A "How many adds is this?" thread..

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How many adds are in Eclipse?

3: delay, body, body
5
83%
4 adds (explain in thread)
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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Post by janis » 28 May 2007 05:52

ok, I didn't think phasing gyro mirage got an x-dex, tough 5 imo

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Post by BenRea » 28 May 2007 12:50

it might not but i think it should because it cant possibly be as easy as phasing mirage, adding a gyro always makes something a lot lot harder.
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Post by HackyRichard » 10 Aug 2007 13:25

old thread, sorry in advance

phasing gyro mirage:

toe>same out[DEX]>op back swirl[DEX]>>back spin[BOD]>same in[DEX]>op toe[DEL]

no xdex, but yes still 5, and it's toe2toe so should be right up your alley janis, I'm sure you've hit this by now anyway. replace the gyro mirage with a gyro dragonfly and you've got a nice hybrid old/new school move

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Post by Mathochist » 27 Aug 2007 05:07

What about miraging refraction? I'm not familiar enough with Jobs to describe it that way, but considering refraction to be like an inside osis, miraging refraction should have the same add count as torque, 4. But any attempt, or even a moments consideration, yields the idea that this trick has slurry written all over it and should be legislated out of existence like symposium butterfly.

Or what if it's crispy, that would make it clean, or at least cleaner. I don't know, thoughts?
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Post by janis » 27 Aug 2007 05:23

why should it matter if its "slurry"?. If you are worried about cleanliness just stick to osis's ;)

As for the cleanliness of miraging refraction, as long as the mirage is clean then this trick is clean. The point of a refraction is to drag the bag from inside to clipper, it's not a butterfly osis, essentially there is no dex to "the".


this trick has slurry written all over it and should be legislated out of existence like symposium butterfly.
this sort of comment really annoys me, why should these tricks be looked down upon? Symposium butterfly when executed well is a great styley trick...........

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What are the adds in Eclipse?

Post by C-Fan » 23 Aug 2010 11:18

This came up in conversation with Ian Brill at Worlds, and also came up a couple years ago at Worlds when I talked to Ianek.

What are the adds in eclipse? And subsequently, how many adds is eclipse?

The way I understand the trick, is that eclipse can be viewed two ways, which are essentially two sides of the same coin.

View #1: It's a flying inside stall, where you move the bag from in front of your body to behind it. Viewed this way, eclipse should get one add for a delay, one body add for flying (the hop), and one body add for moving the bag from in front to behind you. Total of three adds.

View #2: It's a hopover that takes place in the air. My understanding of hopover (which may be wrong), is that it receives no delay add (since the delay happens before the trick), but gets a body add for the jump, and a body add for having the bag start in front of you and move to the back of you. An aerial version of a hopover would pick up an extra add for a delay (since it happens during the trick, and is not just the trick preceding it), still gets one body add for the jump (which is now in the air, but is still just one jump), and one add for moving the bag from in front of you to behind you.

In both of these cases, I could see somebody arguing that moving the bag from in front of you to behind you would merit a xbd add instead of a body, but in either case I can see the justification for an add for doing this motion.

To me, it seems impossible to refute the fact that eclipse has both a delay add and a body add. The delay happens in the air, and the jump for eclipse is clearly a body add. Is there another add in the trick though?

Thoughts/theories about what are the adds in eclipse? Even if there is disagreement about what the adds are, is there consensus about how many adds there are in the trick?

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Post by Muffinman » 23 Aug 2010 15:41

I made a point to reply before reading your post, so I will read it after. To me, when I break it down, I think it is:
1) stall (delay)
2) flying (body)
3) dex (dexterity)


I understand that it isn't really a dex.. buuutt.. if it isn't a dex, then basically it's a fancy non-dex, and gets no further add. I'm not sure that in my mind you can START with a stall and then END with the crossbody.. so that doesn't really work for me. To me it is either a dex, or it's 2 adds. (Please don't harp on me though, as I didn't really put much thought into it, being the first reply :P).

I think I was there when the topic came up at Worlds, actually. And I think Ian's rationale was, "That's what Footbag.org says." To which I said in my head, "Footbag.org is outdated and contains lots of misinformation."


EDIT: I see what you mean about the "wrap" motion and crossbody.. I'm not sure what to think of those... Tricks where you stall first are so different... You can't think conventionally. I think my theory still makes sense after reading your insights, since fake dexes (is "bent" a fake dex? I don't understand that trick.. but something like that) don't really get that "wrap" add either...

EDIT 2: I'm happy with the new descriptive system in that we have no need for adds or Job's. We can now mentally organize tricks by number of components, regardless of subjective difficulty.

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Post by C-Fan » 23 Aug 2010 15:53

Muffinman wrote: "That's what Footbag.org says." To which I said in my head, "Footbag.org is outdated and contains lots of misinformation."
Agreed. Even if footbag.org says its something else, I still want to hear the rationale. Like, is it 3 adds because x,y, and z? Or is it 3 adds because it's a, b, and c? If it is more or less adds, why?

I guess what I'm hoping to achieve with this thread, is to hear everybody's arguments so ideally we can come to consensus as to what are the components in eclipse. Failing that, if everybody has different arguments, but they all have the same add value, at least then we can agree on the add value, which would be minor progress. Because I've heard people argue eclipse is a 4 add, but then offer no explanation as to what those four adds might be.

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Post by WyrmFyre » 24 Aug 2010 00:31

C-Fan wrote:Because I've heard people argue eclipse is a 4 add, but then offer no explanation as to what those four adds might be.
Could the extra add have crept in because the move finishes in clipper? If thats the case then thats wrong to me because as you say, the delay happens in front of you as an inside stall.
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Post by Zac Miley » 24 Aug 2010 04:54

I think eclipse follows along the same lines as xbdy rake.

So, whatever add rake gets, body for flying, delay. So 3?

As far is it getting crossbody, Pendulous (which generally ends in crossbody) doesn't get that add as far as I know, so I don't see how it would apply in this trick.

If you're going to be descriptive though, you would have to mention something about it being crossbody. Man, adds suck.
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Post by Corey » 24 Aug 2010 05:09

I always thought eclipse/flying wrap was three adds.(body, body, delay) One add for the flying, one add for the transfer, and one for the actual inside delay.
I think Cross body rake is three adds. (xbd, del, body) The body comes from the transfer.
According to the DS pendulous is its own move now. The adds I would give it are (del, body) Not xbd because it is not caught in xbd.
What would the adds for a "scoopy" osis be?

I could be completely wrong.

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Post by Zac Miley » 25 Aug 2010 16:37

[Ken's eclipse topic from Shred Symposium was merged with this topic. - Zac]
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Post by FlexThis » 26 Aug 2010 11:11

I agree with the rake theory. Several move come to mind that have an extra... I'll say [body] add.... that is either unaccounted for, or given an add but... not sure which or why:

- Jon's body rolling moves.
- Cross body Rake (or rake for that matter)
- Pendulum
- Eclipse
- Wrap
- Wrap Out
- Hopover and Hopover Swirl

I am sure there are more.
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Post by MJK » 17 Nov 2010 09:26

is motion 4 or 5?

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Post by C-Fan » 17 Nov 2010 12:18

Generally given 5 adds, since a well-executed one has 2 dexes followed by an osis (2+3=5).

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Post by Tsiangkun » 18 Nov 2010 13:53

motion used to be a dex before a refraction, 4 adds, I think...pretty sure that is how it was explained to me. (1+3)==4 ?

How many adds is refraction these days ?

I've always thought of it as two dexes and an osis, but I've always heard the four add count explained away as due to the end of the trick being a refraction.

I live five better. It makes more sense in so many ways.

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Post by F[uns]tylin' Eclectic » 10 Jul 2012 22:07

Yo, F*&$ ADDs...

















Surfing (fairy symp swirling) sets are 3 ADDs? or 2?
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Post by Muffinman » 11 Jul 2012 10:08

3

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Post by F[uns]tylin' Eclectic » 11 Jul 2012 13:14

Cool, thanks Erik.

I don't understand why surfing is 3 and phasing is 2 :/ Because Swirl is 3 and Symp Swirl is also 3... Our ADD system is so corrupt! :P
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Post by Muffinman » 11 Jul 2012 17:48

Well, symple swirl isn't symposium, it's symple. Surfing has a symposium swirl, not symple. But, yeah, adds are dumb. Symp butterfly doesn't get a symp add for some reason...

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