The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

General footbag-related topics that don't fit elsewhere go in here.
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Jorden
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The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by Jorden » 18 Aug 2024 10:48

Hey guys,

Gonna go over the issues real quick for awareness purposes, but this is actually a HAPPY thread based on SOLUTIONS.
So it's no secret that footbag is fading. Maybe you disagree? Let's look at Worlds numbers:

2004 Montreal: 47 in Singles Routines, 5 Open Doubles Teams, 30 in Intermediate Routines
2024 Montreal: 14 in Singles Routines, 2 Open Doubles Teams, ZERO entered in Intermediates and Women's Routines

Here is a list of things that I believe that are preventing footbag from thriving. There are many, but for brevity purposes let's start with 5:

1. NO INCENTIVE TO TRAIN. Freestyle footbag is one of the hardest skill sports on Earth, and the tangible effort to reward ratio (not including various internal motivations) for competing is absurd. Older players often quit as soon as they get a "real job" and have real family responsibilities and younger potential players think it through and realize there's no point in even starting.

2. EXPENSIVE/CONFUSING TOURNAMENTS. Larger competitions often incorporate both Freestyle and Net, requiring expensive venues despite dwindling numbers of participants, and despite there being minimal overlap between the 2 at the highest level (maybe what - 20% overlap?). Net and Freestyle players on average have different personalities - Net being more conservative (dare I say laid back?) and Freestyle being more creative/aggressive. Also, Freestylers are a younger demographic on average. Both sides try to draw in new players which leads to mixed messaging.

If X-Games accepted Freestyle Footbag, would Net have to tag along? Would this not confuse spectators? Get what I'm saying?
At the Skateboarding World Championships, if they had something like 'Longboard Volleyball' would that strengthen or dilute its brand? Would it help or hurt its credibility?

If you buy a mattress at a mattress store and they offer you a free bed frame (bundling), would you get the impression that the store is doing well, or struggling to stay in business? How would customers perceive the overall value of the store?

3. NOBODY KNOWS THE PROPER USE CASE. Freestyle Footbag has an identity crisis. Is it a party game? Extreme sport? Niche type of circus juggling? Fitness and rehabilitation activity?
People don't engage in anything that tries to be all things to all people. For example, when people want to cut vegetables, they go the store and buy a chef's knife. Not a swiss army knife that COULD do the job. Why? Because what they're getting is specialized for the job, and perceived as better quality. When people want to start up a new physical activity, they want to know what its purpose is and what it achieves in concrete terms.

4. CONFUSING NAME. What is it called again? Football? Happy Sack? Wood peck? Type "footbag" into a word processor and you often get a red underline - indicating a misspelled word.
Many dictionaries still don't recognize it. Wham-O allows Hacky Sack to be used as the generic term for footbag, but it's a grey area.
Young people might buy a Hacky Sack brand footbag off a store shelf. They soon realize it is of terrible quality and they can't do any tricks with it. They then give up on the sport itself.

5. LACK OF SOUND INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIALS. Self explanatory.

Next post is solutions. Feel free to add your own. Add another issue too - but offer your solution! No right or wrong answers at this stage.
If you think everything is fine the way it is, please don't respond to this thread. You are part of the problem. Thanks.
Jorden Moir

Jorden
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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by Jorden » 18 Aug 2024 11:10

SOLUTIONS:

1. Start year round "GoFundMe" type pages to accept donations for prize money at tournaments.
Players - if you had a really good financial year or know of a friend or family member that's a footbag patron,
get them to donate.

Also, have funding incentives for "most improved player", "best new player of [current year]", and prizes for
individual challenges so that not just the people at the top, but upwardly moving players can benefit and stay motivated.

2. Freestyle Footbag and Footbag Net need to be SEPARATED once and for all!!! The communities of players give off different vibes.
School shows don't need to show both sports. Make them 2 separate presentations if need be. Again, they attract 2 different groups.

Save money by going for smaller venues. Giant empty bleachers doesn't look good anyway! Make 2 separate Worlds, and make them shorter and more concentrated. No reason players need to fork out for 7 hotel stays to compete in 2 or 3 events. We're heading into global recession and nobody can afford this. FOUR days tops!! Each day have a big event take place. No 6 hour livestreams with 4.5 hours of raw net games in hopes to see an hour of freestyle at the end. Where is the HYPE??!! How is either sport supposed to catch on???

3. Someone needs to take the extreme sports angle and hammer it home. Catchy slogans reminding the public how edgy it is. Choreographed promo events. New companies with badass logos. Flashy videos . More skill sports shows a la Honza. But is needs to separate from soccer freestyle - the uniqueness needs to be emphasized.

4. Dare I say the sport needs to start fresh and ADOPT a NEW NAME??? In my opinion, there are too many negative connotations with the old names. Deadbeats. Slackers. Druggies. Hippies. You guys are too terrified of any change - dunno if this would fly. Before you start reacting, keep in mind - a "footbag" already existed. It's an inflatable thick plastic bag at the front of a kayak to keep the kayakers feet comfortable.
Can you see why I think this sport has been a MARKETING NIGHTMARE so far?

5. To be continued... :)
Jorden Moir

boyle
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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by boyle » 25 Aug 2024 04:07

I think this is a good thread. Glad to see you back kicking and posting.

I'm just going to respond to things one by one, with my general thoughts on them.

Incentive to train

- There needs to be more competitions in general. This will make the big competitions better because people are training for their regular comps, meeting others, getting better, then getting a big performance in the big time. I think there's also (even like yourself) going to be a movement of those in the 40+ age bracket who were once pretty good, thinking of coming back to playing to return to fitness etc.

There also needs to be more of a focus on getting young people playing. Which should be through clubs, but as I mentioned somewhere else, you don't really need a club to play or go to a tournament these days. Which reduces the amount of community, which comes back to the first point - because a lot of the motivation to get into sports can be about getting a drink or a meal afterwards (whether that's some run club or these "extreme" sports).

A lot of it is up to the individual, and a lot of the time people go HARD for a long time, but then they get injured, get some "real life" job, family etc and don't have the same time pockets. But rather than adjust their schedule, they just stop completely. If we can get a few people back or get a few people to not leave completely, that can be a win.

2. Comps

There are some really good small level tournaments that join net and freestyle. I'm not so sure if Worlds together is working. Freestyle can literally be done anywhere and you could hold a comp for zero dollars. I think there's room for having the combined tournaments, but we need more tournaments or get togethers which are not. I actually also think there should be a major event for different things like consecutive kicks etc, which could be attractive for either beginner players or people who have been out of the game and want to come back to it, also people who are trying to set new records etc.

Just as a bitter personal thing, X Games have already booted out proper "extreme" sports like inline skating, they're not bringing in footbag (although we had footbag at the 2001 "X-Treme Games" in Sydney. There's a clip from TV - http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/1540 (not sure if that will work)

3. Use case

I think before getting to the Use Case - people need to know what it is at all. In the late 90s-early 2000s, hacky sack was well known, schools, music festivals etc, lots of kicking circles and there were a few extras who took it to some "extreme" level. Now there is none of that general play level so nobody is thinking OH how advanced.

4. Name

I don't think it's such a big deal. I think if we can improve in other areas, the name is irrelevant. Because the sport has become so irrelevant on a world level, I think even terms like hacky sack are pretty much unknown. There is a concern that it's too close to "football" and in some social media searches they will just show results for the latest soccer news rather than footbag tricks.

5. Instructions

Matt Kemmer is doing some good stuff with the "Passback" footbag channel. There's always room for more though. What we really need to do though (there is not the motivation or probably the players) is go back to the 80s, have people touring around, giving physical handouts of how to play. One other problem is that whenever somebody does something, they seem to "go it alone" and there's not much consulting or feedback. TJ also has an interesting app in the works which is more about tracking your play. There's another thread I think in the projects forum.

Onto the solutions

1. This is something I've put quite a bit of though into over the years but never quite had the confidence it could work. If the community could run a Patreon style "Footbag Fund" - whoever is in pays how many dollars per month and then over the course of the year that funds travel to events, people to film stuff, the more money you put in the more exclusive content you get. My main concerns are - not getting enough people to make a good fund, and not having things like always having a video person ready to go. You would also have the idea that the people contributing also get to make the decision, eg, we've got enough to send a player to Worlds, have a vote among the payers for who is the most deserving to go, or have some kind of video contest to then create more content for the fund.

2. I already talked about this one in the previous area. I kind of like the idea that Worlds is a totality of all footbag sports, but it needs to be attracting more players. In order to do that, there needs to be more small tournaments, and these ones don't really need any costs at all (or very minimal). Being part of Superball I think was really good, but once again small turnout.

Just on your numbers, in Prague 2003 I believe there were 42 competitors...in intermediate. http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1035277529

I actually think we need to be at *anything* with kicking in it (officially or not). Kings Cup takraw, jianzi, Superball etc. even things like FISE which are some of the "extreme" sports competitions. If there can be someone kicking in front of a soccer final etc, that's a positive. Challenge is to reliably have people who will be at these various events.

The other big idea I have which is really just winding the clock back 20 years is having a visible footbag presence at music festivals. The Danish used to have regular slots at Roskilde. When I first went to the Big Day Out in Australia there were actually rival footbag stands in among the entertainment. I think just having someone video it and make it look cool and like a fun vibe would be a great idea.

3. I think the big part of this is on companies. There are very few companies and all that there are could do a lot more to support the game. Also, properly edited videos can be really great. As well as being part of multi sport things - like Vasek was in that "Book of Cool" many years ago.

4. I don't think this is such a big deal and I think there are easier gains to be made with small changes. But could be worth it someday.

5. Why did I just write so many words, I've got work to do...


This wasn't in the list - but I will just say "as a teacher". If somebody came along offering to do a footbag performance, I would probably say no. Particularly if they were asking for any amount of money. Here in Australia, all the sporting clinics are regulated and run by sports which are officially recognised. These might not necessarily be Olympic sports, but they have a national body, blah blah blah, and often some other company will run the sport for them. If it's just some random people doing a sport nobody has ever heard of, to be honest I'm not that keen.

Jorden
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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by Jorden » 26 Aug 2024 12:53

Thanks Dan for the input.

For anyone looking for an INCREDIBLE read on how successful products and services are marketed and how the
social dynamics work (it's actually learnable and FULLY predictable!) I implore you to read the RULES written by the top experts in the field:

https://www.r-5.org/files/books/etholog ... ing-EN.pdf

Thinking about it today - maybe all the sport needs to get its new legs (pun intended) is to FULLY commit to being the little buddy of football freestyle.

Sign the divorce papers with Footbag Net. Like, would it be the end of the world if WFC was held at Superball next year? Would that not be cost effective? If footbag tags along to every freestyle football event, would that not solve the "too few events" problem?
A little drafting could go a long way. hehe

Let's face it. Right now Worlds is whoever shows up and does some preparation does well. It shouldn't be like that.
The actual best people should show up. It should give a fair ranking of how skilled each player was for THAT year. Think "2000" decade.

Some people are saying Tokyo Japan should host Worlds. What would that trip cost in total for North Americans? Not unreasonable to say...$5000?
Keep it a central area where a large pool of players are located. Maybe it should stay somewhere like Czech until real sponsorship and funding is established.
Jorden Moir

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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by acxel22 » 03 Sep 2024 16:02

okay interesting topic, here's some quick toughts

first thing, modified is DEAD, new accounts cannot be made and many active players don't come here, I think best forum for this discuss is on discord, or sadly facebook, but Discord can have anything sorted and easily found as where facebook is like a graveyard for threads and makes all hard to find once it's inactive.

separation of net and freestyle, We are at this stage for sure 100%, superball gave us enough reasons to join them as well, one can dream of actual worlds at superball

money for events, it can solve the situation for some top players, but still same situation for 90% of players who won't podium and still pay tons of money for worlds

worlds in japan won't be 5k, maybe 500-800$ more then a week in paris, but then again, can tokyo run it? doubtful they want to, Taishi would like it, but I am not seeing this happen with all he as on is table to deal with.

When I started we had regular online comps for open and intermediate, this is not happening anymore and his something easy to do to help promote.

I even had an online routine contest like 4 years ago (pre covid), and it was okay, I put little prize money in it and ended up having 3 intermediate, 3 women, 12 open. Almost similar numbers of this year worlds (0 int 0women 15ish open), but all online with no travelling or money required + Prize money was possible. for intermediates it's a win, but for the rest I am writing this and thinking how the hell will money help? even online with prize money people had little motivation if I compare to worlds this summer
reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AcQRJUNoxY&t=2094s

I think the name does not matter much as well,
Mathieu Gauthier

Jorden
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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by Jorden » 05 Sep 2024 17:16

Thanks for the input Math.

Au contraire, I will say that maybe modified's strengths are actually its weaknesses. For now.
No new accounts doesn't matter much, because new players in general have become rarer.
These aren't the players that are moving and shaking things anyway. Not on the macro level.

The hidden-ness of modified means ideas can be tested with longstanding players and the
ripple effects will be minor.

The solution to not being able to find new threads is MAKE NEW ONES.
Who cares if it's a repeat from a million years ago.

I had a couple invites to Discord recently. To me it lacks the maturity of somewhere like here.
The Pokemon-style avatars...are you a human? (teeheehee) every time you login. Kind of childish.
I can see video gamers and tweens using this. Seems like a cuter reddit with less anger.

A LOT of people left Facebook. It's like Baby Boomer-book now. They should compensate
users for selling their data to third parties. It's disgusting.

Footbag communities suffer from hiding syndrome in general.

We are 100% aligned with the separation of net and freestyle. Net is a huge money suck (heard from a little bird) and basically
needs donation money to even run. This is ridiculous. Freestyle could actually be profitable for organizers and players if it went its own way.

If the top 5 players could make a living...the inspiration and dreaming from the fans and aspiring champion players would be fine enough for them to justify losing some money each year. At least dangle the carrot! Give some incentive to people with busy lives.

More online comps would be a great idea. Costs almost nothing to run. Gets the hype up, gets players training and improving.

I am committed to having full scale solutions for the lack of motivation part...this will take some time to develop though.

JM
Jorden Moir

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Re: The Footbag Macro SOLUTIONS Thread

Post by Jorden » 05 Sep 2024 17:30

The name issue, I would argue is actually CRITICAL.

Businesses that choose a name that doesn't resonate with their customers fail constantly.
Institutions that try to be everything to everyone end up being nothing to no one.

There are many great marketing and branding books out there.

Some common examples from these books:

Ralph Lifshitz would have never built an $8 billion fashion empire
if he never changed his name to Ralph Lauren.

Would the general public watch a movie with Jennifer Anastasakis in it if she played the star role? No?
What about Jennifer Aniston? Y'know, the name she changed it to?

Successful rebrands are possible, and in some cases, necessary and vital.

I've been told by colleagues that "footbag" sounds like someone getting kicked in the nuts. Ouch!
Jorden Moir

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