No new BAP since 2014

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No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 08 Aug 2016 10:16

Worlds 2016 just ended, and no new BAP inductions. Given that USO and Euros are done as well, I think it's safe to say that there is no BAP class of 2016, just as there was no BAP class of 2015. 2014 only saw a single BAP inductee in Matthias Blau.

The question I pose to Modified is: what does this mean?

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Tjuggles » 08 Aug 2016 16:43

I think one thing it means is the scene is ready for something new.
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Derek » 10 Aug 2016 03:22

Doesn't mean a thing. Other than there hasn't been someone good/popular enough to win the elite popularity contest.

Don't care if I sound like a madman:

Talked with Jim about this a fair amount. Most new players(In this day and age) start in their 20's, and other than a few, not many have started in their teens.
Footbag, itself, is still young. I'd like to think of Footbag, as a whole, as a player (If that makes sense). Like, when it first started, up until early 90's, Footbag was in the kick/stall phase. From the 90's to ~2003, big leaps were made, and it became Tiltless. Now, I feel like the sport is at Guiltless level. Ever since Vasek (And others) wrecked lives and paved the way. Getting good enough to make Footbag, as a whole, go to the Tripless level is going to take a lot of time. Just wait, BIG things are coming to Footbag. Believe me.

Makes sense in my head, but I am deranged.
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 11 Aug 2016 10:34

The same question came up on Facebook, and ended up in a very spirited discussion. I think the conclusion we all agreed to, was that BAP should lower its standards so everybody can get in.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Derek » 11 Aug 2016 10:51

Psalms: 91 "Everyone gets BAP."
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Tjuggles » 11 Aug 2016 17:19

C-Fan wrote:The same question came up on Facebook, and ended up in a very spirited discussion. I think the conclusion we all agreed to, was that BAP should lower its standards so everybody can get in.
...or perhaps be explicit and specific about what its standards are? On http://www.bigaddposse.com for example, it says:

The Big ADD Posse (BAP) are a group of skilled freestyle footbag players who have contributed to the progression of that sport in a unique way. The group is invite-only, and the only way to get an invitation is to shred hard in front of other members and prove your style.

So in order to get into BAP, one needs to

1. Contribute to the sport in a unique way,
2. Shred hard in front of other BAP members, and
3. Prove their style (this could be part of point 2 depending on how the above excerpt is read)

How many current members of BAP contributed in a 'unique' way? How? What does 'unique' mean here, that someone has done something innovative? New? For point 2, how "hard" does one need to shred in front of other BAP members? Guiltless? One long string of 3-minute tiltless shred? What if no BAP members are around, does the shred still make a sound? Finally, how does one prove their style, stick with shredding for a long time to develop their own style? I'm getting confused. Is this what we have to go on or are there other points somewhere? I am not on Facebook so perhaps have missed a lot...

I think what the above suggests is that perhaps by giving interested parties more explicit goals to head towards, more will get there.

PS I think "The Big ADD Posse (BAP) are a group..." should be "The Big ADD Posse (BAP) is a group..." on the website. ;)
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Allan » 11 Aug 2016 20:49

Tjuggles wrote: ...or perhaps be explicit and specific about what its standards are?
Good luck getting anyone to agree on that :) BAP are a diverse bunch with an extreme range of opinion.
Tjuggles wrote: On http://www.bigaddposse.com for example, it says:
Please take that with a HUGE grain of salt. I wrote that myself with no editing or editorial approval from anyone, and I personally may not even have the best understanding of what BAP is or is not; I'm a relative outsider to the group.
Tjuggles wrote: How many current members of BAP contributed in a 'unique' way? How?
All of them. How? By hitting cool shit :) Unique combos and tricks that have never been done, or maybe not done that way. It IS definitely hard to quantify, but to players at that level, there's a ... smell? Like Ken referenced in E2 of The Symposium, the US Supreme Court judge defining "obscenity:" we know it when we see it.
Tjuggles wrote:What does 'unique' mean here, that someone has done something innovative? New?
Basically, yes.
Tjuggles wrote:For point 2, how "hard" does one need to shred in front of other BAP members?
As far as I can tell, it's almost entirely subjective. There are no hard and fast rules. If they've changed anything, it'd be the first I'd heard of it. But the intent in using the word "hard" there is that there is an expectation that you're playing confidently and essentially making people take notice ... it sounds aggressive when I put it like that, I guess, but it is what it is.
Tjuggles wrote:What if no BAP members are around, does the shred still make a sound?
Ha! :lol:
Tjuggles wrote: Finally, how does one prove their style,
They show up. They throw down. They don't care. Not not "caring" you know? But putting on some sort of campaign to get inducted can be ... I dunno, ingratiating? Most importantly is that they just show up and they shred as hard or harder than whoever they're playing with.
Tjuggles wrote: stick with shredding for a long time to develop their own style? I'm getting confused. Is this what we have to go on or are there other points somewhere? I am not on Facebook so perhaps have missed a lot...
You're assuming a level of officiality that isn't there and never was. It started as just a bunch of guys who once felt persecuted and ignored and banded together to push the sport in a particular direction. They were misfits, but they ended up changing everything. It quickly morphed from that small fringe group that started it and, I think most of the guys would agree, grew kind of out of control where people outside the group place more meaning and importance into the concept than was ever really intended.
Tjuggles wrote:I think what the above suggests is that perhaps by giving interested parties more explicit goals to head towards, more will get there.
Competitions provide explicit goals. IFPA provides explicit goals. Ianek's badges or a concept like that can provide goals. I wouldn't really care if some of the guys got together and made some goals, but I don't really see the point in trying.
Tjuggles wrote: PS I think "The Big ADD Posse (BAP) are a group..." should be "The Big ADD Posse (BAP) is a group..." on the website. ;)
I will fix that soon. Thanks for pointing it out :)

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Tjuggles » 12 Aug 2016 00:36

Great reply, Allan!
Allan wrote:
Tjuggles wrote: ...or perhaps be explicit and specific about what its standards are?
Good luck getting anyone to agree on that :) BAP are a diverse bunch with an extreme range of opinion.
Good point. I think your subsequent discussion gives more information about what went into BAP in the first place which is nice.
Allan wrote: Please take that with a HUGE grain of salt. I wrote that myself with no editing or editorial approval from anyone, and I personally may not even have the best understanding of what BAP is or is not; I'm a relative outsider to the group.
Haha, awesome.
Allan wrote:
TJ wrote: How many current members of BAP contributed in a 'unique' way? How?
All of them. How? By hitting cool shit :) Unique combos and tricks that have never been done, or maybe not done that way. It IS definitely hard to quantify, but to players at that level, there's a ... smell? Like Ken referenced in E2 of The Symposium, the US Supreme Court judge defining "obscenity:" we know it when we see it.
Yup, I know what you mean. It is definitely hard to put into words. Perhaps trying to put it into words might lead to something different than not putting into words (as the case has been)?

Allan wrote:
Tjuggles wrote: stick with shredding for a long time to develop their own style? I'm getting confused. Is this what we have to go on or are there other points somewhere? I am not on Facebook so perhaps have missed a lot...
You're assuming a level of officiality that isn't there and never was. It started as just a bunch of guys who once felt persecuted and ignored and banded together to push the sport in a particular direction. They were misfits, but they ended up changing everything. It quickly morphed from that small fringe group that started it and, I think most of the guys would agree, grew kind of out of control where people outside the group place more meaning and importance into the concept than was ever really intended.
Great piece of information!
Allan wrote:
Tjuggles wrote:I think what the above suggests is that perhaps by giving interested parties more explicit goals to head towards, more will get there.
Competitions provide explicit goals. IFPA provides explicit goals. Ianek's badges or a concept like that can provide goals. I wouldn't really care if some of the guys got together and made some goals, but I don't really see the point in trying.
I think points could include
1. Learning more about BAP,
2. Learning how to get BAP-tized,
3. Motivating those looking for new motivation (or just a boost), and
4. Simply seeing it on paper.
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Asmus » 12 Aug 2016 01:33

Honestly, I don't think it is a big mystery and I think some of the appeal is that it is a little mysterious. I have been right 90% of the time about who would get into BAP when I have been at Euros or Worlds.

These are the factors I have gone by, that seems to be right most of the time. To get into BAP you have to:
1. Play a lot of sideline
2. Hold your own in a circle with top level BAP players
3. Do good in competition (finals)
4. Have some sort of wow/x-factor (this is what Allan calls unique)

Let's take to examples of people who haven't gotten into BAP (but is close) and why they did not get in:

1. Jakub Mościszewski
He can check of 1 and 3 for sure. He is maybe lacking a bit in number 2 and I still feel like he needs to find his own style and flavor to check of in number 4.

2. Jakob Wagner
He can check everything (with number 2 lacking some huge tricks) except number 3.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 12 Aug 2016 10:00

Tjuggles wrote: What if no BAP members are around, does the shred still make a sound?
:lol: That was great. Nice.

It sounds now like we may create "Junior BAP," which will be easier to get into. I've proposed the following logo, but I can't say it's official yet:


Image

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by boyle » 13 Aug 2016 03:08

It is interesting that some people seem deeply concerned about it, particularly on that Facebook thread. In each year, there should only be about 5 people in the world who will be in contention, and only a couple of them will actually make it to the competitions.

I don't think you can make it to BAP if you're not at a major event (Worlds, USO, Euros). I thought someone would get an honourable mention. There were 3 last year, and Taishi had that the year before. I think from this year though not being there, maybe Taishi, Alex and Jakub would be up for the honourable mention.

I'm sure someone will be pushing for it next year, I have the feeling that more people in the USA are more motivated by the whole BAP thing.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 16 Aug 2016 10:43

That was a pretty entertaining thread for sure. Cutting through all the jokes, there were a few interesting points that were raised I thought.

1. Is it possible to reach the current BAP level, if you didn't start playing when you were 13-15 years old? Rory raised this question, and I think it's a good one. Look at the top players in the World (Vasek, Evan, Jindra, Milan, Penske, etc.) and the recent BAP classes (Matthias, etc.) and see how old they all were when they started. How many players are there now who are at this level who started in their 20s? Do we expect to see any?

2. Related to item #1, is the current BAP level too high? If achieving this level is realistically unobtainable for everybody other than teenagers, is that demotivating? In the mid to late 90s, BAP level was something a dedicated player could obtain, but now that may no longer be the case.

3. And the underlying question that is at the heart of all these issues is: what function does BAP serve? Related to this, what function did BAP serve in the past? Is it meant to inspire players to improve? If so, it could be argued that it served that function in the past, but no longer does (see previous bullets). On a more philosophical level, does BAP need to have a function in the sport, or can it just be a sign of recognition for a very select few?

4. Finally, my favorite question, which I have asked since at least Worlds 2003. Why do people care whether or not they get invited into BAP? If a random subsection of the sport, say 50 fashion conscious players, all said that your shirts are ugly...would you care? Would you try and change your style? Would you stop wearing certain shirts? Why do some players place so much importance on whether or not other players think their game/style is at a certain completely subjective level?

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Tjuggles » 16 Aug 2016 16:32

C-Fan wrote:1. Is it possible to reach the current BAP level, if you didn't start playing when you were 13-15 years old?
I think that a large part of starting young on one's future game is flexibility, both physically and mentally. However, I don't think that starting old means you can't reach the current level of BAP. To me, its more about time on task; how long you spend time with footbag. This includes shredding of course, but also maintaining a healthy lifestyle, being involved in the footbag community, stitching, and other footbag-related activity. People who start young have more possible time in their career, but that doesn't mean that someone else who started early 20s can't become top level.
C-Fan wrote:2. ...is the current BAP level too high? If achieving this level is realistically unobtainable for everybody other than teenagers, is that demotivating?
According to the discussion in this thread, there aren't really any set standards for BAP, so I don't think we can say its too high, or low...

Regarding the the second question, about demotivating players, I think whether or not its demotivating depends on the extent that a person wants to achieve BAP level (whatever that is).
C-Fan wrote:3. What function does BAP serve?
Pass.
C-Fan wrote:4. Why do people care whether or not they get invited into BAP?
I think its in part recognition of one's achievements, although with no set standards for selecting footbaggers, achievements of what? Like you said Ken, in the end it is completely subjective.

Interesting thread indeed.
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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Asmus » 16 Aug 2016 22:53

3. And the underlying question that is at the heart of all these issues is: what function does BAP serve?

One of the things kids really gravitate towards in skateboard are the different teams (most of them backed by company). The teams have different styles and philosophies and you can dream about one day getting into this exclusive club with your favorite skaters. The closest thing to this in footbag is BAP and I thought BAP was suuuupeeer cool, when I first started. It was this epic, mysterious and badass thing I really wanted to get into. I think that has a lot of value.

(There isn't 50 fashion conscious footbaggers :lol: )

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by FlexThis » 25 Aug 2016 09:46

I'm all for establishing criteria and lowering the bar. The current upper crest of BAP members are individual phenoms with over exaggerated ankle crank, younger stronger legs, and indeed super human strength (not really but it's impressive). The older BAP from my era (pre-Vasek) excluding Ken (who is also a phenom) haven't shown any real 'extraordinary' or even BAP-tastic skills since their inductions. While it is great to see a separation of elite BAP from general BAP, one has to admit that average players these days are FAR BETTER and more well rounded players than current average BAP. When the average player supersedes the average BAP member, then you need to re-think the whole club.

One suggestion is make BAP the entry to the club, but then have levels once in the door to further differentiate it's members. Like officers or ranked members.

Personally BAP has always been a goal of mine, but given that I'm now 41 and will probably never hit superfly, I doubt I would qualify even under established criteria. But what it would do is encourage younger players to push and feel accepted in the community without having to bow to older members or be left out because they are not BAP. It might also legitimize the idea of guiltless play as a standard for all entry level BAP members.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by Allan » 25 Aug 2016 10:30

flexthis it sounds like you would also advocate for revoking membership once someone can no longer live up to the current level? A annual test perhaps?

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by FlexThis » 25 Aug 2016 11:24

Allan wrote:flexthis it sounds like you would also advocate for revoking membership once someone can no longer live up to the current level? A annual test perhaps?
I would be sad to see any founders eliminated due to age related injuries or lack of play. Demoted or even revoked membership seems harsh. I wouldn't take away Ryan Lochte's gold medal even though he's a moron. Or Mohammad Ali's greatest of all time title simply due to Parkinson's. A test to get in would be something I'd advocate, along with tests for higher levels within the club. Guiltless consistent play seems fair as an entry. I tell people that's what separates pro from amateur given the lack of sponsorship and real prize money in the sport.

I think I've said for years that raising the bar was bad for footbag players and encourages injury. I've taken myself out for months at a time simply trying to hit those player level drills (bronze, silver, gold). But I can name quite a few current BAP members that would easily be amazed by my fearless rake game and then stutter to match or even try some of it. Others would crush me in their wake... But I do fit in there somewhere in the middle of an average BAP member game (definitely not elite level though) with my own extra ordinaries thrown in the mix.

I guess at the end of the day BAP is a fraternity (without monetary dues) controlled by a current elite set of members that can make their own decisions about what to do.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 31 Aug 2016 08:33

FlexThis wrote:The older BAP from my era (pre-Vasek) haven't shown any real 'extraordinary' or even BAP-tastic skills since their inductions..
I think you're conflating 2 unrelated questions. The first is: do players continue improving their skills after achieving BAP? And the second is: have BAP players inducted before 2002 improved since their induction.

The answer to the first is: some do, some don't.
The answer to the second is: some did, some didn't.

An interesting related question to this, is tracking improvement of BAP players after their inductions, and seeing how long they continue to improve. Of course, it is hard to do this objectively other than using competition results, which are problematic for other reasons.

But saying that pre-Vasek BAP inductees haven't shown any improvements since induction is incorrect. 2008 Bevier is clearly better than 2001 Bevier. 2016 Lon is clearly better than 2000 Lon. 2004 Seb was better than 2001 Seb. Now, if you're making the argument that most BAP inducted before 2002 aren't as good now as they used to be, that's not much of an argument at all. That's like saying all NBA all-stars in the 70s are worse now than NBA all stars from the 2000s. Of course they are; they're older.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by FlexThis » 31 Aug 2016 11:27

I'm not talking old age. I'm talking improvement from where their bar was set to where the bar is now. Of course there are exceptions and you and Flash are obvious exceptions (and yes I realize you rejected BAP). I guess what I'm getting at is that the bar kept rising, yet anyone already over the bar did not have to rise with it (unless they wanted to).

And like any PRO sport the bar is naturally raised due to general improvement in the sport and I accept that rise as normal. It seems like to get in today you'd have to re-invent the wheel... but if you applied that same bar to current members, how many would fall out?

It also appears that most of the non-BAP pros are indeed BAP level 2002 for sure. What does that say about BAP today? Lowering the bar to something on an average BAP level isn't an unreasonable request, but like I said it's not my decision, just an opinion.

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Re: No new BAP since 2014

Post by C-Fan » 31 Aug 2016 12:18

FlexThis wrote:It also appears that most of the non-BAP pros are indeed BAP level 2002 for sure. What does that say about BAP today?
Back in 2002, the same could have been said about mid 90s BAP. Most non-BAP pros in 2002 were at the level of 1997 BAP. I'm sure there were people in 2002 who thought that was unfair and also wanted the bar lowered. If that had happened, do we think we'd be at the level of your average BAP player today?

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