Evolution

james · Post by **james** » 27 Aug 2007 14:51

i believe in titties

Wu_ · Post by **Wu_** » 07 Sep 2007 19:09

this stuff always gets me either very upset in my mind or very confused.. right now i am very confused but thats how i like to be

i believe in science... just like the phrase jeremy dropped "We don't know how the world works but we will do are best to find out"

my all time favourite conversation was similar to this...

"oh your catholic... well... thats nice."

"yeah but i am actually very open minded about things."

"oh so you dont think being homosexual is a sin."

"no, not really."

"ah i see... i thought most catholics thought that."

"well it depends on how you interpret whats written in the bible."

"ok... but as a catholic you believe in what the bishops and cardinals say, right?"

"Yeah"

"Well ...the way the bishops and cardinals interpret the bible so it seems is the only interpretation in the catholic church. And they state that being homosexual is a sin."

"Oh"

Wu_ · Post by **Wu_** » 07 Sep 2007 19:10

sorry that wasnt on evolution.. i got confused.. like i said.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 08 Sep 2007 01:09

Yeah, don't worry. There's not much more to add to this thread. Simply because theres basically no valid argument against evolution. All we can do now is sit back and tease religious people.

sanuke okumatzu · Post by **sanuke okumatzu** » 08 Sep 2007 06:52

Shiva is fat

Buddha is fat

All your gods are fat.

Except the jew god....

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 08 Sep 2007 06:55

Buddha isn't a god

Bringerofpie · Post by **Bringerofpie** » 08 Sep 2007 08:20

He is to Tibetan Buddhists.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Sep 2007 03:55

No he's not.

"A common misconception among Westerners views the Buddha as the Buddhist counterpart to â€œGodâ€

dudeguyman · Post by **dudeguyman** » 01 Nov 2007 05:35

so everyone has some pretty neat stuff to say about evolution and religion so i figured i'd stir up this thread again with my two cents (if anyone cares).

I am a strong believer in God. I believe that what the bible says is true. many know and understand that God created the Earth and had it completed with people and animalsin a matter of 7 days. (read on to find out why i think evolution may be true). So Adam and Eve are in the perfect garden, oasis if you will, living in perfect harmony with God and with no sin in the world there is no death. God gave them 2 jobs be fruitful and multiply and tend to their garden. so they were having kids and everyone was happy. the outside world outside their garden the rest of the world is potentially evolving and living on. Adam and Eve could have went millions upon millions of years before sinning. the only problem i have with evolution is that man did not evolve from apes. we have evidence that man has not evolved in hundreds of thousands of years for sure. (to the point where we needed to be classified as something other than man). Alot of parts of evolution make perfect sense and in no way contradict the bible. especially natural selection which is just obviousely true and can be totally proven right.

It makes no difference to me wether or not evolution is true or not. However it seems to be a popular reason why people say they don't believe in God. I hate it when christians get all bent out of shape and say creationism is the only way and won't even listen openly to evidence for it. but i also don't like it when non-beleivers think evolution proves God is not real and are close minded to the arguement of why God is real.

anyways that's kinda what i think about evolution.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 01 Nov 2007 06:00

dudeguyman wrote: the outside world outside their garden the rest of the world is potentially evolving and living on.

I thought adam and eve were the first people and everyone came from them?

dudeguyman wrote: the only problem i have with evolution is that man did not evolve from apes. we have evidence that man has not evolved in hundreds of thousands of years for sure.

Okay, please direct me to some 'evidence'.

dudeguyman wrote: I am a strong believer in God. I believe that what the bible says is true. many know and understand that God created the Earth and had it completed with people and animalsin a matter of 7 days. (read on to find out why i think evolution may be true). So Adam and Eve are in the perfect garden, oasis if you will, living in perfect harmony with God and with no sin in the world there is no death. God gave them 2 jobs be fruitful and multiply and tend to their garden. so they were having kids and everyone was happy.

So wait, you argue against man evolving from apes because and claim there's evidence to refute that, yet where's the evidence for this Adam and eve stuff? There's no room for your hocus pocus here.

I've got some pretty plain evidence for our evolution from apes - look at the size of creationists' brains, then look at the size of apes' brains. Notice any similarities?

That said, its good that you're more open minded than other fruitcakes.

dudeguyman · Post by **dudeguyman** » 01 Nov 2007 06:16

well the evidence i've read is probably similar to yours that says we evolved from apes. showing the timeline where it goes like the neandertal who were the descendants of the homo erectus tribe. it is true that we are close in DNA to certain types of apes. but they are simply the closest. other animals have close DNA (just not that close) as well. the simple fact remains though evolution can exist. it is not a substitution for creationism though. how did the very first bacteria come to be, how did anything come to be?

also adam and eve were the first. i meant animals evolved but people did not. a monkey can evolve as close to human as possible but we were always humans from the time we were created i believe. so the outside world i was referring to was dinosaurs and whatever. i beleive we didn't evolve from apes because i know god but also there is no specific evidence that shows us evolving in ways other than natural selection and such. for one we adapt our environment we don't adapt to our environment. we are different from animals. some anyways lol. the size of brain is your evidence that we evolved from apes? if that is all you have to go on then i wouldn't by that. however there is more evidence than the size of our brains.

thank you for calling me open minded

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 01 Nov 2007 06:32

well the evidence i've read is probably similar to yours that says we evolved from apes. showing the timeline where it goes like the neandertal who were the descendants of the homo erectus tribe. it is true that we are close in DNA to certain types of apes. but they are simply the closest. other animals have close DNA (just not that close) as well. the simple fact remains though evolution can exist. it is not a substitution for creationism though. how did the very first bacteria come to be, how did anything come to be?

I doubt the first 'living' organism was soemthing as complex as a bacterium. The first whatever, was just luck. The earth is a massive object. All you need is an arrangement that allows a chemical reaction to fuel more chemical reactions and presto.

also adam and eve were the first. i meant animals evolved but people did not. a monkey can evolve as close to human as possible but we were always humans from the time we were created i believe. so the outside world i was referring to was dinosaurs and whatever. i beleive we didn't evolve from apes because i know god but also there is no specific evidence that shows us evolving in ways other than natural selection and such.

You're argument is riddled with flaws and is just plain confusing to try and understand. What do you mean there is no evidence for showing us evolving in ways other than natural selection? Thats because there isn't any, natural selection is the cause of evolution!

for one we adapt our environment we don't adapt to our environment. we are different from animals. some anyways lol. the size of brain is your evidence that we evolved from apes? if that is all you have to go on then i wouldn't by that. however there is more evidence than the size of our brains.

Animals are no different to people. There is no special gap.

The brain comment was a joke aimed at putting down creationists. Sad thing is you just made me realise all the creationists would be too dumb to get it

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 01 Nov 2007 06:32

well the evidence i've read is probably similar to yours that says we evolved from apes. showing the timeline where it goes like the neandertal who were the descendants of the homo erectus tribe. it is true that we are close in DNA to certain types of apes. but they are simply the closest. other animals have close DNA (just not that close) as well. the simple fact remains though evolution can exist. it is not a substitution for creationism though. how did the very first bacteria come to be, how did anything come to be?

I doubt the first 'living' organism was soemthing as complex as a bacterium. The first whatever, was just luck. The earth is a massive object. All you need is an arrangement that allows a chemical reaction to fuel more chemical reactions and presto.

also adam and eve were the first. i meant animals evolved but people did not. a monkey can evolve as close to human as possible but we were always humans from the time we were created i believe. so the outside world i was referring to was dinosaurs and whatever. i beleive we didn't evolve from apes because i know god but also there is no specific evidence that shows us evolving in ways other than natural selection and such.

Your argument is riddled with flaws and is just plain confusing to try and understand. What do you mean there is no evidence for showing us evolving in ways other than natural selection? Thats because there isn't any, natural selection is the cause of evolution!

for one we adapt our environment we don't adapt to our environment. we are different from animals. some anyways lol. the size of brain is your evidence that we evolved from apes? if that is all you have to go on then i wouldn't by that. however there is more evidence than the size of our brains.

Animals are no different to people. There is no special gap.

The brain comment was a joke aimed at putting down creationists. Sad thing is you just made me realise all the creationists would be too dumb to get it

dudeguyman · Post by **dudeguyman** » 01 Nov 2007 08:33

sorry i thought you were serious about the brain thing being your proof in evolution. notice i said that there is much better evidence than that to show evolution. Natural selection is a part of evolution but is not evolution itself. evolution is the mutating of dna to "evolve" into something new. like giraffes, the ones with longer necks can reach the taller tree leaves. they evolved a special valve half way down their neck to allow them to breathe. It wasn't the ones with the valve that lived, they just evolved it. but when did all the giraffes say "hey lets all start eating the leaves up high to save food lower to the ground for other animals, hey you little giraffe, start stretching your neck" i'm jk but seriousely. I agree that evolution seems pretty logical and is probably pretty accurate. however how does anything at all exist? how did that very first chemical exist to form bacterium.

i don't think my arguement is very difficult to understand. adam and eve living without sin could have lived in their perfect little bubble. they were having kids (the bible does not say they sinned before they had kids). the rest of the world (like the giraffes) are changing themselves to adapt to their environment. they are growing thicker coats of fur for the cold. the ones who grow thicker fur live longer to reproduce. while adam and eve adapt their environment (they tend the garden). evolution in many respects is not only likely but defenitely true. but that does not mean God did not create everything. creationsim and evolution are two seperate arguements not opposing arguements. so we both agree in evolution. but you disagree that God created things in the first place. can you offer any explanation to me as to how things came into being. evolving you simply evolve from something already existing. so how did it happen. you might say the big bang theory but what would cause a big bang if nothing exists. those are unanswerable questions that we will probably never understand the answer to. I beleive in God not only because i see no other good answer to all this (the world existence, ect.) but because God has impacted my life and shown me he is real. i sought out what is real and i found him. i know you will argue this whole entire post though...

Switch Kicker · Post by **Switch Kicker** » 01 Nov 2007 09:54

dudeguyman wrote:sorry i thought you were serious about the brain thing being your proof in evolution. notice i said that there is much better evidence than that to show evolution. Natural selection is a part of evolution but is not evolution itself. evolution is the mutating of dna to "evolve" into something new. like giraffes, the ones with longer necks can reach the taller tree leaves. they evolved a special valve half way down their neck to allow them to breathe. It wasn't the ones with the valve that lived, they just evolved it. but when did all the giraffes say "hey lets all start eating the leaves up high to save food lower to the ground for other animals, hey you little giraffe, start stretching your neck" i'm jk but seriousely. I agree that evolution seems pretty logical and is probably pretty accurate. however how does anything at all exist? how did that very first chemical exist to form bacterium.

i don't think my arguement is very difficult to understand. adam and eve living without sin could have lived in their perfect little bubble. they were having kids (the bible does not say they sinned before they had kids). the rest of the world (like the giraffes) are changing themselves to adapt to their environment. they are growing thicker coats of fur for the cold. the ones who grow thicker fur live longer to reproduce. while adam and eve adapt their environment (they tend the garden). evolution in many respects is not only likely but defenitely true. but that does not mean God did not create everything. creationsim and evolution are two seperate arguements not opposing arguements. so we both agree in evolution. but you disagree that God created things in the first place. can you offer any explanation to me as to how things came into being. evolving you simply evolve from something already existing. so how did it happen. you might say the big bang theory but what would cause a big bang if nothing exists. those are unanswerable questions that we will probably never understand the answer to. I beleive in God not only because i see no other good answer to all this (the world existence, ect.) but because God has impacted my life and shown me he is real. i sought out what is real and i found him. i know you will argue this whole entire post though...

You have... sooo many flaws in your ideas, it's absolutely... mind boggling why you even dug up this very one sided topic.

Your DNA does not "mutate." Mutating DNA is not the cause of evolution. Natural selection is evolution. Example.

White wolves are white because they blend in with snow. If we had purple or red wolves running around.. well, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. At one point, they very well may have been a red wolf, or some other color that sticks out. However, natural selection kills off the disadvantaged wolf, and the white wolf lives on to reproduce. DNA is not altered. (Debatable, but as far as evolution is concerned, it has no effect.) You can not alter your own DNA to make it so you have a more pronounced chin, or more acute ears. It's not possible (At least not now or anytime in the next century). However, when you combine two people's DNA, (have sex and reproduce) this creates a new strand of DNA that has thousands of different possible combinations. Actually billions, but w/e. When combining two different DNA strands, it makes a new DNA, that is different. By making many different DNA possibilities, you have weak ones, and strong ones. In animals, the weaker ones die off to natural selection, and the stronger live to reproduce. Humans is another story. We have the most dominate DNA ever known. We do not live in natural selection, because we're human beings who try to live in peace.

If I went around killing everyone that has the bottom of their ear lobe attached to their head, there would only be people with the free earlobe bottom left int eh world. Thus there would be an evolution, no more attached earlobe bottoms.

You have mid-digital hair? Ok, dead. Kill all them off, no more people with mid-digital hair. That's another evolution.

If evolution of humans did not exist, we would all look the same. That's proof right there that all of your comments here are false. I don't know how well i did at explaining this... but I get and understand it... if you don't, that's too bad. Someone else that's better with words can shove the truth in your face.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 01 Nov 2007 16:34

In response to dudeguyman's posts:

I also didn't really understand evolution until recently, maybe because of the bias of a religious upbringing or the over simplification of high school textbooks. I found the forums at evcforum.net had some very good discussions on evolution and creation and answered a lot of questions.

It seems your justification for believing the bible is the fact there are a number of unanswered and perhaps unanswerable questions such as "how does anything exist at all?". Well just because science hasn't provided an adequate answer doesn't mean you should simply make one up. And just because someone made-up the answer a long time ago shouldn't make it any more convincing.

If god really did create the earth as you claim why did he only tell one person (or you may argue some people) about it and then rely on them to let everyone else know. Why couldn't he just communicate with each person directly like when a person reaches 18 god would take them aside and say "hey I'm god, I made the earth in 7 day and if you want to go to heaven when you die..." you get the idea.

Doesn't it concern you that what you believe cannot be verified and has been dictated to you by another mere mortal such as yourself.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 01 Nov 2007 16:58

dudeguyman wrote: however how does anything at all exist? how did that very first chemical exist to form bacterium.

I don't know, and this isn't the place to discuss it. All I know is that i'm no more special than the chair i'm sitting on, that is my point. god didn't create people.

dudeguyman wrote: i don't think my arguement is very difficult to understand. adam and eve living without sin could have lived in their perfect little bubble. they were having kids (the bible does not say they sinned before they had kids). the rest of the world (like the giraffes) are changing themselves to adapt to their environment. they are growing thicker coats of fur for the cold. the ones who grow thicker fur live longer to reproduce. while adam and eve adapt their environment (they tend the garden). evolution in many respects is not only likely but defenitely true. but that does not mean God did not create everything. creationsim and evolution are two seperate arguements not opposing arguements. so we both agree in evolution. but you disagree that God created things in the first place. can you offer any explanation to me as to how things came into being. evolving you simply evolve from something already existing. so how did it happen. you might say the big bang theory but what would cause a big bang if nothing exists. those are unanswerable questions that we will probably never understand the answer to. I beleive in God not only because i see no other good answer to all this (the world existence, ect.) but because God has impacted my life and shown me he is real. i sought out what is real and i found him. i know you will argue this whole entire post though...

Of course I'll argue the entire post. Firstlly, I'm agnostic, not strictly athiest. Yes perhaps there is some greater being somewhere that we just can't comprehend, but I don't think about it I don't know anything about it and I never will. I will die, lose conciousness and whatever. I wasn't created by any divine whatever, that's my point. We may as well act like there isn't anything.

By the way, the theory is that the big bang created this universe, not everything. You couldn't just have an effect without a cause. I'm pretty sure there was 'something' else, with different dimensions (not space and not time), that allowed for the big bang to occur. Since we can't even imagine, comprehend, or examine what was there its pointless to go further and try and think about god.

switchkicker wrote: Your DNA does not "mutate." Mutating DNA is not the cause of evolution.

Actually, it does.

switchkicker wrote: White wolves are white because they blend in with snow. If we had purple or red wolves running around.. well, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. At one point, they very well may have been a red wolf, or some other color that sticks out. However, natural selection kills off the disadvantaged wolf, and the white wolf lives on to reproduce. DNA is not altered. (Debatable, but as far as evolution is concerned, it has no effect.) You can not alter your own DNA to make it so you have a more pronounced chin, or more acute ears. It's not possible (At least not now or anytime in the next century). However, when you combine two people's DNA, (have sex and reproduce) this creates a new strand of DNA that has thousands of different possible combinations. Actually billions, but w/e. When combining two different DNA strands, it makes a new DNA, that is different. By making many different DNA possibilities, you have weak ones, and strong ones. In animals, the weaker ones die off to natural selection, and the stronger live to reproduce. Humans is another story. We have the most dominate DNA ever known. We do not live in natural selection, because we're human beings who try to live in peace.

Your argument is also mind boggling. You've failed to consider all the asexual organisms on this planet, such as the good old favourite bacteria.

Can you explain why these organisms are able to evolve millions of times faster than humans, despite the fact that your theory says they shouldn't at all?

Its because when one bacterium splits into two, its very very hard to replicate the DNA perfectly, and you'll get a degree of error. This causes mutation, and is critical to any species survival (but it involves a lot of death as well).

If your DNA didn't get mutated, how would kids be born with twelve fingers. Their parents didn't have twelve fingers, so explain that!

I posted my simple explanation and evidence of evolution somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm feeling a desire to enforce it:

1. English babies come from English parents, and Chinese babies come from Chinese parents.

(We recognise that you carry traits on from your parents).

2. I am also different to my parents. I'm taller than them both. (This is most likely because of a recessive gene, but it illustrates the point)

(We see that people are also different to their parents)

3. An athletic person capable of climbing up a tree to get fruit, or a person with a mutated half-leg, and is thus more likely to surive.

(The 'better' organism will live on and most likely, root.)

Unless you're to deny these obvious facts, you essentially support evolution.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 01 Nov 2007 17:33

Scott touched on this, but I wanted to bring it up a little clearer.

What we have here is the problem science often faces; in that it is not philosophy or mathematics (for separate reasons). If you look at science and say; "Well that contradicts my religious beliefs, or that contradicts my morals, so I'm going to reinterpret the science so that it is consistent with my beliefs," then you've stepped way outside the boundaries of science.

Evolution has nothing to do with God or religion. The theory of evolution is not an attempt to prove that God does not exist, or even proof that God does not exist. The reasons evolution is seen as conflicting with evolution is because the theory contradicts the beginning of the Bible and because it shows that life on the world could have developed from the point of abiogenesis without any kind of supernatural help at all.

Evolution is part theory, but it's also part fact. There is no other theory that explains why animals, plants and people, living apart from each other develop differently.

If Adam and Eve really were the first people in the world (and there is no evidence to prove this), then how can you explain the difference between Asians, Native Americans, White people, Africans, Australian Aboriginals etc? Why is it that the theories of how people dispersed around the world, based purely on genetical evidence is so similar to the same theories based purely on linguistic evidence and why do these theories also match the archaeological evidence? The reality is that either creationism or evolution, because not mutually exclusive, demand that humans have evolved since "the creation." And in fact the rate of evolution is much much higher under creationism than it is under evolution.

But not only is evolution backed up by indirect evidence like this; there are countless examples of people viewing evolution occurring in reality - not evidence that it did occur, but it actually occurring. There was a great experiment in 2006 where scientists introduced some large predatory lizards into a population of much smaller lizards, and then saw the lizards evolve longer legs so they could run faster, and then change to evolving shorter legs that were better for climbing.

So evolution, and indeed all science, is based on observations of reality. We know that evolution occurs because we've seen it occur. On the other hand religion is based on faith. We "know" that God exists because we can feel her. You can't simply take parts of science and mould them however you want them to be. You may apply your faith to science and start changing it, but as soon as you do that, you're not doing science any more.

Science is, by default, sceptical. Whenever somebody says; "This is how the world was," science will say; "how do you know that." There are certainly large parts of Dudeguyman's posts where I feel like that. How do you know Adam and Eve existed? How do you know the bible is true? etc. and the reality is that you will never be able to provide adequate answers to those questions, because no adequate empirical evidence or observations exist. You believe those things purely because of "faith." Anybody who is rational cannot be religious, because there is no reason to believe in things without evidence.

Blue_turnip · Post by **Blue_turnip** » 02 Nov 2007 04:25

I had the privelige of letting loose a bit of iconoclasm on a religious dude today. Its pretty rare, becuase I don't usually have friends who are religious. Its not because I discriminate against them (although that could be debated), because I'm really good friends with a couple religious people. It just seems that I wouldn't typically become friends with those sort of people. Also, I don't usually let loose on complete randoms (unless its on an internet forum -_-), and I also don't let loose on close friends. This guy, however was like in the sweet spot in between.

We were having a convo on msn, and i said "jesus christ" in reference to the fact that i'm still doing exams. this is what ensued:

Go recon! says:
whoa hold the blasphemy round me mate

Go recon! says:
oh yeah ur not finished yet!

~Ollie~ says:
are you religious?

Go recon! says:
im a christian yes

~Ollie~ says:
ah, okay

~Ollie~ says:
do you believe in evolution?

Go recon! says:
nah, creation

~Ollie~ says:
ah

~Ollie~ says:
are you catholic or protestant?

Go recon! says:
protestant

~Ollie~ says:
which denomination

Go recon! says:
haha ur drilling me

Go recon! says:
bible-presbyterian

~Ollie~ says:
i'm just a curious man

Go recon! says:
lol i dont mind; just observin

~Ollie~ says:
do you believe in adam and eve?

Go recon! says:
thats a funny way to put it

Go recon! says:
well its written in the genesis account

Go recon! says:
so yea

~Ollie~ says:
ah

~Ollie~ says:
how else should I have said it?

Go recon! says:
hahah

~Ollie~ says:
were they middle eastern? I'm not fully familiar with the old testament

Go recon! says:
well they were the first humans ever created

Go recon! says:
having all the human genetic code, they didnt really have a 'race' to start with

~Ollie~ says:
so do you mean we evolved from them?

I was starting to feel bad at this point, because he's a nice guy and the last line pretty much owned him lol. So i let him be:

~Ollie~ says:
tell me if i'm offending you, because i don't mean to
Go recon! says:
no no its cool
Go recon! says:
im just semi-playing a game atm
~Ollie~ says:
ah fair enough

I didn't get another response, lol.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 02 Nov 2007 04:33

It's interesting how religious people expect us to succumb to their religious beliefs though. Like I tend to apologise for blaspheming around Christians as well, when they tell me they don't like it; but I find their whole views of the world a offensive, and I don't ask them to pretend not to be Christians when I'm around. Why are non believers expected to tolerate religious views? Why aren't religious people expected to tolerate non religious views? If you look at any religious view, there is a majority of people who believe that particular view is rubbish, the default should be for religious people to not expect others to abide by their beliefs.

I like Sam Harris' view of things. We shouldn't call ourselves "atheists," we should just call ourselves "normal." (Not his exact words, but they were to that effect).