Does a tree in a forest make a sound if it falls when...

Switch Kicker · Post by **Switch Kicker** » 09 May 2006 15:08

no one is around?

I say no. Here's what I told several people through private messaging who asked about my signature.

This is very quite simple.

A tree falls in a forest. The tree creates vibrations in the air. These vibrations are caught by your ear, which goes into your ear drum and all that good stuff.

Sound is your brain interpreting vibrations.

Your ear and all that jazz, takes in the vibrations, deciphers it, and then your brain makes sense of it. Which creates sound.

Vibrations in the air is what's caused by the tree falling. We can not interpret, or make sense of invisable vibrations in the air. We need ears to do that. The ears just decipher it, and your brain is the one that makes sound.

Sound is not real, it's all in your head. Which is why you can have dreams with people talking in them, and that's why you can hear people talking if you're imagining people talking. Get it? Ever get a ringing in your ear? That's just your ear bits and parts either readjusting themselves, or something just not working properly for a few seconds. The sound isn't real.

Thus, if no one is around, to decipher the vibrations in the air caused by a tree falling, then there is no sound created by your mind interpreting the vibrations in the air.

Peace,
Fred.

Discuss.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 09 May 2006 15:15

The question is, "if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound if the only person around is completely deaf?"

Edit: Someone fixed their own problem already.

Bander87 · Post by **Bander87** » 09 May 2006 15:18

I say yes, it did make a sound. Sound is a form on energy that travels as waves through the air. Think of it as bass in your car, you can hear the energy, but you can also feel it. If nobody is around to hear the tree fall, this dosn't prevent the energy from being released.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 09 May 2006 15:22

When that tree hits the forest floor, it will create an impact, and part of that impact will be from the sound.

The mycelial network on the forest floor will be affected by that sound, and cause a ripple effect....that nobody will probably ever notice.

Larson · Post by **Larson** » 09 May 2006 15:52

Sound is a form on energy that travels as waves

Sound is not a form of energy, just the waves.

Like Switch Kicker said, sound is only an inerpretation of waves/vibrations. If nothing is there to interpret the waves, no sound is made.

Bander87 · Post by **Bander87** » 09 May 2006 16:10

I think its the definition of "sound". If sounds are simply "transmitted vibrations of any frequency", then yes, sound is created.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 09 May 2006 16:36

yeah, he pmed me about this, but the answer was such bullshit i decided to not even reply. but now that i see this...but i agree with what people have said already. the vibrations produced travel a lot farther than you would guess, and even if you cant detect them through hearing, they may even be reaching far-off people. sound=vibrations moving through any medium.

dictionary.com says
"sound=vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing."

the key word being "capable" meaning it CAN be detected, but it isnt required to be defined as sound.

and what type of forest habitat has NO animals in it?

Hakker · Post by **Hakker** » 09 May 2006 17:09

And according to slap's definition, sound is not the sense we experience, that is just our interpretations. The definition says sound is the vibration, and there will definately (according to the laws of physics) still be a vibration, even if no PERSON is around to detect them. I agree with the animal thing, too.

Iron Clad Ben · Post by **Iron Clad Ben** » 09 May 2006 17:44

Aside from people's dispute over wave physics, this is really a philosophy question, Existentialism. That is, something only exists because someone can experience it. You need an observer. According to existentialism, the tree that falls with no one to hear it, makes no sound.

If I were prone to sleep walking, and one night my subconscious decided to engage in sleep-shredding and hit Furious Alpine Symp Torquescrew (probably 9 or 10 adds, do the math) and no one was there to observe it, did I really hit?

More simply. I have a quarter in my hand. I close my hand, no one can see it. Does it still exist while it isn't visible? According to existentialism, no. Same argument as the tree.

Hakker · Post by **Hakker** » 09 May 2006 17:49

I got what you were saying up untill the quarter part. It still exists because you are still experiencing it through the sense of touch.

I dont know how much I trust Existentialism.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 09 May 2006 18:49

existentialism = poo.

I said basically exactly the same thing as switch in another thread... but I also think it's bullshit. It's just an issue of the definition of words.

At least IronCladBen's response is philosophy

But Ben, if existentialism is true, the tree wouldn't exist in the first place?

I also thought of the animal thing, but you have to realise this is a theoretical problem, and is only meant to illustrate a higher idea.

Also what's with that definition? 'capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.'? What about dogs? They can hear frequencies we can't, is that not sound, just cause we can't hear it? Humans are so self centered aye

dblthnk84 · Post by **dblthnk84** » 09 May 2006 19:13

Iron Clad Ben wrote:Aside from people's dispute over wave physics, this is really a philosophy question, Existentialism. That is, something only exists because someone can experience it. You need an observer. According to existentialism, the tree that falls with no one to hear it, makes no sound.

But Berkeley says that God observes everything...

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 09 May 2006 19:29

The tree falls in the woods, and causes a sound wave nearby that causes a microfracture in the cells of a different tree's branch. (yeah, i know its a stretch
)

Over many years the branch weakens, and falls off, at the same moment a hiker walks underneath.

The branch hits him.........did he hear the first tree fall.....lol

-n

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 09 May 2006 20:14

existentialism = poo.

What reasoning do you have to support this?

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 09 May 2006 21:26

I'll answer this question since it hasn't been answered properly, yet.

A tree falling in a forest does not yield "sound" if observers are not present.

A tree falling in a forest does, however, create shockwaves through the same medium that "sound" is conveyed. These shockwaves have numberous effects besides transmitting "sound".

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 10 May 2006 00:08

QuantumBalance wrote:I'll answer this question since it hasn't been answered properly, yet.

A tree falling in a forest does not yield "sound" if observers are not present.

A tree falling in a forest does, however, create shockwaves through the same medium that "sound" is conveyed. These shockwaves have numberous effects besides transmitting "sound".

I said practically the same thing in another thread.

Dan, I simply meant that I disagree with existentialism. I probably could have put it more eloquently

And no, I don't have any rational arguments to back that up, it's just a belief. I haven't delved into philosophy for a while now. I really should.

Bagira · Post by **Bagira** » 10 May 2006 00:12

It depends. One doesn't need ears to feel sounds. For example, go and bash your head into the wall while plugging your ears with wax or whatnot. You'll feel the sound because it will be transmitted to the nerve in the ear that picks it up due to the sound being picked up through the bone.

This is a bad example. Instead, go up to a 1 KiloWatt or something subwoofer. It doesn't matter if you won't hear the low frequencies emitted by it. You'll FEEL them. So technically, one can hear something even without ears. It's just extremely diminished in perception without them. But it's still there.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 10 May 2006 00:27

er, no. That's vibration. Sound is only picked up through the ears. And, you would still need to be in the forest to perceive the vibration whichever way.

ville · Post by **ville** » 10 May 2006 00:51

[quote=Wikipedia]Sound is a disturbance of mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a wave. Humans perceive sound by the sense of hearing.

By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids and solids. The matter that supports the sound is called the medium. Sound propagates as waves of alternating pressure, causing local regions of compression and rarefaction. Particles in the medium are displaced by the wave and oscillate.[/quote]

If a tree falls and nobodys around, sound is produced, but no hearing happens. Hearing is a perception of sound.

Switch Kicker · Post by **Switch Kicker** » 10 May 2006 10:59

ville wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Sound is a disturbance of mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a wave. Humans perceive sound by the sense of hearing.

By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids and solids. The matter that supports the sound is called the medium. Sound propagates as waves of alternating pressure, causing local regions of compression and rarefaction. Particles in the medium are displaced by the wave and oscillate.
If a tree falls and nobodys around, sound is produced, but no hearing happens. Hearing is a perception of sound.

No. A tree falls and a vibration is produced. Sound is a perception of vibrations.

And quit saying, "Without an ear you can still hear." That's common sense, what you probably MEAN to say is, "With out an ear drum you can still hear." However that ovbiously isn't true. No ear drum, no hearing. Saying that you can hear something through feeling it is like saying that you can taste the difference between water and apple juice by dipping your finger in it. It just can't be done, because your finger, can't taste things. Just like your bones and other parts of the body can't hear things.