what religion?

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 23 Dec 2006 19:39

Hey man don't dis the unicorns they might hear you.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Dec 2006 20:33

Scott wrote:I think the best evidence for the existence of god is the fact that individuals have some kind of desire to find meaning in life which implies a creater or some force greater than ourselves.

I don't think science has provided a better theory for that than religion.

There are also a number of documented instances of people with terminal illness being healed, a common feature of such occurances is a belief in god.

The comparison between god and invisible unicors isn't a good one. The existence of god provides an answer to that unanswerable question, why do we exist. Invisible unicors do not explain anything, have no relevance and are not worth consideration.

Certainly even if one could prove the existence of god, it wouldn't necessarily provide any basis for believing that a particular religion represented the truth or word of god.

This really is a false argument. I think a better statement would be "I don't understand the arguments science has provided over religion," because they are very comprehensive, backed up with objective evidence, and are believable no matter what cultural background you come from. Natural selection not only explains how life came to be from nothing, it explains why we believe in God and why we believe in miracles.

I think the other important fact is that the God thesis doesn't actually answer the question of how the universe got here at all. In fact what it does is create a barrier to say "you're only allowed this much knowledge" and beyond that we have to say "We don't know".

For example, How did God come to exist? Often religious people say that God has always existed, but show me any evidence, either scriptural or otherwise that that is actually the case. The fact is that if God exists, it raises the exact same question of purpose and meaning that we have without the existence of God. It's just that you're not allowed to ask those questions if reference to God - for no given reason, but just because religious people can't explain the answers.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Dec 2006 20:36

Provide one piece of objective documentation of a person being miraculously healed by God. If you can prove that this has happened, there is a guy in America who will give you $1,000,000.

gMoney · Post by **gMoney** » 23 Dec 2006 22:04

Jeremy wrote:
Scott wrote:I think the best evidence for the existence of god is the fact that individuals have some kind of desire to find meaning in life which implies a creater or some force greater than ourselves.

I don't think science has provided a better theory for that than religion.

There are also a number of documented instances of people with terminal illness being healed, a common feature of such occurances is a belief in god.

The comparison between god and invisible unicors isn't a good one. The existence of god provides an answer to that unanswerable question, why do we exist. Invisible unicors do not explain anything, have no relevance and are not worth consideration.

Certainly even if one could prove the existence of god, it wouldn't necessarily provide any basis for believing that a particular religion represented the truth or word of god.
This really is a false argument. I think a better statement would be "I don't understand the arguments science has provided over religion," because they are very comprehensive, backed up with objective evidence, and are believable no matter what cultural background you come from. Natural selection not only explains how life came to be from nothing, it explains why we believe in God and why we believe in miracles.

I think the other important fact is that the God thesis doesn't actually answer the question of how the universe got here at all. In fact what it does is create a barrier to say "you're only allowed this much knowledge" and beyond that we have to say "We don't know".

For example, How did God come to exist? Often religious people say that God has always existed, but show me any evidence, either scriptural or otherwise that that is actually the case. The fact is that if God exists, it raises the exact same question of purpose and meaning that we have without the existence of God. It's just that you're not allowed to ask those questions if reference to God - for no given reason, but just because religious people can't explain the answers.

so did god create humans, or did humans create god? kind of an interesting question, either god created me and everything was all well and good, or my mind's nature feels the need for a supernatural being controlling my destiny. religion has been around forever, and one day a man called jesus comes along and he just so happens to be the messiah? what makes christianity the "right" religion if 'gods' have existed for so long? don't get me wrong i'm not saying that god doesnt exist, but if he does exist, how are we expected to follow him, just listen to any person that says they're the son of god? its just so confusing. i think about this stuff all the time whenever i can't fall asleep, trying to make heads or tails of it. but i never can. if there are any answers, you just have to wait and see in the next life. if science can't prove or disprove god, then neither can i, so i won't try... ill just wait till i die

haha i didnt even see that coming

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Dec 2006 22:54

People created Gods. It's not a either or option, there are plenty of examples of recently created gods and we can see from that evidence, as well as the great work of evolutionary psychologists like Pascal Boyer, that creating Gods is a natural thing to do. There is no objective evidence suggesting that Gods actually exist.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 23 Dec 2006 23:06

This really is a false argument. I think a better statement would be "I don't understand the arguments science has provided over religion," because they are very comprehensive, backed up with objective evidence, and are believable no matter what cultural background you come from. Natural selection not only explains how life came to be from nothing, it explains why we believe in God and why we believe in miracles.

It's not a false argument it's a theory, just like natural selection, both of which provide an explenation of our existence that may be completely incorrect.

If the arguments proposed by natural selection were so compelling then I would expect to have at least heard of them, I haven't. Why does most of the world population still believe in the existence of some kind of higher power responsible for creating life when there is a very comprehensive and believable alternative available?

I think the other important fact is that the God thesis doesn't actually answer the question of how the universe got here at all.

The fact that the existence of god doesn't answer all questions is no reason to discount it, there is no ultimate theory in science but that doesn't mean we ignore the explanations science does offer.

if God exists, it raises the exact same question of purpose and meaning that we have without the existence of God.

Not really, the existence of god enables us to create meaning and set moral standards based on a higher power. That is the link between god and us, i.e. the soul.

If we accept that there is no god and no purpose then how does society have any basis for setting moral standards.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Dec 2006 23:45

Scott wrote: It's not a false argument it's a theory, just like natural selection, both of which provide an explenation of our existence that may be completely incorrect.

If the arguments proposed by natural selection were so compelling then I would expect to have at least heard of them, I haven't. Why does most of the world population still believe in the existence of some kind of higher power responsible for creating life when there is a very comprehensive and believable alternative available?

Have you read Origin of the Species? Have you read The Blind Watchmaker? Have you studied biology at school? Why is it, do you think, that above 90% of the top scientists in the US and the Commonwealth (elected by their peers into US National Academy of Sciences and the Fellows of the Royal Society) do not believe in God at all.

Religious people have done a very good job in confusing people and trying to make it appear that evolution and intelligent design are equally plausible theories but the fact is that if you if you study biology and evolution at university you have above a 90% chance of accepting evolution as fact. The fact that you're not convinced is almost certainly only because you haven't studied it. Your claim that you would believe in evolution if the arguments were compelling is ludicrous. Do you understand quantum physics at all? Do you accept that quantum physics exists? Because I can guarantee that if you go to university and get a b.sci majoring in quantum physics you'll see undeniable evidence that quantum physics do exist and I also think that if you've never studied quantum physics, you'd have no idea what they even are. Likewise, the evidence for evolution is compelling and overwhelming. I have never seen an argument against it that is based on science and there are so many different pieces of evidence that support it. Study evolution and I am sure you'll see how believable it is.

Regarding your question of why so many people believe in superstition - I suggest you read the works I quoted earlier of some of the top evolutionary psychologists, neurologists and biologists in the world.

The Extended Phenotype 1982- Richard Dawkins - BA, MA, Ph.D, Sc.D - all from Oxford University.

How the Mind Works 1997- Stephen Pinker - current professor of psychology at Harvard University.

How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science 2001 - Michael Shermer - Masters in Experimental Psychology, Ph.D.

Darwin's Cathedral 2002 - David Sloan Wilson - BA, Ph.D

Why Gods Persist 1999 - Robert Hinde - CBE, FRS, FBA.

Religion Explained 2002 - Pascal Boyer - Professor at psychology at Washington University.

In Gods We Trust 2004 - Scott Atran - Professor at the University of Michigan.

All those books explain, with a great deal of objective experimental evidence, exactly why people have evolved to believe in Gods.

The fact that the existence of god doesn't answer all questions is no reason to discount it, there is no ultimate theory in science but that doesn't mean we ignore the explanations science does offer.

I don't understand what your point is. I responding to the claim that we should believe in God because it explains things and showing that in fact, it doesn't explain anything, it just changes the level to which they're not explained. There is a lot of things that science doesn't yet explain, but there is an ever growing number of things science does explain. Science explains why the Sun rises in the morning, and how the Sun came to exist. Science explains what the sun actually is. Science describes why we think the way we do, and we we believe what we do. Science tells us what we're made out of, and even what the things that we're made out of are made out of. Science tells us how we get the energy to live, how we reproduce and why we reproduce. Religion tells us none of these things, and the one question it tries to answer - our existence - it doesn't actually answer at all. Religion gives you answers if you're happy not to question them.

Not really, the existence of god enables us to create meaning and set moral standards based on a higher power. That is the link between god and us, i.e. the soul.

In fact Marc Hauser demonstrates very powerfully by studying societies on every inhabited continent on the world that we have the same core moral beliefs regardless of religion. That is to say that I have the same basic sense of right and wrong as a zulu warrior in Africa. (or at least a 95% chance). I suggest you read his book Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong. Religious people try to claim that there is a link between morality and religion, but in fact all the scientific studies that have gone into this (as quoted in his book) show that there is absolutely no link. This is a myth created by religious people and if you're going to claim that there is a link between morality and religious belief give some evidence of this, don't just make an unjustified claim.

If we accept that there is no god and no purpose then how does society have any basis for setting moral standards.

An interesting claim when you consider the moral beliefs of the atheists like Bertrand Russell, Albert Einstein, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Douglas Adams, George Bernard Shaw, Carl Sagen, Mark Twain, Terry Pratchett, Arthur C Clarke, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Isaac Asimov, Salvidor Dali, Stephen Hawkings, Oscar Wilde, Jean-Paul Sartre, Charlie Chaplin, David Attenborough, Mikhail Bakunin, Marie Alena Castle, Sir Julian Huxley, Madelyn Murray O'Hair, George Orwell etc. etc. There are hundreds and hundreds of famous atheists who also stood up for human rights, justice and morality. There is no evidence that being atheist leads to a lack of morals. The only atheists I can think of with questionable morals are the communist dictators we have seen, but we've equally seen many religious dictators, war lords and human rights abusers. There is no link, all the evidence shows that you're wrong and I know you have no evidence that suggests that you're right.

If you want to argue something, put forward evidence for that case, not just your unfounded opinions.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Dec 2006 00:03

Albert Einstein wrote:A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

Religion and Science 1956 - Crown Publishers inc.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 24 Dec 2006 04:12

Charles Darwin believed in God.

Established religions give the potential for god to exist a bad name by making it seem implausible to many rationally minded people.

Evolution does not disprove or contradict the potential for god to exist in the slightest, it just condradicts the existence of the god in the Bible and the gods in most established religions.

I 100% agree that belief in god is unfounded, but so is a belief that god certainly does not exist.

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 24 Dec 2006 09:02

Darwin was an agnostic which is hardly a belief in god.

Established religions give the potential for god to exist a bad name by making it seem implausible to many rationally minded people.

So make up your own. It won't seem any more or less plausible than any other religion. In fact, I just wrote on a piece of paper that Bradmus Prime, the God of Kicking Ass, created the universe and has a 24/7 party in the afterlife and everyone's invited except murderers, theifs and people that pop their collars. Now there's as much evidence for that as any other religion. It can't be disproven, I'm a prophet. I'm going to bury it in a clay pot and hope it gets dug up in some distant future where people are silly enough to believe it...But in all honesty I never hope people would really believe that.

Religious arguments are funny in that every little hole in the system that science can't explain yet, god did it by default. If everyone was okay with the fact that god created the world and everything in it, there would be no need for science or learning in general except how to survive and what is in the bible. Maybe the dark ages were a good time. Questions for Why? and How? are what science is all about and I'm really thankful that people decided that the answers from the bible just weren't good enough. Creation already says that every science is pretty much wrong since they all return to the same conclusion, creation is wrong. Now it's just a matter of ingoring hard evidence that's really out there, that you can find yourself, or some words "written thousands of years ago when people were even dumber than they are now." - David Cross

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 24 Dec 2006 09:08

Ha, theifs. It's thieves, sorry. My religion is ruined! No one would believe a prophet that can't spell.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Dec 2006 13:10

dyalander wrote:Charles Darwin believed in God.

This is a lie propagated by anti-evolutionists. Look it up on google if you don't believe me.

Evolution does not disprove or contradict the potential for god to exist in the slightest, it just condradicts the existence of the god in the Bible and the gods in most established religions.

Evolution shows how life, and indeed the universe, could have come into being without the help of God. This is a far better explanation than God, because it has a great deal of evidence to back it up, while God has none, and not only that, but the God hypothesis just replaces "life and the universe" with "god" which leads to the same question being applied to God, without any genuine answer at all.

I 100% agree that belief in god is unfounded, but so is a belief that god certainly does not exist.

There are very few, if any atheists who claim that God certainly doesn't exist. It is impossible to be certain about the non-existence of anything (in general terms). However we can be certain that God almost certainly does not exist and there is an enormous amount of evidence supporting this certainty and no objective evidence that contradicts it. All the books I quoted involve objective observational evidence that supports the certainty that God almost certainly doesn't exist theory.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 24 Dec 2006 13:28

Jeremy wrote:There are very few, if any atheists who claim that God certainly doesn't exist.

Dictionarydotcom wrote:aÂ·theÂ·ist /ËˆeÉªÎ¸iÉªst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â€“noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
[Origin: 1565â€“75; < Gk Ã¡the(os) godless + -ist]

-An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Â© Random House, Inc. 2006.

i'll bolden and repeat the key part...

An atheist is one whodenies the existence of a deity
i can find a definition for deny as well if you require it.
this doesnt say anything close to atheists dont say for CERTAIN that God doesnt exist.
i dont agree with the cant prove it doesnt exist cant prove it does argument, but dont push your semantic trite about atheists not REALLY saying God doesnt exist. if they didnt, they would, by definition, be agnostic. there isnt a term between the two.

debating is one thing, bullshitting is another, mr o wheel

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 24 Dec 2006 13:33

kay i fucked that up a little bit, but not beyond comprehension certainly. just the last quote was supposed to be just what dictionary.com said.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 25 Dec 2006 20:47

Evidence God is a supernatural being? He's God. He created the natural world. He is, by definition, supernatural. I wouldn't say it's suspiciously convenient... He must be supernatural by definition. How could science possibly prove his existence?

Also, scriptural evidence God has always existed? The term alpha and omega ring a bell? Beginning and end? Christianity 101: God created time. He exists out of time. It's not that He's existed "forever" but that He simply exists. He is not bound by time as we are.

And re: the Albert Einstein quote.
That's not how christianity is supposed to work. You're not supposed to do good because you fear God will strike you down, or to get into heaven. There's only one thing you need to do to get into heaven and that's accept Jesus, I'm fairly sure you understand that much about christianity. You're supposed to do good because you love God and want to please Him, as well as all the reasons listed in the quote. There's no way we can earn our way into heaven, so to try would be silly.

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 25 Dec 2006 22:06

james_dean wrote:Evidence God is a supernatural being? He's God. He created the natural world. He is, by definition, supernatural. I wouldn't say it's suspiciously convenient... He must be supernatural by definition. How could science possibly prove his existence?

Well, apparently gods and angels used to talk to people according to the books. If God would talk to us now, Christianity would become a science and thus proven. Right now, it's just like any other of the thousands of religions in the world: all talk. Why pick one over another?[/code]

gMoney · Post by **gMoney** » 25 Dec 2006 22:25

thats kinda what i was trying to say in my post wayy up there. all these different religions saying "theyre right" because somehow they know god favors them more?? just doesnt seem right. and how most people have massive egos, of course they're going to say that they're right and you're wrong. if christianity was the only religion in the world, i'd most likely follow it. if islam was the only religion in the world, i'd follow it. but with all the fighting going on between religions over who's right and what god 'wants us' to believe, i dont know who to believe. and constantly saying "i know there is no god because science says so" is ignorant; supernatural by definition-

Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

arguing science vs. religion isn't plausible. arguing religion against religion isn't either. that's why i'm having trouble believing in god nowadays. what do i know? im just one of 6.4 billion people living on this planet

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 26 Dec 2006 00:10

God doesn't have to pander to our whims. He asks us to have faith... if He outright proves it there is no faith.

I can see what you mean about the different religions and everyone thinking they're right... it's definately something I think about. I'm just presenting the christian viewpoint, k?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 26 Dec 2006 00:38

Jamie, can you answer a question for me about Christianity. (anyone else is also welcome to answer)

If someone did not have the opportunity to know about god/jesus can they get to heaven?

Jeremy, I will respond later but don't have time right now.

Also Merry Christmas guys.

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 26 Dec 2006 00:54

No. And I wish I understood it. But that's where it's our responsibility to spread the word. I guess when it boils down to it, we all fall short, and none of us deserve to go to heaven, it's only by God's grace we can get there.