Serious 4 square isnt fun

1, 2, 3, 4. Keep that bag off the floor.
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Serious 4 square isnt fun

Post by crazylegs32 » 05 Jan 2008 23:22

I like 4 square as a fun game like hacking where you make the other guy drop. But it only takes one serious player (pushing rules, tense serious vibe, too strong desire to win at all costs etc.) in the squares and the vibe is ruined for me :cry:
Anyone else agree?

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Post by mc » 05 Jan 2008 23:44

Yeah, I'm with you 100%. I rarely play at tournaments if there's that one or few guys who will basically lie and cheat and insist on dominating at 4/2 square, despite the cost in fun for everyone else.

I don't think it's bad to do well at 4square, but I do think it's less fun when it's being taken way more seriously by one player.

I guess it's all about getting a game with the players who have similar ideals to you. too bad that's not one of the criteria for people getting in line.
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Post by mosher » 06 Jan 2008 05:13

When I play I rarely keep count of my score, that's how seriously I take it.

One guy in my club wants to win so bad that he plays super cheap, just stalling the bag then beaning someone EVERY time the bag comes to him. And then he makes a big deal if you try to get him to play like the rest of us.

I guess sometimes peoples drives to win overtake their desire to just hang out and have some fun.
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Post by Zeke » 06 Jan 2008 13:48

I enjoy squares in all its forms. One of the best moments of this years NYJ was when Steve and I were playing 2-square with no points. Sometimes it was one hit kills, sometimes it was long rallies. We called our own fouls and just re-served. SSSOOOO much fun :D :D :D

Oh, 2S with Alex Davidson is funny too; games to 3 million points, trying to defend that damned shirt move and coming up with the most outrageous ways to get kills on each other.
Last edited by Zeke on 06 Jan 2008 13:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pips » 06 Jan 2008 13:52

I like a little bit of both. Too much seriousness can ruin the fun but so can too much fooling around.
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Post by Outsider » 06 Jan 2008 20:25

I mostly only play 4square at the after-parties, at around 2 in the morning, after everybody has had a few. Not many people are taking the game too seriously at that point.

I generally don't like the game all that much anyway, so it takes a few drinks for me to get into the game anyway...

I might actually be guilty of wanting to win too badly (I'm genuinely not certain, as it can be difficult to be a good judge of one's own character), but I'm also very very bad at foursquare anyway, so I doubt if it has ever really mattered to anyone else I've played with.
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Post by crazylegs32 » 06 Jan 2008 21:01

You are excused Jonathan, since you said you suck anyway. BTW didnt you tell Jeff you were coming to Chicago to kick with us? 8)

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Post by Frank_Sinatra » 07 Jan 2008 07:39

Are you talking about playing well and trying to win, or playing cheap and trying to win?

The latter isn't fun, especially if people let the cheap player argue/bully to get their way. The 'bean' shot Mosher was talking about should be followed by a punch in the back of the head to whoever used it. So cheap.

But if people have skill and want to win, and aren't playing cheap, what's the problem?

You know what else isn't fun? People freestyling in a foursquare game. Boooooring.

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Post by professor » 07 Jan 2008 08:19

I think any 4 square is fun. Whether serious or just for fun. I just wish people would be willing to play with more rules. I like trippy serves and random crazy rules. It makes the game that much more fun. :D
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Post by Ners » 07 Jan 2008 08:45

There's nothing better then constantly getting out a person that wants to win badly, but can only use cheap shots :wink: Oh, the frustration on their face :P

I think serious 4 Square with serious players, who have lots of skill is great, the tension and adrenaline of each rally is awesome. And just as Zeke wrote, if you play with something good, there's no problem with arguing - if you make a bad shot, you know it.

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Post by mc » 07 Jan 2008 09:47

Frank_Sinatra wrote:Are you talking about playing well and trying to win, or playing cheap and trying to win?

I'm talking about the latter, which I fucking hate. Anyone here ever play stevesquare? it sucks.

4 square with good players trying to play well is fun. I don't even mind trickiness... my favorite move is the fakeout kick. I just hate cheapness and unsportsmanlike behavior.

I guess the worst is a combination of a very good player who is also incredibly cheap. They don't need the cheapness. They just have a desire to win that, as I said, precludes everyone else having fun.
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Post by Zeke » 07 Jan 2008 11:29

EDIT:
I started my post after Ben's... got busy @ work.
EDIIT:
Bleh, there's so many things I wanted to touch on, I'm not even sure if what I typed out made any sense. Why do I only want to post on modified when I'm busiest @ work?

Yeah, adding the right rule can definitely change the mood of the game. Specially wierd ones that even out the playing field. One-eyed-pirate, no emotional outbursts and spin rule are good examples IMO. Playing with odd kicking objects is fun too. Shuttlecock FTW! BTW, Matt Cross is the most gracefull and confident player I've ever seen kick with a drink in his hand.

I can see squares not being fun for new kickers when they jump into a court full of more experienced players. I don't think it's been much of a problem here. New guys have stuck with it and continue to have a good time.

Different interpretations of the rules (particulalry inconsistancy) or abusing the vote (lying) tends to be a big killer of fun for me. Also, I really can't stand it when any player starts to preach about what he thinks the other players really should have seen because clearly, they are blessed with the most accute senses and therefore have unrivaled perception while us mere mortals, with our remedial intelligence that play only to cheat others, have to rely soley on the superior being's infallible truth. My respect for that player starts to plummit when they do their 100 percent accurate re-enactements of the play. Thanks for that, why aren't you working for the justice system, or more importantly, the NFL?

Joe Crain wrote that everyone has their opinions and that we should respect them. Fine. I would much rather prefer the quick version that uses the efficiently silent tip of the finger than the constant running of the mouth. Just point to who you think is out. If you don't know, don't vote and don't let anyone manipulate you. There's only so much nonsense I can and will put up with. Ultimately I just want to play, not argue or listen to others argue.

When I've reached my limit, I have been known to resort to cheap tactics. Not necissarily to win, but to get other cheap players out. If I happen to win cuz of that - BONUS :!: :wink: :arrow: :oops:

Serious 4-square is fun for me. I push myself to a be a better player and hope that others around me have the same drive. Any game around here can start out fun and care free but when someone else gets close to winning, my competitiveness kicks in. I can't help it. It drives me to be as good as I can get at whatever I do.

I have played Stevesquare. I do not like it. I simply do not have the capacity, skill or the desire to out-argue him. Playing him in 2S for no points is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. If not for that, I would have nothing more than a grudging respect for him.




Wow, it's wonderful to see different views and opinions on this subforum!
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Post by CIC flurry » 08 Jan 2008 01:29

I'm trying to go back to a time when I first started. We used to play rules all the time. We made up some great ones. It was really fun. You wanted to win, but it wasn't super serious. Coming up with super fun rules. I still like playing with people of varying skill level with rules.

I used to think that 4S was the great equalizer and newbs and skilled freestylers could play at the same level. But skill improves. Strategy and placement are honed. Rules help equalize.

We play often in chicago, and some of us have gotten quite skilled. Usually, when it's just us, we play straight up with no rules. It is a serious game. We're nice and cordial and HONEST. I have found myself so super pumped up and happy after an intense round that I jump up and down without consciously thinking of it. I still wouldn't liken it to a footbal match or something. We're very cordial to each other and give props when the other person makes a good shot - but then again we're all friends. There is some foul mood when you're not playing well, but no bad emotions in general.

I sorta don't like the sentiment that it's just a game and shouldn't be taken seriously. That's the same argument people who are not in the know would use against freestyle calling it hacky sack and not a real sport.

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Post by Zeke » 08 Jan 2008 10:44

Going back to what is fun about playing squares...

If I could go back and think of some of the most fun moments I've ever had playing, very few of them are about winning games. Winning is satisfying (particularly if they are hard fought and well earned), but not always the most fun. Taking the 4S comp in NYJ 05 doesn't even rank top ten fun moments. Moments that really stand out are long, furiously fought rounds where every one is playing well or games where we're laughing our asses off more than we're playing. There's just too many to name here. I'd have to post most of my blog and the CIC blog.

Counting wins is more or less to track my own progress. It helps to see if I'm playing well and progressing. Losses are more important because I can think back and see what I could improve upon to play better next time. I'm not content to just be average at any of the things I like to do, I need find out just how good I can get at it.
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Post by professor » 08 Jan 2008 11:59

Am I the only one who likes stevesquare? I think it's fun to argue with him.

I think 4 square should become an official footbag event at Worlds. Maybe even have a line judge and spike/low judge.
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Post by Frank_Sinatra » 08 Jan 2008 12:52

professor wrote:Am I the only one who likes stevesquare? I think it's fun to argue with him.
You just might be. I didn't really argue with him much this year, or last year really. It was more like watching him Jedi Mind Trick other people into changing their vote or voting on something they didn't see, which was extremely frustrating.
professor wrote:I think 4 square should become an official footbag event at Worlds. Maybe even have a line judge and spike/low judge.
I completely agree, and (at a tournament - a serious tournament) I'd rather have judges than voting.

When people are close to a prize they really want, their self-interest might interfere with their judgement/honesty. I don't know if I'd be as objective in the finals of a tournament with a chance to get a cool prize as I try to be in a casual game.

And even in casual games sometimes you can only be objective up to a point. Like I might think something is low (but not be 100% certain due to the perspective I have while the bag is traveling towards me) and I try to say something like "I'm not sure, but it could've been low, could anyone tell if it was or not?" But if a shot looks borderline low between two other players, I won't say anything unless one of them makes a call. And if there is a call and I thought the shot was borderline I vote for a hackoff.

The point is nobody in the game can be 100% objectively correct about the calls. People can try to be honest about what they saw or didn't see, and judges can keep people honest if need be.

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Post by Moxie » 08 Jan 2008 13:52

Serious squares feels great to me if everyone is honest. It feels thrilling and intimidating, I love it.

People lying while voting makes me want to punch someone (them) in the gut, serious game or not.
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Post by crazylegs32 » 08 Jan 2008 23:24

What I was talking about in my 1st post is a bad vibe and not really specific actions. theres times for serious 4 square and times for fun (to me) 4 square. I only played one game at Nyj on the final night. And it was fun but as soon as it turned to a contest I had no interest.

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Post by Zeke » 10 Jan 2008 13:39

Ah I see. I've walked out of both shred circles and 4s courts for bad vibes too. That's beauty of Chicago, there's enough players that I don't have to kick with any particular person or group if I'm not having fun with them.
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Post by QuantumBalance » 12 Jan 2008 06:20

who still lies in 4squarE??? matter of fact who still even lies???

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