Knee bumps, same or not?

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 17 Feb 2005 20:33

Ok I was really wondering this today. What are is your stand point on knee bumps. lets say I do a pixie set into a knee bump and then do a mirage.

Is this one move, or is it two moves separated by the knee bump

pixie knee bump(ing) mirage

or

pixie knee bump>mirage

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 17 Feb 2005 20:44

I think if you hit the knee part of a pixie knee-bumping (pimping?) set uptime it should count as a unique set.

how about this!!! ah hah!

Why not let a bump count as zero extra ADD's but still let the trick remain one single trick.

Like.. stepping ducking knee bumping ducking knee bumping ducking butterfly would be one trick.

Sporatical_Distractions · Post by **Sporatical_Distractions** » 17 Feb 2005 20:57

i think that it counts as two separate moves but keep the on e move name pixie kneebump(ing) mirage

LameR · Post by **LameR** » 17 Feb 2005 22:16

mosher wrote:I think if you hit the knee part of a pixie knee-bumping (pimping?) set uptime it should count as a unique set.

how about this!!! ah hah!

Why not let a bump count as zero extra ADD's but still let the trick remain one single trick.

Like.. stepping ducking knee bumping ducking knee bumping ducking butterfly would be one trick.

In theory then you could just do a knee bump, then a dex, and repeat as long as you feel like it. A 12 dex, 27 add could be achieved =/

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 18 Feb 2005 05:05

Tom: Your idea is good :d But knee bumps doesn;t bring an extra add actually...

But, as I know kicks don't count as contacts in official events... so ... Something Like Pixie Butterfly with Knee Bump between pixie and butterfly would be something like two tricks, 4 adds, but only ONE CONTACT... So it wouldn't damage add/contact ratio... So... If you hit Stepping Knee Bump Ducking Butterfly, you can't say - I have hit 5add trick, because you've hit 1 add trick and 4 add trick, but on events it would be count like (1 add + 4 add)/1 contact... I think it's important...

PS. Do kicks count as contacts in Shred30sec.? I know that in routine kicks don't count as contacts, but what with shred?

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 18 Feb 2005 06:54

Something about your understanding of what counts as contacts needs some clarification, Ptaku.

Basic kicks are zero ADDs and don't count as a contact. But a kick that has an ADD value is a contact. So a Pixie Knee Bump is a one ADD trick and thus must count as one contact. Flying inside kick is one ADD, and counts as a contact. Only zero-ADD kicks don't count as a contact.

However, I'm voting that pixie-knee-bumping-whatever is all one trick. I don't believe that what makes up "all one trick" necessarily has to be defined purely by contacts (despite Connor Campbell's excellent example of how this could potentially be abused). Defining tricks as being everything leading up to and including when the bag touches the foot is very convenient for most of what we call tricks, but there are things that fall outside this definition (rakes, pendulums, etc.) and I think that in most cases gimpy and pimpy moves can also fall outside of this common convenient definition.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 18 Feb 2005 07:45

I would count it as one trick as well.

I would love to see a knee bump trick with multiple sets, i.e.

Stepping ducking knee bump(ing) atomic butterfly.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 18 Feb 2005 10:35

the only reason I bring this up is because of sick 1 competetion at CSS, I want to do a sick trick that involves a knee bump, would this count in a sick 1? i guess thats my real question

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 18 Feb 2005 16:19

Thank you Jonathan... You bring me out of bad thinking.

Jdigges · Post by **Jdigges** » 20 Apr 2005 18:16

i think it should count as a unique set. I like to mess around with stepping new taps into whirls and double dexes. looks stylish if you hit it clean

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 20 Apr 2005 18:33

I see it as two tricks, but consider it as one. I like the gimpy, and other such concepts and think of them sorta like a zero add pause on a trick within reason. Actualy since I'm stream of consciousating this post, I think it's more like kicks than anything. If you can bust dex kick dex kick dex kick runs of any length, you would be killing my game. Understanding the kicks are kicks, and not flyers in this scenario. I think it's sorta like a huge combo trick that just gets some sorta "understood" props even though under the current system, it's just a bunch of one add tricks. . .if it's all intentional it's really hard. Gimping combos are in the same mental class for me. I could see keeping it one trick while gimps or kicks are used to link dexes, or a combo ending stall.

Prenz · Post by **Prenz** » 20 Apr 2005 18:42

What Tom said initially makes so much sense (to me) and it should be the standard by which knee bumps can be included in one big move.

Hit the bag with the knee while the bag is in its UPTIME stage. Like pixie knee bumping mirage could be considered one trick--IF done correctly.

Note that this rule would prevent infinite add combos. You can really only get ONE uptime knee into a move. If downtime knee contacts were "allowed", then one could do a pixie, hit about 5 or 6 knee contacts in a row, and finally a mirage all part of one move. That's no good.

Clearly if the bag if falling and you knock it back up into play, it seems that the previous move should end.

Sadly this will not allow for any "stepping ducking knee bumping"... you can't knee bump after a duck cuz the bag is falling. It just seems like such a clean and easy rule to only count "uptime knee bumps".

Downtime knee contacts break the flow of a move while an uptime knee bump does not.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 20 Apr 2005 20:27

Well, I think I can see one type of example of two uptime knee bumps. The ol' double knee, or double knee didit. I'd say that the second knee bump is always uptime in that case, so if you could do the first uptime than the second would still be uptime too. It doesn't much matter though, 'cause that ol' double-knee doesn't leave any room inbetween the consecutive knee bumps to tack on extra dexes or anything. Well, probably no extra room, anyway. I could almost imagine somebody could do some strange combo of double knee didit with a dex inbetween... somebody much better than me...

Craig, are you free to kick Sunday early afternoon?
We could try to do some pendulums back to back...

Prenz · Post by **Prenz** » 20 Apr 2005 20:43

(Check email Jon)

Can the second knee of a didit really be done uptime? By phyics that would mean that you've hit the bag with the second knee higher than where you hit it with the first knee. I thought it was more of a sideways motion after the first knee hit.

Shredster · Post by **Shredster** » 20 Apr 2005 22:28

Actually, based off of what Jon was saying:

A kick is worth 0 adds. A knee bump is worth zero adds.

If we were to try and hit dimwalk like:

Toe > same in > same kick > op out > op clip, thats essentially the same thing as:

Toe > same in > same knee bump > op out > op clip.

Its two different tricks. If you were to kick the bag inbetween moves, that would be considered two separate moves, likewise, a knee bump still receives zero adds and is basically a kick, but with the knee, so wouldn't that also classify a pixie knee bump butterfly as two tricks? I think so.

EDIT: To further make this point clearer, imagine a pixie set that isn't set where you want it. So you pixie set, O CRAP, kick it really quick to get it back inline, then do a butterfly. Same concept, just not stylie...

I think knee bumping is all style, but in no way causes a trick to meld together.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 20 Apr 2005 22:39

This should only matter in Shred30. For some bizarre, stupid reason, add ratio and total adds were reported to judges at Worlds this year, but for practical purposes, this question only matters in a Shred30, or possibly a Sick 1. I think the consensus in either case would be to count it as a single, total trick. That`s what I would do if I were judging.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 21 Apr 2005 06:29

Can the second knee of a didit really be done uptime? By phyics that would mean that you've hit the bag with the second knee higher than where you hit it with the first knee. I thought it was more of a sideways motion after the first knee hit.

Well, its a little sideways, and its a little upward.

A kick is worth 0 adds. A knee bump is worth zero adds.

A knee-bump alone is worth zero adds. A knee-bump preceded by some other element is worth some number of adds.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying, Chris, but the notion that a trick ends upon contact, and that each trick can only have one contact, while applicable to 99% of cases so far, does not make it a universal truth. Well, it could be, if it were simply a matter of definition. We can choose to define tricks and distinguish between them based upon contacts. That doesn't mean that we MUST do it this way. Dustpan has two contacts. We could say that technically its two tricks (a little pendulum and a little rake), but really it's only a trick when those elements are put together. Double-Knee Didit is another such case. One Contact = One Trick has been a very convenient way to distinguish between tricks, but we're losing something for the sake of convenience. Lise Thygesen (sp? sorry, Lise) hit a spinning double-knee didit in competition in Paris last November (She's so cool!) and it was a highlight of the competition for me. Anyway, spinning double knee could be technically described as spinning knee kick (one trick) followed quickly by another knee kick (not a trick at all, but a zero-add contact). Something unique and cool is lost by applying the reductionist view. We're missing something for the sake of convenience. In this case, what have we gained by insisting that this one trick is actually two (or one and a non-trick kick)?

An individual trick can have two dexterity elements and/or two body elements. Though the examples are more limited (so far), I don't see why we must necessarily insist that a trick cannot have two contacts too. Yeah, it will create some challenges in explaining to the newbies that their little series of four Around The Worlds in a row is not in fact one trick called Quadruple Around The World, but we can deal with that and opening up our definition of what constitues an individual trick might open up a range of new possibilities to us freestylers

For some bizarre, stupid reason, add ratio and total adds were reported to judges at Worlds this year, but for practical purposes, this question only matters in a Shred30, or possibly a Sick 1.

Well, part of the score is "Technical Merit" and I think having a technical breakdown of the sum of all moves hit and attempted by a competitor is a legitimate tool for a judge to use when comparing two or more routines. For instance, two routines, after the fact, might have appeared to be very similar technically, especially when the judge can't video review. In fact, one routine had sixty more adds, AND the average difficulty was 0.5 greater. Shit, now I've got some objective basis to help me decide which had greater technical merit. Of course it doesn't come down merely to ADDs, but it could make a good reminder. I think they should report contacts too. They probably did. I don't remember.

RRendsvig · Post by **RRendsvig** » 28 Apr 2005 14:14

I know of noone else who can do this, and I've seen it only once, but on one occation Kasper from our club hit Knee-bump set Atomic Flying Butterfly.
I havn't read any of the above posts, but maybe it worth taking into account that that is possible...?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 28 Apr 2005 14:18

I've already expressed my views on gimping dex combos.

Keep it one trick, at least until someone can show that it is exploitable.

Knee bumps, same or not?

Knee Bump . . . .

Knee bumps, same or not?