where is everyone?

General footbag-related topics that don't fit elsewhere go in here.
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Rieferman
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where is everyone?

Post by Rieferman » 17 May 2011 09:27

Ok, so I know at some point it became fashionable amongst the "cool" players to decide that this forum is NOT cool anymore. I remember people saying, with a bit of contempt at times, things such as "play instead of surfing modified, sheesh!". I remember flame wars. I remember people disgusted at the immature posters here. I remember people endlessly caring more about being right than about having fun on this forum.

what the f?????????????

Now, I'm sure I'm wasting my breath. I'm just a geezer, and I can't hit 7 add tricks, so my opinion must not count. I get that. But whatever, I'm voicing it anyways.

Firstly... "Cool guys"... get over yourselves. Whether you're a top player that feels like it's your right to be condescending, or the oh-too-busy population. Just get over yourselves.

Secondly... "assholes"... get over youselves. Didn't your momma teach you to be nice, or shut up?

It's like this... for a sport as small as ours, one of the coolest things is that the "superstars" are accessible. Hell, I've had Clavens over to my house, I've had Ales Z. visit my tournament, I've eaten dinner at Kenny's kitchen table..... But how much cooler would it be to see the "greats" posting tips, having a funny conversation, sharing?

Besides the people that play very well, I've met some of the most amazing people through this sport too. And they're too busy or don't see the value in posting either. Really? Are we all so busy? None of us can give props to to a player for achieving a major goal in life? None of us can give a shout out to the guys in Boston? None of us have time to shoot the breeze with the small timer from the middle of nowhere? C'mon people, this is fun!

As for those that just jump on here to be jerks. Remember, it's a small small small world. You honestly have no idea when you'll bump into someone in the real world. Do your future self a favor and think "would the future me be as careless as my current self? is there even the slightest possibility I should just shut the hell up and be normal instead of a jerk?"

I guess all I'm saying is... if footbag is important to us - and it's such a small "us" - and if our "community" is sooooooo amazing as everyone always says.... why on earth aren't we talking? Let's have some fun.

For the next couple weeks, do me a favor.. Make a point of at least once a week posting some encouragement in response to a video, or posting a blog update, or posting an "weekly shred session" update for other players to find. Tell the other players you know to get up here and have some fun.

An active and close-knit community can be enhanced by a fun forum. I see it in my other hobbies, and I used to see it here.

If all else fails, tell me where everyone is talking about footbag these days so I can leave here and go there. (edit: or at least explain to me what Jay is talking about below)
Last edited by Rieferman on 18 May 2011 04:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by jay7 » 17 May 2011 11:04

Sticky.

Footbag is way cooler than Koalas, or multiple Moose. If people happened to talk about how cool it was on the internet, it could be splendid, splendid enough to smile for.

Anssi, is also ridiculously awesome. We should maybe make an e-monument in his honour. Have you seen his dexes? He clears blurriests at his upper thigh.

[edit] In no way was any of that sarcasm. Footbag is 100% extraordinary.
Last edited by jay7 on 17 May 2011 11:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rieferman » 17 May 2011 11:26

I'm honestly not sure if you're making fun of me or what, but I'm glad that you replied any which way. You're actually a good example of a high level player that takes time to comment on videos and give pointers and blog etc. and I think that's good of you to do. There's plenty of time in life to kick, have a job, be in school, be with family, AND keep the community a bit connected using this fancy internet thingermajigger.
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Post by Corey » 17 May 2011 11:39

Which players are not on modified that you would like to see? Most "cool" players are on modified but they do not say anything because well there is nothing to post about.

Have you ever asked for pointers? Landes, Cod, and Ken are all pretty high level players and they give pointers. Not to mention Anz's videos. Oh and Jorden gives tips out like it is his job. PM anybody asking for tips and they give you them. Try it.

It is not that people are busy it is that there is nothing to talk about. Seriously what is the big news that people should being going nuts over? Would this sport really be better if Milan gave props to some kids from Boston? Or if Damian gave props to Tony Sen?

Maybe I am too "new school" but I do not see where you are coming from.

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Post by Rieferman » 17 May 2011 11:49

ha ha, thanks Corey. I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down, but thanks for the suggestion :roll:
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Post by Corey » 17 May 2011 12:01

You totally did not catch my tone. :lol: Or perhaps it is the other way around?
Last edited by Corey on 17 May 2011 15:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dio » 17 May 2011 15:29

Rieferman I don't believe we've met but I've heard about you - anyway, I agree these forums are slow to update and consist of only a handful of regular posters.

Although it would be cool to get more discussion and useful threads going, I am honestly indifferent to who posts and what's on here. It's definitely cool to have these forums but websites like footbag.org and freedomfootbags.com are where I direct people who are interested in the sport. Modified is just too hard to navigate and full of junk for public to spend time here.

The most important part of footbag is the sport itself. Playing over posting :)

ps WHEN IS WORLDS REGISTRATION I DON'T WANT TO MISS IT PLZKTHX

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Post by cd » 17 May 2011 20:34

The footbag.org forum proclaims itself "the real footbag forum" at the top of the page. So maybe that's where all the cool guys hang out?
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Post by Rieferman » 18 May 2011 04:13

Alright, let me try this again…

Traditionally, this sport has been built by the efforts of a small, dedicated few. Aren't we glad that it was?

The efforts of that few felt "worth it" because of the quality of the community, the depth of the relationships.

Over the years, one of the most common comments I've heard from players is that they love the footbag community. Players of all skill levels, shapes, sizes are all accessible. Your friendships span countries around the world.

We have entered an era (not just in footbag) where self centeredness rules, where being aloof is hip, where it's all about "me", where you should "play, not post".

In my opinion, this new era is, at times, at odds with what has made this sport great all along. Young players, believe me when I tell you, it's really really cool to introduce your children to players that you've known for nearly 15 years, since you were a teenager yourself. It's neat to watch a 14 year old kid become an adult over the years, to help a newbie become a star, to be a part of peoples' lives apart from just this game we play. And, truth be told, I try to enjoy these things in all my life interactions, not just hacky sack.

I feel that there are some simple things we can all do that will foster the community. Am I really being a jerk if I state that it's helpful to post some encouragement to newbie's videos? Am I really being too mushy if I say it's worthwhile to keep tabs on other players, to congratulate them when they achieve a life milestone? Is it truly pie in the sky thinking to ask that regular session times be posted so that new players might find our sport? Am I a total nerd for thinking that polite and positive energy should be the absolute rule when we talk to each other?

If you think back over time, have you received encouragement on a video, have you benefited from a session that someone else setup, have you gotten props on a milestone achieved, have you been pleasantly surprised when someone has a polite thoughtful response to a comment? How did it make you feel?

This isn't about what I need or want. I'll never be BAP, I'll never compete again, I'll never host another tournament. For the longest time, I was just "playing for exercise" all by myself in my barn, and was ready to just walk away whenever I damn well felt like it. But I have been reminded (thanks to the young players in my area actually) that the community aspect is really powerful and lasting. I'm at the mentor stage of my footbag career, and I take it seriously. And I think it's good that I do.

So again, all I'm saying is, this forum (and the footbag.org forum, and whatever other resources are being used right now that I’m unaware of) is one possible way to foster the community aspect that I feel is important. Sure, there are other ways too, but it takes nearly zero minutes per day to add a positive drop into the bucket using these resources. If you honestly can't spend that minute... well, ok then.

If y'all disagree and that it's all about "playing, not posting", then I'll quietly drift off into my other hobbies.

Meant with nothing but respect and friendship,
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Post by PoisonTaffy » 18 May 2011 05:18

As someone who doesn't compete or believe I can be anything above a mediocre player at this point, I totally agree and relate to what you say.

As for myself, I feel that it's due to the ratio of casual players to "pro" players in the footbag community being very disproportionate: There aren't a lot of casual players per one pro. Therefore, the community is appreciative only of absurdly high level of play.

If I post an achievement or a video outside my blog on the forum, 90% of the people who see it would be people who'd consider it an extremely weak achievement. Aware of this fact, I naturally choose not to post. I have no community of casual players like myself to post to.
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Post by C-Fan » 18 May 2011 11:57

1. I think an active modified is a laudable goal. It was certainly a more fun place back when that was the case.

2. I also appreciate that you (bob) are trying to do something about it.

3. I think a successful website/forum requires a critical mass of active posters to get it going, and then to maintain momentum. At it's height, modified had several active posters posting every day. That level of activity was contagious and encouraged others to interact and participate. I think the problem with modified now, is that it lacks that critical mass of dedicated posters.

4. I anticipate that it will be difficult to achive that critical mass. Footbag is a small community to begin with, and most of it is aware of modified. A part of the community has probably decided it's not worth coming here anymore, and they probably won't (combination of "been there, done that" and "it used to be better"). There's also probably a segment of the community that would come here if it were lively and active, but who aren't because it's dead lately. So that leaves only a few die hards, as well as a few new enthusiasts (e.g. Nick Polini).

5. With just those last two groups posting, we won't have critical mass. Even if members of these two groups post more, I don't see that solving the problem.

6. Did top players stop posting here because they thought they were too cool? Maybe. It's also possible they maybe burned out on footbag. Maybe they burned out on the flame wars, or on the mindless adulation they received online. Regardless of why they stopped posting, I have the impression (based on nothing, fwiw) that a lot of them are gone and not ghosting. In other words, I'm guessing the problem isn't that they read modified and don't post, so much as they probably don't even look at modified at all anymore. If my suspicion is correct, it'll be a lot harder to get them back.

7. While modified is a shell of it's former self, I still enjoy having one stop shopping for new videos, tourney results/announcements, and my friends' blogs. That's why I still come here, still post here. Life and work have gotten busier than they used to be, so there's not as much time, but you make time for the things you enjoy.

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Post by SlashC » 18 May 2011 13:21

I think in general we have less active players in the community than we've had in the past. Also, this smaller amount of players now has more choices for places to post about footbag online. I have definitely noticed that posting on the various facebook pages has been on the rise while posting on modified has decreased. I think it also doesn't help that the type of services required of a footbag community (videos, photos, music, chat, ect) are not completely provided for by modified. Players need to use a multitude of services and then link back to modified. For example, if you posted a video on youtube, comments could show up on a facebook feed, a modified thread, or directly on youtube. This takes a lot of effort and makes it difficult to keep track of what's going on in the community.

One possible solution is to use a website that consolidates all these features into one website: Here is a somewhat clunky, but highly active site from the hooping community:
http://www.hoopcity.ca/

Basically its similar to facebook, but especially geared to comprehensively meet the requirements of a specific community.
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Post by habitat » 18 May 2011 13:24

I might suspect that some people have become indifferent with communication over the internet. It's faceless, emotionless, easy to misinterpret and there is no real human connection. It's not about being cool, it's probably more so that real life communication and activity is a better use of one's time. When I see that people are still arguing about the add system, I want to fucking shoot myself. Plus, this is a phpbb forum. It's not particularly pretty or friendly to use by any means. (EDIT: Exactly what Rory just said.)

Also, maybe some footbag players don't want to be part of the footbag "online community" or just want to play for their own reasons outside of building clubs, watching videos and encouraging others, or trying to recruit players. Personally, I consider myself a footbag player and I play for my own sense of self-expression. Being part or not part of a community has no affect on my footbag playing.

Put me down for the just play and do what you like category. Internet participation does not mean anything. How long can one talk about footbag on the internet without getting extremely bored of hearing the same shit over and over? It may seem hard for some to grasp, but footbag is kind of boring if you aren't actually playing.
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Post by Allan » 18 May 2011 14:53

I wish modified a long life. This forum will always have it's place, but there's a lot more going on out there on the web for footbag than just this installation of phpBB.

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Post by Dave Soderberg » 18 May 2011 18:16

I come to modified for the videos, and that's it anymore. I think there is already plenty of information on this site for anyone who needs help, and if you really want a PM from a pro, I'm sure they would be glad to answer you

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Post by Rieferman » 19 May 2011 04:20

allan wrote:
there's a lot more going on out there on the web for footbag than just this installation of phpBB.
I don't care about the technology side of it, and don't really know what phpBB and all that jazz is, but I'm interested in what these other resources for building community are. Is it just facebook? Or are there others too? Could you list some here, perhaps I should spend my energy there as it does not seem the energy is well spent here. (I'm honestly asking, not intending to be a wise ass in any way)

dave wrote:
I come to modified for the videos, and that's it anymore. I think there is already plenty of information on this site for anyone who needs help, and if you really want a PM from a pro, I'm sure they would be glad to answer you
You come for videos, yet I don't remember seeing you provide feedback. PM's from a pro? Have you read what I wrote? This is not about ME at all. A PM from a pro does not approach the meaning of community that I'm writing about (and writing about rather clearly I thought). The argument that anyone can just search for answer to a question again does not approach the meaning of community that I'm writing about (and writing about rather clearly I thought).

habitat wrote a bunch of interesting stuff, as follows:
I might suspect that some people have become indifferent with communication over the internet. It's faceless, emotionless, easy to misinterpret and there is no real human connection.
That's a good point and could definitely be the case. But it doesn't need to be the case. My point is that we can choose to use this tool. If we do some really easy things, it can be fun. And fun is good ain't it? Getting props or tips on a video or because you graduated college is fun. Getting a barrage (pun!) of "cheer up" messages when your cat dies is nice. Posting that you'll be in XYZ state and getting 10 replies of "shred with me while you're in town!" is awesome. None of these things is me asking all of you to post endlessly about add discussions etc.
When I see that people are still arguing about the add system, I want to fucking shoot myself.
Honestly, me too. But, on the other hand, part of being a non-newbie is that we know a bunch of stuff and might have to answer "has this been hit yet" and "what's the best footbag" and "are there special shoes for this" questions endlessly. As annoying as it can feel, I try to remind myself that I asked those same exact damn questions once! And, I've answered these same exact questions for guys that have become long time dedicated players. So, it's worth it for me (although I admit I allow others to pay their dues and answer the questions now as I've done my fair share..... but if no one picks up the torch, a nice daisy chain of information passing dies).


Personally, I consider myself a footbag player and I play for my own sense of self-expression. Being part or not part of a community has no affect on my footbag playing.
I get that, I respect that (and respect you being honest about it). On the other hand, if you found yourself visiting "west of Philly" wouldn't it be fun if we could kick some bag and have some food after? Maybe not, perhaps you think I'm a total dork and wouldn't like that at all. But if you'd like that, and if it's reasonable to assume that lots of players would like that, my argument is that we all can help by participating in resources like this forum. We're all here afterall (else you wouldn't be replying) so how much extra effort is it?

Again, I'm NOT saying that this stinking forum is the be all, end all solution. I'm just suggesting that we're here and we're reading already... does it really hurt anything to participate rather than lurk?


SlashC wrote:
I think in general we have less active players in the community than we've had in the past. Also, this smaller amount of players now has more choices for places to post about footbag online. I have definitely noticed that posting on the various facebook pages has been on the rise while posting on modified has decreased.
That may be true (that we have less players), but I'm not sure about that. I've seen "little freestyle jams" end up with 40 players recently... and of those 40 players, I'd only ever met like 15 of them. That's a nice bunch of new guys.

I think new guys thirst for becoming part of the group, and that it's really neat to be able to show up to an event and people are like "it's awesome to finally meet you in person!!! how's your atomic set coming along?".

If that's happening on facebook and other places instead of here, I didn't know that. If I didn't know that (and I'd like to think that I'm somewhat "in the know") others don't either. Perhaps we should reorganize our effort to whatever resource IS being used. Any ideas on how to do that effectively? (because the footbag.org forum doesn't seem to be it, and based on the resistance in this thread, this forum isn't either)

edit: sorry, you did offer a website as a possible solution, thank you for doing that.. guys that are more techy or cooler/more in touch than me are better to say whether they'd use that instead of this.

Poison Taffy wrote:
I feel that it's due to the ratio of casual players to "pro" players in the footbag community being very disproportionate: There aren't a lot of casual players per one pro. Therefore, the community is appreciative only of absurdly high level of play.
A really interesting hypothesis. I think it's true that the number of players that stick with it long enough to become "good" and entrenched is far lower than the number that try it in the first place (which is a low number to begin with). That's part of what makes the community aspect important in my opinion.

At my first footbag event, I could hit toe stall and mirage. That was it. One side only. Steve and Vince and Sam and Eric welcomed me into the community. I got emails from them (there was no forum at that time) answering my ridiculously simple and eager questions. I had no talent for the game, no real potential. But this community aspect was so neat, that I stayed around. Now, again, I'll never win a pro competition, but I'm pretty darned good at this game now. I've used it for so much. And it's all because of those early, easy communications that ocurred.

My point being that "growing the sport" and "abadoning community" are at total odds with each other. Not giving a shit about that because "you have yours already" (the general "you" not poison taffy) or 'it's played out by now" is just plain selfish and sad in my opinion.

If I'm totally wrong, and I don't think I am, sorry to waste everyone's time (all 233 views worth of time on this thread?!?!?). If this community is being developed someplace else, well, for goodness sake, let's get the freaking word out to everyone (if I don't know about it, so many others don't either).
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Post by Frank_Sinatra » 19 May 2011 08:56

I don't have a lot to add, except that yes modified has been in a long slow decline in terms of participation. I don't really know if that's good or bad, but I also don't feel like its my job (or anyone's job) to save modified.

Websites come and go.

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Post by sen » 19 May 2011 09:58

It's not your job. It's not Bob's job. It's not my job.

But as members of community we can, out of our fondness for said community, pitch in a bit to help keep it alive and well. Think of modified as a Community Hall. And the footbag players who visit it as a neighborhood. The community hall is low on funds and will be shut down or demolished because it can't afford to keep it's doors open. When that happens the neighborhood that used the hall would do something to try to save the place where they hang out and hold functions. It wouldn't be any one person that did it. It would be a community effort. And it wouldn't take a lot of effort. A few dollars and maybe a few hours of ones life. To save modified we don't even need to do expend that much effort. As stated, we're here already. Look at most video thread's view:post ratio. Some of that is surely the same person visiting multiple times and whatnot, but as has been pointed out earlier, a lot of people are viewing the video's and not commenting at all. I know I'm guilty of that a lot. So for the ones don't comment... Do we not like the video? Is that why we can't spend the few seconds to even say we appreciated the time spent filming and editing? Personally, I am going to be more thoughtful about doing this in the future.

And I agree that if there is somewhere else on the web where footbag is happening I'd love to know about it. I am a member of the "footbag" group on facebook and don't see a whole lot happening there. Is there somewhere else I should go. I wouldn't be opposed to a new Community Hall if it was better, but I don't want to loose the one we have if nothing replaces it.

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Post by Frank_Sinatra » 19 May 2011 11:14

Well, I've been asked to elaborate, so here goes.

First, I find myself having very little to say about a lot of footbag topics. More so with every year. I've talked to a lot of people who feel the same way, and even though they are still involved in their way, they just don't visit modified.

Second, modified is not the community. A lot goes on that never will/never should be on modified, and I see no problem with that. If the problem here is that we're worried about the communal aspect of footbag falling apart, then modified's decline is only a symptom.

Third, like others have stated, there are a lot of different tools - facebook, youtube, actually calling people and telling them about a session - that people are using to build community.

Fourth, modified is just one of the many ways in which we "ghettoize" footbag. We put ourselves off into a little world where nobody can find us & outsiders aren't that welcome (I mean, modified.in? Honestly? You already have to be "in the club" to even know it exists).

If there are features of modified that people feel work well, and others that don't then let's have that conversation. It seems like a few shred symposium threads, videos, journeys, and footblogs get almost all of the action. Can we/should we get rid of some subforums? Should some be merged? I'm asking for people who care about modified to offer input about what they want the community hall to look like.

IMO, the urgent issue we have in footbag is our local scenes are steadily dying. How many clubs are there anymore? How many clubs/scenes have regular sessions? How many people just play in their basements, by themselves, all year? Everything else that people want to do in terms of recognition, sponsorship, money, popularity, etc. is not going to be happen if people can't even put semi-regular local sessions together.

In my experience the internet does not play much of a role in getting a local scene together. Figuring out people's schedules, and calling people and seeing if they'll come play, and having fun, is what keeps a local scene together. To me, that is what is most important in footbag right now.

EDIT: I just want to add, that I have definitely benefited from modified in a lot of ways. I get introduced to players & learn about them before I ever met them, and stay in touch with their progress. I like that. I've also gotten a lot of encouragement and tips from people through modified, which I am extremely grateful for. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to say "to hell with modified its never done anything for me." I'm just trying to say that I hope nobody gets too bent out of shape over whatever does or does not happen with modified.

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Post by Muffinman » 19 May 2011 12:45

Fourkast could be a great footbag website. The biggest missing factor is the users -- nobody goes there except when articles or videos are specifically linked from Modified.

Fourkast has a lot of what the popular social networks have. You can host videos (that don't get muted due to copyrighted music!) and photos. You can buy equipment. There are forums for discussion. Every user has a profile and a "wall". Every user has a blog. And everything is comments-enabled and trackable like Facebook. So you can comment on others' videos and blog posts and such, and follow your friends and their activity on the website.

I didn't read everything in this thread, but I know this was addressed, especially in Rory's post about having a website that accommodates the specific needs of the sport. Fourkast pretty much has it.

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