Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

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Swizzle
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Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by Swizzle » 19 Sep 2014 14:05

This occurred 9.19.2014 on the facebook group freestyle footbaggers.
The bold is my interpretation. (Cory Allen)


Matt: God damnit Angeski. Next time, round out that homophobia with a little racism and sexism, and some religious intolerance to boot. It's kinda 1-dimensional the way it is. Also, your Middle America is showing.

Seriously, that is not funny. Beyond the fact that it's bigoted bullshit, it is not even real *humor*. "Fags talk and walk and dress funny" isn't a joke; it's the observation of an idiot. Are you an idiot, Mike? I kinda thought that you were a sweet and considerate and caring person who *helps* people for a living, not hurts them. Which is it?

Matt reveals he is offended, and states he does not find the joke funny; classifies it as “not even real humor.” Matt claims the Mike’s joke stemmed from intolerance towards others who have different opinions than Mike. Matt questions the mental capacity of Mike.


Nick: Oh man... Whatever. I put it in because I know Mike personally and I know he means no harm against gay people. Give it a rest or I will take the video off.

Nick claims Mikes’ actions are not discriminatory or intending to offend. Nick implies that perhaps what is best is to let it go, or else the video he spent creating and put effort into would have to be taken down. No more could be offended. No more can enjoy the content.

Matt: "Give it a rest"? If you have not integrated into your brain yet that words and actions have *personal contexts for every person*, and that, whether or not you know Mike Angeski, that sort of thing can be hurtful? If you haven't, you should.

Matt claims that regardless of intentions, actions like Mike’s can still be hurtful. (not exactly sure how to interpret “person contexts for every person” statement but: Matt says deductions of words and actions can lead to discovery of a person’s belief system. )

Matt: Look, I have personally had sex with a few men in my life. Not my cup of tea, but, does this validate my complaint, you ignorant shit? Does that make me enough of a fag for you to not tell me to give it a rest?

Matt bravely and openly reveals a reason for why he has taken offense. Matt insults nick: “you ignorant shit.” Matt states he is a victim. Matt says there is no reason for him to give it a rest.

Mike: To the people that know me, Its all fun and games and that's just me being me. Matt Cross, im not a mean person, you know that and you also know or should that i like everybody and get along with them. If you didn't find it funny, that's ok, if you got offended cause of your lifestyle, you shouldn't of cause it's not directed to you or anyone. I did it to be out there just like my sense of humor, feel free to bash it, that's what its there for people

Mike reiterates he meant no offense, classifies his actions as fun and games. Mike claims historically he avoids being mean. Mike claims the action or joke was not directed towards Matt, nor anyone. Mike says his actions have reflected his sense of humor, which is open to others’ comments or judgments, whether or not that may include bashing.

Matt: OK, mike. Thanks for letting me know that you're a bigot who thinks it's funny to make fun of homosexuals. YOU'RE MAKING FUN OF AN OPPRESSED PEOPLE. Do you like jokes about slavery? Do you like jokes about jews being burned in ovens in the holocaust? Do you really not understand how someone might complain about that? I don't care what you THINK I know about you. What I DO know about you is that you think bigotry and homophobia are funny, and, no matter how much fun you are around a campfire, I want nothing to do with you if that's who you are. Period.

I'm not complaining, Mike. I'm telling you that I'm not at all interested in being your friend.

Matt accuses Mike of bigotry. Matt lists reasons for why he believes Mike’s joke is immoral and wrong. Matt asks if Mike understands why some may be offended. Matt expresses his (implied: different) opinion of how bigotry and homophobia are not funny. Matt expresses his disinterest in having a relationship with Mike because of his beliefs.

Mike: I got the socks at a sex store.

Mike lists a fact concerning where he acquired the article of which Matt took offense.

Matt: I AM OFFENDED BECAUSE YOU ARE REPRESENTING *FOOTBAG*. When you do that shit, you make me embarrassed to be associated with idiotic, bigoted bullshit.

Matt feels his image and more largely footbag’s image has been affected in an embarrassing or negative way due to Mike’s “idiotic, bigoted bullshit” behavior.

Mike: Sorry you feel that way Matt Cross, didn't know those things about you. I don't take any joke i say serious. Some things i have been told have good to me but, i know that if i give it out, i must take it to be fair. Sorry again Matt. I still don't think of you any different.
Nick Polini, if it's such a big deal, just delete my submission. I'm ok with that

Mike apologizes for the way Matt feels and interpreted the behavior (implied not his intention), and states he learned more about Matt. Mike says he was not serious in his action. (** I don’t understand “some things…” Mike seems to say since he has expressed his opinion, Matt should be able to express his own). Mike says sorry again, and assures Matt he doesn’t judge him in a (perhaps implied: negative) way after what he has learned. Mike states that perhaps it is best delete his submission, since it has caused a rouse.

Matt: see, there ya go, mike, you didn't know. You just blasted that bigoted bullshit out there on the world, and you didn't know. Well, now you know. You gonna do it again, dude?

Matt agrees with Mike’s concern that his profane action stems from ignorance. Matt asks if he has learned.


Matt: "hey, let's get this back on track, guys! funny video! whoah! dexes!!"

Matt claims that any comments away from the topic of the blatantly offensive action Mike had done is (perhaps: immoral or ignorant). Matt ridicules those who had attempted to change the subject.

Mike: No, i won't. I'm an easy guy and like i said, ididn't mean to step on people.

Mike reiterates he did not intend to step on people – (perhaps: hurt). Mike states he will not do anything like this again.

Matt: Mike, I know you'd never mean that, because I know you're a sweet, caring guy, but that doesn't change that words and actions like yours can be harmful. Do you see that?

Mike, don't ask him to delete your submission because it's a big deal that is a pain in the ass.

ASK HIM TO DELETE IT BECAUSE IT'S OFFENSIVE AND YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SENT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE - *Not* because stupid old fag matt cross is complaining. Are you REALLY not getting this, dude?

Matt (sarcastically?) understands that Mike is sweet and caring, but reiterates that words and actions can be harmful regardless of intention. Matt claims that Mike should feel sorry for his offensive and immoral behavior, rather than feeling sorry that his behavior simply caused a rouse.

Nick: I'm sorry. Mike is sorry. We're both not against gays or anyone, as a matter of fact. Let us move on with our lives now and chuckle at mat's kitty grabbing a footbag with its mouth.

Nick seems to try and relieve tension, apologies or deflects the topic or rouse; Nick tries to guide or lead feelings associated with video in a more positive direction.

Matt: that looks more dismissive/deflective than apologetic (being that you didn't actually acknowledge what the disconnect is between "not against gays or anyone" and "posting, and then defending homophobic content", and how you have resolved that), but, if that's what you have to offer, then, thanks!

Matt states that still, Nick is avoiding the point or topic, and has not (perhaps: learned) how his actions are (perhaps: ignorant or immoral).

Nick: Think of this video as a stand up comedy variety show. If you don't agree with one of the comedians' messages, you don't send them angry hate mail, because it's a comedy show. You just ignore it and enjoy the other acts. Of course there will be stuff you don't agree with in a comedy show, but you ignore that stuff if you really disagree with it that much.

I want being deflective. I literally just apologized because I felt that its was what I should do"

Nick admits to being deflective implying he disagrees with Matt’s perspective, but felt compelled to apologize because (perhaps: he believes it was not Mike’s intention to offend). Nick states that he believes you should not criticize the parts you disagree with, rather, anticipate and enjoy the parts you do agree with, when comedians mock and ridicule.


Matt: ( MATT QUOTES ENTIRE PREVIOUS BLOCK OF TEXT THAT NICK STATED )
The fact that you think that this is like a standup comedy show where no one complains is direct evidence that your "apology" was a deflection. Just because you SHOULD say it, and you DID say it, doesn't mean that you understood why it's a problem and why it is that you're actually saying you're sorry.

Someone who was actually sorry would STOP DEFENDING IT and STOP MAKING BULLSHIT EXCUSES ("It's just like a comedy show; chill out").

People who are actually sorry for their actions don't DEFEND those actions BECAUSE they ARE SORRY.

Are you really not getting this, dude?

Again, save this and read it in five years, just make sure you put a diaper on before you do, because you're going to shit when you see what you've written today.

Matt states his feeling that Nick’s intent is to deflect the argument was correct. Matt states he is not being heard, and that Nick has not learned. Matt feels that Nick’s decision to avoid directly debating the topic is bullshit. Matt seems to demand to be heard, and demands those people who are ignorant to give an educated apology. Clever remark at the end stating that eventually Nick and Mike will understand how they are wrong.

Matt: Nick, who could ever question your intent? No one.

You're one of *the most important people in footbag*, who pushes the game, in real life and online, more than just about anyone else.

That said, consciousness of this stuff is necessary, and if you're not conscious of it, you're probably going to hear about it.

Thanks for the kindest of intents, and all your wonderful, valuable efforts in the community. Again, I feel that it's important for you to understand these things, precisely because you're such a big deal in the game, and what *you specifically* do and say, Nick Polini, has an affect on something that I care a lot about.

It's also important for me to feel like footbag is a haven for people who have a hard time socially (like... uh, you know... JUST LIKE YOU AND ME, NICK), and part of that means keeping bigotry, even systemic bigotry that doesn't come directly from a place of hate, OUT of footbag.

Love you, man. Keep pushing. The only reason I went so hard on this is that you resisted my assertion that "this sort of thing has no place in footbag" right from the get go.

Nick had removed the video at this point. Matt states that “consciousness of this stuff is necessary,” and that Matt will probably try to educate those who are ignorant. Matt praises Nick’s efforts in the community, and reiterates the necessity that Nick is educated on the main topic of homophobia and how Mike’s action offended. Matt says that others’ actions affect him. Matt seems to state that he relates to nick via social anxiety. Matt encourages Nick, and states that the only reason he was so demanding was because “this sort of thing has no place in footbag.”






********************************************************

I want to open my statement of opinion by saying: welcome to humanity. Communication is harrrddd >(

I attempted to illustrate be an unbiased, objective, or third party interpretation of the comments; however, I am biased and that may have shown in my writing. In addition, this was not all of the comments that had been exchanged, I left out a few more that were:
1. Hardly relevant
2. Off topic
3. On topic, but not written by the primary parties, usually an added thought or agreement towards a side.




IMO, Matt Cross, you need help. You are probably in a low place and you seem insecure.

You’re a complete and utter hypocrite in the accusation that Mike’s behavior was some form of intolerance towards (you), who has different views, because you couldn’t drop the topic, demanded to be understood, and demanded to educate those who seemed to refuse to be educated or acknowledge your ideas because they probably disagreed. Nick argued it’s a comedy show, and you argued its ignorance and immoral. Tolerate each other’s views? One party did, Matt Cross, you could not.

Matt, I’m assuming you believe other jokes about slavery or jews are wrong, yet I see them all over the internet implying some people think they’re funny...

“why do black people only have nightmares? Because the last black person to have a dream got shot.” – I remember this one because I think it was fucking hilarious. It’s comic relief to an atrocious point in history but can reflect acceptance of those people’s actions with the intent to learn or move on from it. Or maybe it’s a horrible joke and should be censored. (no intentional false dilemma)

Nick and Mike apologize, deflect, and state their opinion without insults or irrationality. Matt Cross, you took offense to something that wasn’t directly intended to offend you. You’ll spend your life *correcting* people via the internet if you continue to make such irrational choices. Matt, you insult both Nick and Mike when asking if he’s an idiot, calling him an ignorant shit, or by stating that his response is bullshit. In order to treating people how he wants to be treated, I have no problem saying: Matt, go fuck yourself you arrogant prick.

Unfortunately, your defensive, self righteous, controlling, arrogant, intolerable, and hypocritical role you’ve played today reflects the Footbag community. However, I am not embarrassed to be associated with Footbag even in the event of your complete blindness and its toll on the community’s image. You or anyone else who attempts to define me by some incomplete average belief system of a footbag player in the U.S. is a complete fuck-face. That will never encompass the full person I have grown to be.

P.S. Fags DO talk and walk and dress funny – to me. Personally I enjoy their company, and find it easy to get along with them. But that opinion is biased because of my position and perspective that has been shaped with time and experiences. Some other people I have seen hate fags and think they’re going to hell. But society has (rightly) said that we should be free to express our opinions while leaving out assault, murder, or genocide. In the end, it always ends bad – death and tragedy – so please refrain from harassment and censorship while I enjoy the creativity of this video. Or perhaps I am ignorant and childish in every way, so kill me.


You all should certainly believe me when I say I wrote all of this because I couldn’t watch the video lol... Cause it's not. Although I don't see the need to disclose why.


Have fun debating ya'll.
Last edited by Allan on 20 Sep 2014 11:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed the long line of stars *** that was throwing the whole page alignment out. Was actually the last edit, this edit is to make up for the fact that I forgot to put this note on the first edit ...

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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by mc » 19 Sep 2014 14:46

you are a very wise person and I agree with your (literally) bolded descriptions.

thank you for your candor, sincerely. Also, the part where you weren't sure if I was sincere or not shows that I need to use the word "sincerely" more often, because I was.


---


how much tolerance is someone supposed to show? Well, clearly more than I did. I have apologized to Nick for not doing my best to present that information to him more sensitively and kindly. He's having probably one of the worst days of his life right now, and the way I chose to speak to him is probably contributing to the awfulness of his day in a significant way. I hope that the words that we have shared since then have had a balming effect on the emotional burns from my acidity that came before.

Do you think that those that fought for civil rights on a racial level should have been more tolerant of racism instead of rioting?

Do you think that those that speak up about issues surrounding white privilege are being intolerant of systemic racism?

I was thinking about this earlier... Should I have been more soft-handed? Being heavy handed involved a price that was paid - I said some upsetting shit that rightfully upsetted some people who don't like upsetting shit. Now I have to pay the price for that. But I pay it gladly.

See, here's the thing - if I had said that stuff to Nick quietly, politely, and privately, I could have very well made my point. However, it would not have gotten the attention that it did. I would not have had the opportunity to shine some light on the systemic bigotry that has made its way into the game that I love so much, just as it makes its way into everything else *because it is systemic.*

So, guess what, folks, I'm a huge queer (I like vaginas, but that does not preclude queerness) and I'm tired of hearing you, at footbag tournaments, call the guy that cut you off in traffic a homo, just as if a woman player wouldn't like it if you called a driver who cut you off a "bitch". The latter is not acceptable, neither is the former.

Say whatever you want. I'll do the same.

Cory, I'd sincerely be interested in more of your bolded analyses of the remainder of the conversation that occurred, because I think that you have made some very astute and valuable observations. I thank you for that.

I'll have to make sure to come back in 5 years and read this, and Cory, I assure you (sincerely), I will be wearing a diaper when I do, because I will surely shit when I see the things I've said.

I accept that, though. That's life. I shit when I see the shit that I shat out 5 years ago anyway.

poopfuly yours,

shit captain

;) <3
BRICK!

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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by Allan » 19 Sep 2014 14:59

So, um, what's up with the personal attacks about negative shit from another forum? Why bring that negativity to modified and force me to consider actually moderating something for the first time in years? Why?

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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by mc » 19 Sep 2014 15:07

Allan, I don't know how to delete any more. you're right please delete this and my last msg I'll keep it on FB sorry
BRICK!

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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by Swizzle » 19 Sep 2014 16:51

I also apologize Allan. Go ahead and do what's best..

Personally i thought that what I wrote might help in some way.
Cory Allen
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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by Pasquar » 20 Sep 2014 06:28

Seeing as how the entire Facebook thread was deleted, maybe this conversation could continue here.

I agree that it started on FB and or sold be kept there, but the entire thing was deleted and I personally feel nothing was resolved, I think people are attempting to sweep this under the rig and pretend like it never happened.

pardon my French but: fuck that.
Nick Pasquarello


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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by Swizzle » 20 Sep 2014 08:01

Personally...... I feel that the topic should have left the facebook group, and it's in a better spot here. I feel we will push people away debating a topic such as this in the group where people have learned to expect positive video's / stories / event listings / projects and etc.. Whereas this is specifically in the discussion thread; and it doesn't post notifications unless you decide to subscribe to the topic.

I also think Allan should be able to do whatever he thinks is best because he virtually owns this website if i remember correctly. Thanks for your contributions again Allan.

Further, I think that losing all of the original posts could be brought up as a problem, but no changing that now.

And I have nothing left to say other than sorry. If my harsh and blunt opinion took away from you in any way, that was not my intention. I only felt compelled to share an opposing view to Matt, because I felt he controlled the situation with insults and a hypocritical intolerance. My choice was to provide an analysis of the behavior, and then intentionally reply with more insults, and a hypocritical intolerance of my own, because I thought it might do some good. That may seem or turn out to be an incredible foolish and immature choice, but frankly I felt we were playing ball -- if nobody was calling out cheap shots I'm gonna take some of my own. Hopefully there is little disagreement when I say that perhaps we all now see the value in playing by some better rules (standards). Again, sorry..

Sincerely,

Corbin (Dallas) Allen
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Re: Funny Freestyle Footbag Trick Online Competition Debate

Post by mc » 20 Sep 2014 14:36

Cory did exactly the right thing. He cooled me off, and he reminded Nick that Nick has allies and friends, and that people know that he's not a demon.

Cory and I have actually been in cahoots the whole time. We just didn't know it.

"Personally...... I feel that the topic should have left the facebook group, and it's in a better spot here. I feel we will push people away debating a topic such as this in the group where people have learned to expect positive video's / stories / event listings / projects and etc.. Whereas this is specifically in the discussion thread; and it doesn't post notifications unless you decide to subscribe to the topic."

This may be the most valuable thing you've said yet.

I screenshotted (screenshat?) the whole thing, so it's not lost. Shall I upload?
BRICK!

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