Do you belive in ghost?

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Tsiangkun
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Post by Tsiangkun » 15 Sep 2004 11:03

two people tell stories which they claimed were ghost related yet there was nothing in the stories to suggest it was ghosts and not aliens or angels or mad scientists.


1) It could have been aliens, but that would require either aliens setting up residence in my home, or frequent visitations. Obviously the aliens have better stealth technoligies and the cloaking device helps a lot to avoid detection, so we can't rule out frequent visitations.
It's highly unlikely that aliens, which are invisible to the eye and walk without sound are living in my house, but we can't rule this out either. It could have been aliens teleporting into my house, which would be a conversion of matter+information to energy, and back again . . . see my original unfounded hypothesis that Energy, Information, and Matter are three forms of the same thing. If the aliens were converting their info+matter into a non-material energy form, then I can't distinguish between an alien and a ghost.

2) I don't differentiate between Angels and Ghosts, I can see both of these being entities that traded material composition for higher energy forms.

3) It was not a mad scientist. Mad scientists have not yet produced a cloaking device, they are visible to everyone and not just the little girl, and they make loud noises when walking around in a barren 3 story wood floored home the size of a gymnasium.


Okay, so it's aliens or ghosts. I believe aliens exists, and I don't doubt that ghosts may exist.

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Post by FlexThis » 15 Sep 2004 15:48

I believe is that no evidence is evidence that something did not happen/does not exist.
You started out good until this statement. This is a falicy of logic. Scientists (as you claim you are following science) use this falicy when confronted with the universe. Often times ignorant people will claim that due to lack of evidence the subject must not be true, but in fact, has not yet been proven fact. Example "The world is round".

But I agree 100% with you in your effort to disprove the existence of ghosts using logic and science. I follow the same model myself.

Were it not for a photograph my sister took of her husband with their new born child, I might help support your opinion. In the photograph a woman can be seen also holding a child in a different pose ghosted, if you will, behind his right shoulder. The detail is incredible and it is really strange how it appeared on film.

I like you, have tried to explain that it is simply a distortion of light refracted from the lens casting a duplicate image in brilliant white on the film. Except I can't seem to explain how it fell behind and not in front of the figure. It can be seen between the foreground and background. Really strange indeed.

So without a doubt there is more to it than simply a lack of evidence. But I applaud your efforts in explaining your position.
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LinksYs
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Post by LinksYs » 16 Sep 2004 13:38

Craig R. Mayer
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Post by lightningbolt » 16 Sep 2004 15:14

Thats all fake. Never trust sites like that. Most likly photoshopped or something.
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Post by FlexThis » 16 Sep 2004 15:33

The photo my sister has in her possesion is not like any of those on that site. The figure can be seen between the foreground and background, no orbs, no streaks of light, but a figure in white looking down on a baby cradled in its arms. Much like the Madonna and child. There is detail in the face, no blurry imagery, but a face. The clothing is draped on the figure like a gown, and she has a head dress over her head like a nun. The baby is wrapped in a towel and his bald head can be seen as well.

Very erry, and no photoshop. Photoshop did not exist when the photo was taken.

The photos on that site are interesting, and I have been studying them as I use photoshop daily and can tell a fake most times. I also know a little bit about light refraction and how it occurs. A piece of metal from a belt, watch, or from the camera itself can project an image similar to a solar flare and cause the orbs and reflections present on a lot of those photos.

Notice how in each the orb of white light is in front of the image, with except to the hooded figures. Also notice that none of those photos are blown up with any real clarity. A photograph on film can be magnified a tremendous amount on an enlarger in the dark room without loosing any quality. Which leads me to believe that most of those are fake.
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Post by LinksYs » 16 Sep 2004 21:54

i went to a place that had ghost i saw them in the pictures and heard them in the house.

THERE AS REAL AS YOU AND ME!
WHY WOULD PEOPLE LIE TO YOU!?!

monsters aren't real maybe all of you are getting them confusedwith ghosts. :roll:
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Post by LinksYs » 16 Sep 2004 21:59

I would really love to see that phoo flexthis but also heres another site.
this is a video
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/ghosts.html
ENJOY!
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Post by Anz » 17 Sep 2004 05:00

I don't believe in ghosts and I think even seeing one would still not make me believe. :?

That video was funny. Just fake though. :wink:

Nothing out of computer, TV or camera can prove ghosts to be real.

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Post by FlexThis » 17 Sep 2004 07:15

I'll be traveling back to NC this Christmas and I'll try to remember to ask about the photo. I haven't seen it in years, but my sister wouldn't throw out something as interesting as that photo, so I'm sure she still has it.
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Post by Jeremy » 01 Jul 2011 03:29

Thanks for the bump spam bot. I enjoy reading these old topics. I'm pretty happy with what I wrote, although I could have been a little clearer.

Just one thing, the Carl Sagan quote "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" is misused in this topic. Sagan used the phrase on pg 213 of the excellent book; The Demon-Haunted World. He's using it as an example of a logical fallacy - appeal to ignorance. We could paraphrase it like this. "You have no evidence that ghosts (God, vampires, elves etc.) don't exist, but this doesn't mean the evidence suggests they don't exist."

Obviously if something doesn't actually exist, the only evidence that can exist to support the correct hypothesis is an absence of evidence. Carl Sagan is pretty strong on this through-out that book, and I'm sure would be annoyed how many people misuse his quote to defend things he was convinced as any skeptic were false, such as ghosts.

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Post by Jeremy » 01 Jul 2011 03:30

No edit button. The I missed "not" in my Carl Sagan quote.

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Post by Zeb Jackson » 01 Jul 2011 05:42

ive lived in 3 different haunted houses growing up, and have stayed over at a friends house that was used for satanic rituals in the 60's.....needless to say i believe in ghosts.

story 1) My parents bar:
one morning while getting ready for school i was in the shower when suddenly all of the soaps and shampoos (which were locked in by a guard rail on the side of the shower) flew off the rack across the room and at the other wall....so i finished up my shower early and got the eff out of there.

story 2) My parents bar:
to clarify story 1, i lived in the apartment above the bar. Another morning while getting ready for school, i had just walked down the stairs into the bar so that i could go outside and wait for the school bus when the door that separated the bar from this kitchen area thing just start shaking like someone was yanking on it really hard wanting to get in. (we kept it locked) so i said "hold on ill let you out" thinking it might have been some drunk from the night before, but when i opened the door no one was there...

story 3) My parents house:
was in the middle of winter, we had a wooden stove and naturally kept wood outside. The fire needed wood and it was getting late so i went outside to get some, so that it would last the rest of the night. I bent down to get a few logs, stood back up and there was a man standing behind me, and old man, all he said was "hey", and then he was gone a split second later, just disappeared right in front of my eyes. This one scared me the most out of all of my stories...

ive got to go to work now, more stories when i get home :)

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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy » 01 Jul 2011 16:44

And explain why "ghosts" is a better explanation than say a "glitch in the Matrix" or "God" or "Aliens" or any other explanation that is given to explain experiences people have that they can't explain?

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Post by crazylegs32 » 01 Jul 2011 22:21

ghosts and turning lights on or moving shit no. But there is some really weird shit going on, our brains filter it out. Youll only realize this stuff in certain states, and the realization is transient and you dont understand what was so important just moments ago. Its real, but if you take it too seriously you are schizophrenic.

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Post by crazylegs32 » 01 Jul 2011 22:23

To go further- when youre in a crowd theres a million interactions that you dont realize but they are real.

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Post by Pasquar » 03 Jul 2011 21:26

hallucinations? delusions?

just a thought.

I don't believe in ghosts, but then again I've never had a personal experience with anything paranormal. From my experience, those who strongly believe in these things are usually those who have had first-hand experience.

That being said, people who make these claims may be more likely to resort to a paranormal explanation rather than a positvist, logical explanation. So what's the real causation?
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Zeb Jackson
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Post by Zeb Jackson » 04 Jul 2011 10:54

im not the only one who has seen the old man, several people have. At first i didnt believe in ghosts, but after my several encounters i believe in them. How can mass hallucinations of the same person even be possible?

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Post by Pasquar » 04 Jul 2011 20:49

did these people report seeing the old man completely independently of knowledge of the others' encounters? if there is, prior evidence of a phenomenon may make people more prone to expecting that sort of thing in that environment...

nor arguing, just prodding..
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy » 05 Jul 2011 01:51

How do you know that the different people saw the same old man? How do you know the old man isn't me, when I'm old, time travelled back in time to that point to fuck with you - why does thinking you're seeing an old man mean that ghosts in particular exist, rather than just something you can't personally explain?

A really great book worth reading, that I've mentioned in this topic is; "The Demon-Haunted World; Science as a candle in the dark" by Carl Sagan. This book does deal with claims of the existence of ghosts to some extent, but mainly starts off dealing with UFOs, and then having explained those, goes on to use the same techniques and explanations to explain more serious misunderstandings and pseudoscience in things like politics and public policy.

One of the things that's interesting about UFOs, that Sagan explains, is that many people from around the world have claimed to have been abducted by aliens that look remarkably similar and then treated in a similar manner. Sagan mounts a very a convincing argument that this is a consequence of false memories and a confirmation bias, combined with a well understood sleep disorder (sleep paralysis, which I've experienced, and probably leads to many supernatural, religious and pseudscientific claims).

Nick's question is a good one, because we don't know that what the different people saw was at all similar. "Old man" is not a very specific description. Even if we accept that you all experienced something and none of you were making it up, there are many instances where a group of people have turned a series of individual experiences in to a group experience where by talking to each other their stories begin to be the confirm with each other. Of course this happens at an entirely unconscious level, and is only uncovered by going through journals or taped interviews of the people before and after they talk to each other.

The other thing, which brings it back to the UFOs, is that as Sagan demonstrates, when people are aware of a particular phenomenon, such as other people's descriptions of aliens, they are much more likely to experience or claim to experience the same phenomenon. The best example of this is with the classic big eyed, upside down water droplet shaped head, grey alien. Nobody ever reported seeing an alien looking anything like this, although there were numerous reports of aliens, until an artist drew that picture for a science fiction magazine (or a magazine that was running a sci-fi related story), and now most alien reports are of aliens that look like that. It's reasonable to assume that a sizeable portion of people claiming to see that alien are genuine in their belief, but obviously the facts suggest what they're claiming to see is strongly influenced by what they already know, rather than something external. It seems probable that many group experiences are the same.

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Post by Zeb Jackson » 05 Jul 2011 06:35

Jeremy wrote:How do you know that the different people saw the same old man? How do you know the old man isn't me, when I'm old, time travelled back in time to that point to fuck with you - why does thinking you're seeing an old man mean that ghosts in particular exist, rather than just something you can't personally explain?
:lol:

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