LikeWater

General footbag-related topics that don't fit elsewhere go in here.
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Drew
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Post by Drew » 03 Jan 2009 11:02

JoshC. wrote: I think this is a good idea, but the common players should have access to it as well.
I agree. Perhaps you could have strict moderators in order to keep the discussions productive and rolling in the direction you seek.

Either way, good luck. I'd love to see a forum that actually discusses improving aspects of footbag rather than flame wars

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Blue_turnip
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Post by Blue_turnip » 04 Jan 2009 17:06

As long as people who aren't members can view the forum, it's all good.
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King Monkey
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Post by King Monkey » 04 Jan 2009 19:00

Yeh id like to be able to read it even if i cant post.
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Post by sidekick » 05 Jan 2009 00:32

I agree about anyone reading it, just certain people post.
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Post by QuantumBalance » 05 Jan 2009 03:42

King Monkey, are you going to ban the LikeWater username?!?!? I don't think you should. I think you should let the driven people do their work. Anyone else agree?

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Johnny
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Post by Johnny » 05 Jan 2009 05:19

Well for the time being, it won't be able to be read by everyone. But that could change. We're still trying to establish a memberslist and get discussion rolling.
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sidekick
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Post by sidekick » 05 Jan 2009 23:42

Johnny wrote:Well for the time being, it won't be able to be read by everyone. But that could change. We're still trying to establish a memberslist and get discussion rolling.
That's a great idea, I just think that everyone should have access to it. Or maybe just putting the relevant information on Modified...
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Post by Slowsis » 06 Jan 2009 14:13

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Johnny
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Post by Johnny » 06 Jan 2009 17:13

sidekick wrote:
Johnny wrote:Well for the time being, it won't be able to be read by everyone. But that could change. We're still trying to establish a memberslist and get discussion rolling.
That's a great idea, I just think that everyone should have access to it. Or maybe just putting the relevant information on Modified...
The plan is to put all relevant information on the frontpage of likewater.ca. To everyone who thinks they may be missing out on something: so far all I can say is the likewater forum is all work and no play.
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Anz
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Post by Anz » 10 Apr 2009 12:59

Now you can see the whole thing what's up with the LikeWater forum, the first material is out, as we posted a summary from "Overall champion" thread: http://modified.in/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=20160

So if any discussion on LikeWater leads to a certain stage where it can be lead to a conclusion, we'll post the results here so that the rest of the community can get their hands on them. And if it leads to more discussion it can be done on Modified, but there's a good foundation to continue at least.
Still you will not be able see what a certain person has been saying about things, but we'll add the list of names who've been affecting the results.

I know this should also be done on footbag.org, but I don't post there, so we'll figure something out.

For now, feedback about the first conclusion would be appreciated, PM me or post on the LWC (LikeWater Conclusion) thread. And by this I mean feedback from the actual work and summarising style, not the topic of the conclusion :)

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Post by Laroche » 16 Apr 2009 10:04

Anz wrote:Now you can see the whole thing what's up with the LikeWater forum, the first material is out, as we posted a summary from "Overall champion" thread: http://modified.in/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=20160

So if any discussion on LikeWater leads to a certain stage where it can be lead to a conclusion, we'll post the results here so that the rest of the community can get their hands on them. And if it leads to more discussion it can be done on Modified, but there's a good foundation to continue at least.
Still you will not be able see what a certain person has been saying about things, but we'll add the list of names who've been affecting the results.

I know this should also be done on footbag.org, but I don't post there, so we'll figure something out.

For now, feedback about the first conclusion would be appreciated, PM me or post on the LWC (LikeWater Conclusion) thread. And by this I mean feedback from the actual work and summarising style, not the topic of the conclusion :)
So you don't actually want anyone's input on LikeWater's "conclusions", but just want people to validate your work.. :?

I don't really get the whole thing, seems like a lot of self-righteousness and elitism to have a small group spring up out of nowhere and decide they are an authority.... not an official authority, but an authority nonetheless.

The purpose of a separate forum would be for serious discussion, but why can't a subgroup be created on modified called "Rules and Legislation" (preferably something better then that), which everyone can read, but only invited people can post in? At least there will be eyes on the discussion instead of trying to be hoity-toity and keeping it under lock and key.
Last edited by Laroche on 16 Apr 2009 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Slowsis » 16 Apr 2009 10:51

Likewater only has any power if you respect it.

Who has respect for a decision that they have no say in, even if they respect the decision makers?

Not me.
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Post by JoshC. » 16 Apr 2009 16:57

The Oligarchy of Footbag.
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Post by qphox » 16 Apr 2009 21:19

Adam, I can understand that you aren't required to respect LikeWater's conlusions, but what if the conclusions LikeWater reaches are respectable?

It's not like LikeWater is going to conlude that we ban all african americans from competing.

edit: And Nick, Anssi says right there in his post that if there is need for further discussion it can be done here, but at least the foundation is laid. No one is demanding validation.
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Anz
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Post by Anz » 17 Apr 2009 06:15

This is kinda amusing, since no-one ever claimed that LikeWater would have any authority. To me it seems that you think LikeWater has authority because you look up to the people that are on it.

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Laroche
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Post by Laroche » 19 Apr 2009 17:36

Anz wrote:This is kinda amusing, since no-one ever claimed that LikeWater would have any authority. To me it seems that you think LikeWater has authority because you look up to the people that are on it.
By excluding the general population it gives an elitist impression, IMO, regardless of where "further discussion" could be continued. I still don't see why anything posted on likewater couldn't be posted here on modified. If bothersome posts are a problem, create a subgroup, get someone to be a moderator, and bobs your uncle.
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Rieferman
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Post by Rieferman » 20 Apr 2009 05:41

I'm his uncle?

Really though, I agree with the post immediately above by mr. laroche
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy » 21 Apr 2009 20:38

qphox wrote:LikeWater is going to conlude that we ban all african americans from competing.
8O





:lol:



edit; Sorry, couldn't help myself. I have been reading a lot of dishonest quoting lately (non footbag related) and saw the opportunity.

Regarding the actual topic at hand;

I think it's fantastic that a group of people are being pro-active in trying to address problems they see in footbag discourse and create a positive source of information. Full credit to them for taking this step forward. I somewhat agree with some of the criticisms raised by Nick, especially that the discussion could easily happen on modified instead, but I don't really think it's a big problem that they've chosen this different method. There are pros and cons with either approach, and the real test will be in the information they put out - if it's useful and relevant than the process has been a good thing, with a positive outcome, even if we speculate that the same information could have been achieved using an open discussion on modified or .org.

While it's easy to understand the concerns raised about elitism and exclusion, I really don't think they are relevant. As has been pointed out, this isn't a body of any authority - it's just a group of people who wanted to do something positive for the sport and are trying their best to make that happen. Adam made a good point that LW only has power if you respect it. This is completely true. The rest of us may have been excluded from the group, but they'll all be wasting their time if they can't convince the people not in the group of their relevance. If we don't agree with what they have to say, they'll have failed.

Even if that's what happens and the group dies, at least they made an effort to address a problem they perceived, and I think they deserve a lot of credit for that. Footbag seems to have a lot of people in it who are prepared to criticise people's attempts at making things better without taking any real actions of their own. I'd like to see this change to a culture of action.

For the record I'm not a member (for rather hilarious reasons that I'm not going to go into, but I view as a fairly good indication of character on behalf of some people - although I'm unsure if I would have participated even if I were invited, as I have a different opinion on the issue of discourse and propagating information in the footbag community and generally in society).

edit2; I just wanted to add that in no way am I criticising people who don't have time to take any positive actions for footbag - I know that I have hardly any time to do anywhere near as much as I would like to, and I'm sure many people are in the same position. I'm just saying it's a nice change to see people taking a pro-active step forward, and even if I may have some disagreements with their approach, I'm happy to judge them on their results and wait and see what happens before expressing my concerns.

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Post by C-Fan » 22 Apr 2009 05:37

Jeremy wrote: I think it's fantastic that a group of people are being pro-active in trying to address problems they see in footbag discourse and create a positive source of information.

the real test will be in the information they put out - if it's useful and relevant thEn the process has been a good thing, with a positive outcome.
Well said; I agree.

FTR, I'm no longer a member because I had password problems, but I wasn't contributing anyway so no big loss.

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Post by footjam_heger » 22 Apr 2009 22:15

Instead of criticizing and arguing I'd like to say something postitive regarding the LikeWater project.
First of all we should start appreciating those among us who are productive and support footbag in committing their free time (in any kind of support). These people work off their ass to get things done and don't really get anyting in exchange (talking by experience)
Having such an idea and being able to gather ca. 50 top motivated players is a great achievement and should be appreciated by all of us.

Concerning the story modifid-likewater: It is truly obvious that on modified it is sometimes hard to discuss seriously over things when stupid comments disturb the entire topic. A group with the same vision, the same main goals the members want to achieve and who have the knowledge to communicate in a proper way is a very powerful "tool" for the sport.

Why shouldn't a group of active players gather on an other forum to have real discussions? Personally I think people should not be able to read the content of it, otherwise users will start arguing on modified about the conclusions theyd read on likewater. And this really is nonsense. However, LikeWater seems to be a very young project and will probably get in touch with the right people (ifpa, modified etc.) to sort things out. But please let this problem be theirs and not ours.
Anssi could have easily said nothing and everyone would be happy until the day when likewater would present some interesting results, and people would instantly go crazy because of the richness of the achievements... the worst thing that can happen is NO RESULT at all, it will not harm the modified community, so what? Don't be afraid, they won't change rules and stuff...

Once again I'd like to thank the likewatercrew (and all the other supporters) for the effort and may this project end sucessfully.

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