Request contest

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Add Block
BSOS Beast
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Request contest

Post by Add Block » 06 Sep 2014 04:41

What's up ladies and gentlemen. Request contest is my favourite competition in footbag, but they've all been absolutely crap, except maybe the one at Euros in Russia. There are certain rules, I think I read them somewhere or I made them up as they made sense. Either way, I'd like to present to you my own 'perfect request'. Now obviously this is just my opinion and if you disagree, give feedback.


Round 1: Knee Kick > Inside Stall or Toe Stall > Clipper Stall (1 > 1 or 1 > 2)

First combo is toe based, second clipper based. This is how it should be. Not exactly like toe/clipper, but each combo should be one of the two main styles in footbag. First one being the Clipper, Butterfly, Ducking, Spinning kind of style, second one being the DEX heavy, Pixie, DATW, Atomic kind of style. Obviously, from 5ADDs onward, this is impossible since the tricks require mastering both.

This does encourage versatility, as one of them should be harder than the other. So you can try Toe combos all the way, but half the time, you'll have a harder time and vice versa.


Round 2: ATW > Inside Kick or Toe Kick > Clipper Kick (2 > 1 or 1 > 1)

This time, the clipper combo is easier, but overall difficulty is the same as round 1. It is important to start off slowly, not only because of new players, but to also potential catch experienced players off guard. It's important to have the basic stuff down.


Round 3: Orbit > Legover or Clipper Stall > Near Pickup (2 > 2 or 2 > 2)

A transition round, both combos are of equal difficulty.


Round 4: SS Mirage > Illusion or Butterfly > SS Mirage (2 > 2 or 3 > 2)

Clipper combo is harder, this will swap in the next round.


Round 5: DATW > Pickup or Alternating Clipper (3 > 2 or 2 > 2)

Clippers again, but I wouldn't worry about repeating tricks. The main thing when learning new stuff is hitting it from and to different tricks. So links are usually more important than actual tricks.


Round 6: PLO > Eggbeater or Whirl > Osis (3 > 3 or 3 > 3)

Another transition round before 4ADD. Now, I don't really like ADDs, but this is a casual competition and ADDs are quite helpful here. It's not really ruined by them. Next round is where the combos are starting to be using both styles.


Round 7: Tap > DLO or Ducking Mirage > Infinity (3 > 3 or 4 > 3)


Round 8: Butterfly > Blur or Spinning Clipper > Pdx Mirage (3 > 4 or 3 > 3)


Round 9: Dimwalk > Pdx Eggbeater or Ripwalk > Dyno (4 > 4 or 4 > 4)



Notice how I use tricks like Ripwalk, Ducking Clipper, PLO and other tricks that you experienced players keep telling us to practice. They never show up in contest, so why did you tell me to practice them? Instead, I am going to fail on some Quantum or Fairy nonsense.

So that part was I think kind of reasonable. Now there's other stuff that I'd like to see, but this is completely just based on what I like.
Firstly, I'd like it if the combos were released two months in advance. To me, that just makes it a much better competition. I'd love to practice for that.

Secondly, I think football freestyle does Request better. They call it Challenge if you want to google it. The general concept is, you have a choice between two combos, as we do. But they are not links, they'd rather say, do X tricks with this one concept in a combo. So in our case it would be: Do 5 (unique) Atomic tricks in a guiltless combo, not necessarily after each other.



So that's it, I don't expect these concept to ever kick in. I'm simply putting it here because I'd like people to tell me what they think about it.
I hate bad form and I'm a hypocrite.

Vojta

Matt K
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Re: Request contest

Post by Matt K » 08 Sep 2014 09:03

I disagree that all Requests have been crap; I'd say the vast majority of the one's I've participated in have been totally fine and a lot of fun.

I also disagree that the links should be released before the contest starts. Part of the fun and challenge of Request is that you don't know what's coming.

I think the mentality of "practice this concept because you're going to use it in this competition" isn't the best in general for footbag, but it especially does not apply to Request. It's a weird offshoot event that is always unofficial and is designed to challenge you on the spot to hit tricks/links that you don't normally do or think of. If you look at the winners, they are usually players who have mastered/excelled at the most concepts, and who are consistent enough to hit them within a small number of tries.

Making all of the combos use standard tricks and links is very boring and not challenging to most people. I imagine if the contest that you've outlined was run, the only players who would be eliminated would be ones who are simply not at the level to be hitting those tricks, which is not very interesting and will happen regardless of the kind of links you put in.

You can open up any random video and see every player doing Butterfly>Blur or Spinning Clipper>Mirage, but how often do you see something like Diving Pickup>SS Symple Swirl? It's not wildly challenging and most players could probably do this without too much trouble, but the fact that it's not a standard link is what makes it exciting and challenging to see/do on the spot.

I will agree that it is challenging to increase the difficulty round-to-round in a completely smooth way, but with something as subjective as the difficulty of each trick and each link it's never going to be perfect.

I'm not familiar with how Request works in football, but I will say that there is a lot of opportunity to do a lot of variations on Request (I helped put one together that was a "One trick, both sides" request) that could be a lot of fun and you could easily make one similar to what you described with doing one concept in a string.
Matt Kemmer

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Cass
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Re: Request contest

Post by Cass » 08 Sep 2014 10:01

Great post Matt!

Request is my favourite. I've had the opportunity to participate in a number of request contests run by Ianek, the inventor of the competition. He does a great job with them.

I just want to add that for each round one link should be toe-based and the other clipper based. I like this idea because that way people with strong clipper games aren't necessarily favoured over a strong toe player and vice versa.

The weird and unexpected request links and the laidback nature of competition is what makes it the most fun event!!

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BSOS Beast
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Re: Request contest

Post by Add Block » 08 Sep 2014 12:40

Releasing the combos in advance and the nature of tricks is subjective, and if most people want weird tricks, I have no problem assimilating. Requests I have participated in have been good, but only from a certain level.

I think I worded things badly. I was mainly concerned about the first couple of combos. My issue is, they're always designed by a skilled player, with little insight to newbies' life. The latter, harder combos have been fine by me.
The skill gradient is always too high. At Todexon, there were several new players, but only I took part, as they all knew they were going to fail at 2nd combo, even though they're guiltless usually. Yes, it is their fault to have a gap in trick selection, but that second combo should have been 5-6th.

It's not acceptable to make Request reach fearless by Round 5 and then complain about this sport being harsh on new players.
I hate bad form and I'm a hypocrite.

Vojta

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Jeremy
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Re: Request contest

Post by Jeremy » 09 Sep 2014 16:00

"Notice how I use tricks like Ripwalk, Ducking Clipper, PLO and other tricks that you experienced players keep telling us to practice. They never show up in contest, so why did you tell me to practice them? Instead, I am going to fail on some Quantum or Fairy nonsense."


Because you need to learn those tricks to be able to do harder tricks. They're foundation tricks. I can't stress enough the importance of getting solid basics before you start working on harder things. Request comp is about challenging players, so it's going to spend less time on the basics and more time on the things that players might find challenging. Another thing to consider is time management. In running events you usually do have limited time per event. In many cases you may have a large crowd that isn't familiar with footbag too. You want to make sure the events are progressing quickly. I would consider a good request comp list one that tends to knock a few players out each round.

The other thing I notice in this is that I find in footbag, much more than any other sport I've played, there's a real attitude of trying to make things easier or reducing competition. The division between intermediate and open is a good example. If you take up another sport, you're bound to compete against teams or individuals that are much better than you, and get absolutely smashed. To me, that seems like a natural part of sport. It amazes me that people don't compete because they won't win. I guess it must depend on what kind of sports you grew up playing, if any. I've always found that competing against the best is one of the best ways of learning. Perhaps that's less so in individual sports, but even in footbag I've found that. You pay more attention to what people are doing, and why they're successful if you're competing against them.

In my first sick 3 I hit Blur>Dimwalk>Clipper, while Lynton Stephens hit Alpine Legbeater>Blurriest>Mobius. I didn't feel somehow ashamed or humiliated by the gap between us. I thrived on the experience, and was motivated to practice a lot harder. I felt like we had a shared experience, competing together, and although I wasn't up to his standard, I had a better idea of what the standard I needed to get to was. I think it's worth it just to compete, even if you know you'll finish last, and I think if you look at the top footbaggers in the world, now and in the past, most of them are hyper competitive, which is the same in any sport. For many people, competing and wanting to be better than other people will be their driving motivation. Competitions should foster that. If people are motivated by something other than competition, then there's no need to manipulate the competition format to them. They don't need it in any format.

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F[uns]tylin' Eclectic
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Re: Request contest

Post by F[uns]tylin' Eclectic » 09 Sep 2014 19:06

Requests make you a more well-rounded player. I have used my "request fails" to my advantage. Every time I get out on a combo, I let it burn my guts and make sure I never miss it again. I drill it so heavily, so that next time, if that request were to miraculously come up, I would not have the same problem anymore.

AddBlock, since you are one of Vasek's students, you should appreciate that quite a bit... "Vdecnost".. appreciation that you have found a hole in your game and now know how to fix it.
Nick Polini

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Add Block
BSOS Beast
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Re: Request contest

Post by Add Block » 09 Sep 2014 20:43

Thanks for the post, Jeremy. I do feel, however, that in Request and Sick 3, you're kind of playing against yourself, as the goals to continue are set. I've never been in a competition where there'd be enough players to divide between Open and Intermediate, so newer players always get 3 BAPs in their circle, so as to have them in the final circle. That makes sense, but it mean we're getting humiliated. And considering I can just shred with those guys after the competition, I fail to see the point.
Sick 3 is actually fine, you just do your thing and you're done. You can only impress, but you're setting the combos for your own level and style.
It's not bad to make the tricks increase in difficulty quickly if you don't have enough time. It's just awful not to keep that rate constant. If you make the first five rounds each jump by 1ADD and then slowly get from 5 to 7 ADDs within the next 10 combos, that's just sad.

Nick, if Stepping Pickup or Pixie Guay comes up, I'd be happy, I don't have a problem with tricks that no one actually does. I have trained these tricks to make my Pixie/Stepping better and in case they come up in Request. But if Quantum comes up in early levels, that's not found a gap in my game, that whole concept never was in my game at all yet.
I hate bad form and I'm a hypocrite.

Vojta

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F[uns]tylin' Eclectic
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Re: Request contest

Post by F[uns]tylin' Eclectic » 09 Sep 2014 21:14

Add Block wrote:That makes sense, but it means we're getting humiliated. And considering I can just shred with those guys after the competition, I fail to see the point.
There are always those first few rounds to get the beginners involved and feeling good about being able to do a few levels or Request. But of course you're going to get knocked out if you're not very well-versed in high level links. Don't look at it as getting humiliated, just look at it as "Damn, still not good enough to get to those higher levels. Gotta train harder for the next jam." Also, I sort of look at Requests as being just like your personal footbag career. Here I go, quoting Vasek again... "be opean thankful and always try to go true outline and put the flag there…". You keep moving your flag further up the line in your personal game. I feel Requests is the same.. You get to level 5 then you are eliminated... If you train hard and get to level 6 or 7 next time you attend a tournament/jam, you know you have moved your flag forward, and therefore, improved in several areas of your game.


Add Block wrote:But if Quantum comes up in early levels, that's not found a gap in my game, that whole concept never was in my game at all yet.
I have the same problem. My Quantum sets are weak, as well. But if Quantum comes up, then you always have that other link choice to fall back on. If you suck at something in each, then choose the one in which you suck least. If you get eliminated but that, then you know what to drill.
Nick Polini

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"Yeah dude it's all mental. Then it's physical" ~Evan Gatesman

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Jeremy
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Re: Request contest

Post by Jeremy » 09 Sep 2014 22:21

Quantum is what gets me through the competition :P

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Cass
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Re: Request contest

Post by Cass » 10 Sep 2014 02:52

At USO my circle was quite a high level. I never stood a chance of advancing. I did however play to the best of my ability and actually view that as one of my best competitions ever despite coming dead last. There is no 'humiliation' if you present yourself with dignity.

Similarly I was out within the first few rounds of my first several request contests. Since I became a more well rounded and consistent player I have been able to get as far as the seventh combo. Getting better at request is not a matter of drilling specific links or combos. This kind of defeats the purpose. It's simply a matter of being able to hit a wide variety of concepts. If you only focus your game around a select few concepts you will not have as much success in this competition and that's how it ought to be.

Add Block
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Re: Request contest

Post by Add Block » 10 Sep 2014 04:36

Nick, you're still under the impression that Request is linear. The problem I have with it, is that it's not. If you fail Round 2, you can train a bit, get to Round 4-5 next time. Then, for the next two years you keep failing at level 5. After those two years, you suddenly fail at level 15, because 5-15 aren't that different from each other.
This example is exaggerated, but it's my main one, and the only that no one's debunked. The only explanation of it I was given so far was 'there is not enough time'. Which is fair enough, but time can be conserved in many other more considerate ways.

This is an example of a good Request. And by example I, sadly, mean the only one I've seen that I know I would enjoy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f18zON5y4E[/youtube]
I hate bad form and I'm a hypocrite.

Vojta

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