The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

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Do we upgrade to phpBB 3 or stay with 2?

Poll ended at 12 Jul 2012 18:33

Yes
9
100%
 
Total votes: 9

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Allan
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The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

Post by Allan » 28 Jun 2012 18:33

The software that runs this forum is old and out of date. It's "phpBB 2." There is now "phpBB 3" available. Upgrading to it is advisable. But it's not a decision that I want to make unilaterally because it would effect a few things:

- The custom, rotating banner would die. It might be easy to have some similar effect, but it's something I've totally not looked at and it's just not something I particularly want to worry about. I think we should upgrade and then worry about it later. I think it would be cool to get new submissions and have, perhaps <ahem> better images?

- It would also mostly kill chat, as I wouldn't really want to spend the time figuring that out either. I could keep it if there was enough objection; does anyone ever use it? Is it worth me spending my time on? I wouldn't need to kill it all together, but its integration into the forum (how many users chatting notification; probably the links to it) would go away.

- It's possible that the "bookmarks" functionality might get lost. Is this really a big deal? I could investigate to see if there's a phpBB 3 upgrade path, or perhaps an analog plugin for 3, but I'd rather not ;)

- Any other custom modifications that have been made over the years would go away as well. I don't think there's much of that, if any. But I'm not going to go through the installation with a fine-tooth comb to find out, and there wouldn't really be enough of that which would be important enough to keep around.

- There would need to be a bit of down time; it would likely take about 2-3 hours as the database huge and migration takes forever because I basically have to run the process on my local computer and juggle things accordingly. It's relatively trivial to do, but the last time I tried it I spent hours clicking through its shitty web-based migration process, only to have it fail half-way through :(

- As mentioned above, the theme would be updated. We're currently using the stock theme, so this is basically a non-issue, but things would look & feel somewhat different. Everything would work basically the same, the content wouldn't change, but the graphics would be different. This is probably nothing but a good thing, but ask Facebook: people don't like change.

The Benefit to Upgrading:

MOBILE ACCESS. Under the new system, we could support a new theme that would format itself properly on a smart phone.

BETTER FOR ME :) The site runs on my server, so I'd like it to be as performant and secure as possible. Running 10 year old code is somewhat risky and probably takes up more system resources than necessary.

ACCESS TO MODERN PLUGINS. There are things like Facebook Like buttons for posts and the above mention mobile support that we're missing out on because we're stuck in the last decade of software.

The only drawback I can see for upgrading is that IF AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. The forum works. It works fast. Why change?

Newer isn't necessarily always better, but I think it's worth it in this case to give it a whirl despite the minor caveats noted above. Thoughts? Questions? Have a I missed anything in considering this?

A

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Re: The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

Post by rjadamson » 28 Jun 2012 21:55

Allan, thanks for making this thread. I read in Erik Chan's "Forum 'likes' " thread that this would require you to donate your own time. Originally I was going to list in detail how I felt about each bullet point but it comes down to the fact the current banner images don't look good, the chat system is crappy/unused, and I don't even care enough to mention the other things. I browse the forums many times each day.

I am new to this community and have virtually no programming experience, but I have been active on many web forums over the years (computer gaming and whatnot). Considering this is really the main online hub of the online footbag community I think it's a shame that we are not only operating on old software, but we are operating on an outdated version of a free program (no offense intended). I have had moderator/administrator privileges on a handful of the aforementioned forums, and phpBB is in my experience hands down the best free web forum software around. But vBulletin is head and shoulders better than phpBB!

As far as I know vBulletin is completely capable of taking the phpBB database and switching it over to its own system. From what I remember the admin panel was better than phpBB's -- it's easy to deal with user permissions and the like. Users can format posts with more freedom. As the software is not free you can damn well believe the security will be good. There is a flexible CMS system that would allow the forums to have a real home page with RSS elements. This one might rub some people the wrong way but vBulletin even has a standalone blogging module so that anyone interested in leaving behind the antiquated system of making a forum thread as a "blog" could do so. The user-made theme and mod community is strong. You would also have the ability to submit tickets to the developers when troubleshooting instead of having to just figure things out on your own (so potentially less time spent wasted on trial and error forum management).

Basically if you are going to invest your time into upgrading/modernizing the forums I think it's worth looking into this other software, and seeing if we can't get the community to scrape together enough money for a lifetime subscription to it. vBulletin 5 was recently announced, but I don't know what they're going to charge for it. It's USD $285 for a lifetime subscription to vBulletin 4.x and the blogging/CMS mods. The only downside (other than the fact there is a one-time cost) I really see to vBulletin is that the mobile suite requires a yearly fee to maintain. But anyone with a smart phone in the first place can just download an app like Tapatalk to use the forums.

All in all I think upgrading the phpBB software is a good idea, but it would be awesome to take it a step further. I see a lot of interest within the footbag community to legitimize our sport and I think something like this would be a step in that direction. I would donate $100 to this and buy you beer if you ever make it down to Seattle to shred. I don't want to seem like I'm volunteering you for what would probably be more work than just upgrading the forums and adding a Facebook/Twitter button, but this is an exciting prospect.

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Re: The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

Post by Muffinman » 29 Jun 2012 00:26

rjadamson wrote:the current banner images don't look good, the chat system is crappy/unused, and I don't even care enough to mention the other things. I browse the forums many times each day.
I forgot that there was a chat.

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Post by C-Fan » 29 Jun 2012 10:37

As long as old posts don't disappear, I'm all in favor of an upgrade. The banners have been dated for years now, nobody uses chat, I didn't know there were bookmarks, and 3 hours of modified being offline is nothing. Sometimes an entire day goes by without a post anywhere.

Hopefully an upgrade would make it look better, and not scare off new users. As long as the new version still contains all the old posts, that's all I care about.

If the community decides to pitch in money for a new system, or to compensate Allan for his time, I'm down to throw in for either.

Thanks Allan for even considering this.

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Post by jay7 » 29 Jun 2012 12:52

C-Fan wrote:As long as old posts don't disappear, I'm all in favor of an upgrade. The banners have --- Everything Ken said ---- n to throw in for either.

Thanks Allan for even considering this.
Jay Boychuk

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Allan
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Post by Allan » 29 Jun 2012 17:50

I'm not sure how I feel about going to vB. Frankly, the idea of spending money on this when World's desperately needs funding (amongst about a million other footbag things that need money) kind of rubs me the wrong way a bit ;) I mean, there would be some tangible benefit to moving, I'm sure, so I'm not against the idea per se; but, I guess if I were being honest, I'd say that it would be more work for me, and that I'm disinclined to volunteer. I don't feel great saying that, but ...

It's not a bad idea, but on this issue, I'd have to say that my vote would go for sticking with phpBB and not ever spending any money on these forums. If you can get a few people to chime in with support for it, I'd reconsider my willingness to help. Also, that being said, if someone else wanted take the lead on that sort of project, I'd (obviously) provide whatever would be required. I ain't trying to dictate what happens here, that's for sure :)

As for the old posts issue Ken raised, my top priority in this would be to keep the archive intact, so there would be nothing lost. This is why the process takes so long, and why I have to take the site offline for a while.

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Post by SlashC » 29 Jun 2012 18:06

IMO the footbag community hub needs to move away from being soley forum driven and be something more like specialized facebook. I think I've brought this up before, but for example look at the following hooping community website:

http://www.hoopcity.ca/

I'm not sure what its running off of, but i know the site admin so i could find out. I'm not as big a fan of the forum on that website, but everything else is great:
  • - custom profiles
    - custom groups (i.e. clubs)
    - organized media including a built in video player and support for linking to existing youtube media
    - photo galleries
    - chat
    - events
    - blogs
    - ect
it basically has everything including tutorials, so we could load up the links to anz trickz and have it easy to find right off the bat for new players.

i think these types of websites take more work to run though and the girl who runs it makes some money back advertising/selling tutorials, so she has incentive to keep it running. If it was all volunteer work it would be hard to keep something like that going. i think basically that was what ellis was trying to do with flipsider, but then nobody participated. and so he decided not to keep it going

I think it's a good idea to work towards something more like vbulletin or the hooping community website, but unless somebody has a lot of free time there needs to be some monetary incentive for them to keep it going. That's always been a plague for modified. The forum moderators come and go and many people are rude to them, so they don't want to stay on, ect.

i think going bigger might be a good idea at some stage, but its sort of a chicken and the egg thing. if someone puts in the time and money to setup footbag facebook then they need to have some sort of return on their investment and the footbag community is already really small and somewhat divided. Sure the website might help build the community, but until the community is bigger it's hard to find a return on the investment. imagine fourkast and freedom footbags buying advertising space on the frontpage like with the hoopcity website. That's like an everybody win type activity since the site admin and advertiser both make money and the community can find targeted products that they want. However, this only works if the community is large enough to keep things going. (hence chicken and the egg)

In any case, in the absence of someone willing to take the time/risk on such an ambitious project I support switching to whatever's easiest for Allan (i.e. phpbb).

[edited/pasted from facebook convo with Reilley]
Rory "Tophat" Dawson

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"You can ask a stranger, my legs is fast and danger!"

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Allan
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Post by Allan » 29 Jun 2012 19:13

There is a lot that could be said about moving to a whole different type of system, but I do think that that's a bit beyond the scope of this discussion; it has political ramifications and should probably be a separate thread. In this particular instance, I would just like to gather support for a simple course of action that doesn't require too much thought.

In any case, we'd be in a much better position to transition to any other type of system from phpBB3; being on 2 only limits our options in that respect. Baby steps, yes?

For what it's worth, I generally agree that some new form of social networking framework would be great. I'm aware of a few plans out there that are ambitious, but as always timelines are too fuzzy to say with any certainty that anything will actually pan out.

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Post by Allan » 29 Jun 2012 19:18

And, oh, hey Reilley, I'd love to make it down to Seattle for a shred. My future is pretty up in the air right now, but ya never know :) You're always welcome to hop on the clipper to Victoria for a session!

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Post by rjadamson » 29 Jun 2012 23:13

AllanHaggett wrote:I mean, there would be some tangible benefit to moving, I'm sure, so I'm not against the idea per se; but, I guess if I were being honest, I'd say that it would be more work for me, and that I'm disinclined to volunteer. I don't feel great saying that, but ...
The amount of initial setup (and subsequent maintenance) of a more sophisticated system is really big drawback that I foresaw (other than money). Again, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to chain you to a project that would eat up your time. I wish I had experience doing this kind of stuff!

I do think that in the realm of "footbag things" that need funding this would be a good investment in terms of making footbag itself accessible to people. I can't speak for everyone, but there are a few regular kickers in our Seattle club that seem put off by the rather archaic web presence of footbag (an exception being some of the high definition/slow motion video being released). Getting involved in the forums has definitely made me more apt to stick with footbag. I have social incentives to keep playing. I feel as though some of our other players have not developed that momentum quite yet, and a solid web presence may help.
SlashC wrote:i think basically that was what ellis was trying to do with flipsider, but then nobody participated. and so he decided not to keep it going
I thought about this while I was kicking earlier. I do vaguely remember Eliot's site from my first foray into kicking in 2007, but I don't remember the alleged social element to the site. I do remember that by then these forums were already the place to socialize (I was never once directed to the footbag.org forums by anyone) -- it makes me wonder if it didn't take off just because of execution... or because people simply did not want to migrate to somewhere with a different web address and unestablished forum database. Social networking has certainly evolved over the years, but how many people at this point would leave Facebook for another new social networking site? In addition, how many people actually leave Facebook each time they complain about when some trivial aesthetic element is implemented/changed?

Basically I suspect that provided the forum archive itself is preserved that a myriad of other changes could happen around it and not cause anyone distress.
AllanHaggett wrote:In any case, we'd be in a much better position to transition to any other type of system from phpBB3; being on 2 only limits our options in that respect. Baby steps, yes?
You are absolutely right, and I think the upgrade is a great idea to start with. Thanks for hearing me out.

A day trip to shred would be fun. If you have time in your schedule in the future we could probably also host you.
Last edited by rjadamson on 30 Jun 2012 00:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jeremy » 29 Jun 2012 23:18

I'm definitely in favour of upgrades. Rory's idea is great, but difficult to implement while keeping the sentimental people happy. Even moving to VB is probably too much for some people. I think just updating to phpBB3 would be the least controversial. Something like what Rory's talking about could be implemented without replacing modified.

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Post by Allan » 30 Jun 2012 15:06

For a bit of nerdy context, the forum database is currently 391.6 megabytes of pure, unadulterated text. That's almost 410,000 posts in just over 17,000 topics. That's a lot of text, folks.

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Post by Allan » 13 Jul 2012 14:37

It's been a couple of weeks and even though someone voted against it, they didn't respond with any particular reason why, so I think I'm going to go ahead and do it. Yeah? I'm thinking Sunday at some point ...

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Post by Anz » 13 Jul 2012 14:50

Do it.

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Post by Muffinman » 13 Jul 2012 17:47

Sounds great, Allan.

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Post by worldbound » 14 Jul 2012 11:26

Dooo iiiit!
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Post by Allan » 17 Jul 2012 13:04

OK, so, obviously Sunday didn't happen. Sometime this week ...

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Re: The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

Post by Muffinman » 18 Jul 2012 17:55

Oh wow. This is so weird.
Thank you so much for doing this, Allan!

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Re: The Software That Runs Modified: Do We Upgrade?

Post by Allan » 18 Jul 2012 18:09

At this point, we do still have the option of rolling back to how things were. We would want to decide to do this as soon as possible, as we'd loose any new posts into this new installation.

My main concern at this point is what to do about registrations and spammers. I've somehow rigged it (somewhat unintentionally) so that I'm now getting the email for new user registrations. I find this unsettling, primarily because I've already gotten a dozen obvious spammers try to sign up. I'd like this to be managed by whomever managed it before, as there's no way I want to deal with things at this level. I don't want to be a moderator! The emails should be going to modified.in@gmail.com but I actually have no idea who gets that email. Can someone tell me that juicy bit of info please? Obviously I can try to just email it and see who answers too ...

My main point is that there seems to be a serious uptick in spam attempts from the moment I upgraded. I'm wondering if perhaps being on old software was actually stopping a lot of bot scripts that are being run looking for phpbb3 installs. Wouldn't that just be lame? Upgrade to the new software, get shut down by spammers? Can someone tell me what it was like before I did this? I've got all the "antispam" stuff turned on in the backend ...

This has already turned into waaaay more of a project than I was hoping it would be. I've blown, like, 6 hours since last night trying to make this happen, and I'm kind of burning out on it :( Boo!

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