PDX Blender vs. Barrage

[Jeremy]

Personally I find clip set barrage significantly easier than pdx blender. I wouldn't say that I even find them comparable. I'd say that if you can hit whirl, you can hit barrage (on the assumption that you should learn mirage in order to learn whirl). On the other hand, to learn blender you need to be able to hit whirl, osis and then still need to change the action significantly. That's not to say that pdx blender is significantly hard, but I think if we ran an experiment choosing people who had never played footbag before and tried to teach half clip set barrage and the other half pdx blender, the barrages would mainly get there a long time before the people in the pdx blender group.

[Laroche]

afraid you're wrong mc,

barrage is way harder. pdx blender is easy: twist of the hips, little flick at the knee, and tada, done. Barrage brakes up my game so much, the timing throws me, and half the time it's the (unless up time, but even then it's iffy).

I COMPLETELY agree; I think it boils down to the timing for me as well, that weird mid-time stuff just breaks my flow. BTW, Pdx Blender > Barrage is cool. Just Sayn'

[cd]

Pdx Blender is 5 ADDs. Barrage is only 3. It's almost twice as hard.

[Zac Miley]

Pdx Blender is 5 ADDs. Barrage is only 3. It's almost twice as hard.

debate over

[CIC flurry]

Nice Chris.
I like Szymon's line of thought on finding some criteria - he's quite logical. Personally I think that even non pdx blender is harder than barrage. But that's just cuz I have practiced them less.

[Anz]

I tried not to post here, but here we go.

People who compare these tricks using the add system make me vomit with rage.

Barrage is as easy to clean as Mirage, if you the Barrage your technique is wrong and you should relearn it.

Barrage is way easier than Far Blender, no matter what kind of player you are. Finding Far Blender easier only means that you either are not a good player or you've built your trick selection wrong.

[hacksterbator]

Uh-oh. Apparently i've been going about this freestyle business all wrong. Luckily, Anz has put out alot of tip trick tip videos to help me get good and choose the right tricks to put in my strings. Off to youtube to get good!

[Zac Miley]

lol yeah, that's a little ridiculous Anz. You can't really call trick selection 'wrong'.

[defender]

lol yeah, that's a little ridiculous Anz. You can't really call trick selection 'wrong'.

Pretty sure that's Finnish for "I want to wrestle Anssi!" Barrage is easier. =P Just a furious toe stall maaan!

[Anz]

Haha - James knows what it's about.

You guys know what I ment, but just to make sure, by wrong trick selection I ment totally neglecting certain concepts and/or learning concepts in wrong order (osis before clipper for example).

[calemccoy]

what about people who can't do certain concepts? then, they arent neglecting them, but just cant. for instance, i cant do the leg motion required for double downs... so i might (and do) find phoenix, a five add, easier then a four add like paradon.

additionally, i cannot barrage, for similar reasons (swinging my leg twice around the bag instead of once just seems unhealthy for my body, so i dont push it) but have footed pdx blender a few times. just sayin'.

[Sergey]

I'm with Anz on this one - he is the only one who correctly identified the true two reasons why one might think that barrage is easier than far blender.

I can relate to having build my trick selection wrong: Can do far blenders both sides 10/10, but can barely do barages on one side.

Calemccoy, one's inability to master a certain concept has nothing to do with how difficult tricks are when measured against each other. The most important think to keep in mind: we are talking about an average player here.

[Laroche]

There IS no average footbag player.

[FlexThis]

Wonder if the DS could help?....nope

[Zac Miley]

Wonder if the DS could help?....nope

I think you're misunderstanding the intention of DS. It is not, in any way, intended to transcribe difficulty. Yet.

[FlexThis]

I spoke with Ianek while he was staying at my house in San Diego prior to Worlds and the DS is a precursor to a half point system. It is the intent of the IFPA to institute an accepted Descriptive System in order to ease the transition to a new difficulty system based out of the same non sense.

Bye bye terms like "guiltless"... it was fun while it lasted.

Personally I don't think half points do anything but split hairs on subjective reality. Half points also support adds by making them more granular. Physics is the best way to accurately determine difficulty, and until that option is fully explored (or even discussed) any new system based on subjective reality will always be flawed. Just as the add system is flawed.

I am a little more "in the loop" than I think people realize sometimes

Here is an example of what I mean:
Take the 2 moves in question and break them down by physics.

1) Clip set barrage

Required components:
- Crossbody stance. requires balance and an awkward stance
- Set. requires a full body (legs) down motion, followed by an immediate upward thrust of the full body
- Weight shift. requires you to shift your weight from one foot to another, which requires balance
- Timing. requires an at most .9 second 1 1/2 cone shaped circle of the lower leg at a given height
- Weight shift again. requires you to shift your weight from one foot to another, which requires balance
- Toe delay. requires a downward elevator type catch of the bag on the toe, which require some balance on 1 leg.

2) PDX Blender
- Crossbody stance. requires balance and an awkward stance
- Set. requires a full body (legs) down motion, followed by an immediate upward thrust of the full body
- Hop and Turn. requires that the setting foot never touch the ground, while the entire lower and upper body perform a full front spin
- Timing. requires a small window of opportunity of at most .45 seconds to hit a front to back or 1 1/2 cone shaped circle lower leg at a given height
- Turn and Clipper Delay. requires a half spin blind catch into an awkward stance

Now lets compare:

1) Barrage = Crossbody, Set, Weight Shift, Timing, 1 1/2 dex, Weight Shift, Toe Delay

2) PDX Blender = Crossbody, Set, Hop, Turn, Timing, 1 1/2 dex, Turn, Crossbody

Just by components (not that we are comparing them per se) PDX Blender upon inspection has more TO DO. If we compare the actual effort and energy required to complete these components we can see that the components in PDX Blender require a bit more effort and total body movement. Specifically take a look at the weight shifts in barrage versus the Hop, Turn, and Turn again in PDX Blender. Then look at dexes, they appear to be the same 1 1/2 for both except that PDX Blender has half as much potential time to complete the same dexes. Same can be said for the sets as well. If we cross out the commonalities it breaks down further like this.

1) Barrage - 2 weight shifts, .9 sec 1 1/2 dex, toe delay
2) PDX Blender - hop and 2 turns, .45 sec 1 1/2 dex, clipper delay

By this logic it becomes even clearer how PDX Blender is actually more difficult. The timing is 2x faster to perform the dexes and the weight shifts occur a total of 3 times icluding a spin and blind catch, as well as, the ending delay is in the same akward position that the move started.

Any questions?

[Jokse]

Did you just say that those tricks have same amount of dexes? I'm confused
And umm.. I dont think that Far Blender has two turns, it's more like just one turn and while turning, dexing happens.

But yes, I do think that Barrage is much easier. Oh well, what do i know...

[Zac Miley]

Yeah, your numbers and components look nice, but I really don't think they make any sense. Blender is not 1 1/2 dex, it's a dex and a pivot, which is completely different. Barrage is 1 1/2, obviously.

I'd also like to know how you came up with your timing number. PDX Blender has less time to do the same amount of dexes is what I gathered, which is not the case in any that I have ever done.

And regarding DS - the two systems are separate, and the difficulty system is way far from being completed. I am more in the loop for that than you are. So there.

[FlexThis]

Obviously you are more in the loop.

It is my understanding that pdx whirl is actually a far pdx miraging clipper. Which is a 1 1/2 dex, pdx being somewhere between a dex and a double hip pivot. Among my experienced friends this is a standard thing. Barfly and pdx whirl are both 1 1/2 dex i
In opposite directions. So by that logic (which could be tragically flawed) pdx blender performs the same motion as pdx whirl.

The timing in barrage can occur at multiple times. Furious toe, downtime, and throughout. Throughout means at most .9 sec or less to complete the dexes. Pdx blender however, requires a spin in front first so the dex(s) are hit more mid to downtime. Which would be about half as much time.

The turns and dex at the same time is correct. I say 2 turns because unlike pdx whirl which ends in clipper, pdx blender has an osis ending. Just pointing out the extra effort for the osis beyond the pdx. The turn is simply extended.

[Zac Miley]

So you think Blender is 1.5 dexes and a pivot? Blender has a full dex more than mirage does, plus another turny thing?

I really disagree with that, and I definitely don't think that should be incorporated in any future system.