Do you try to learn every concept?

Z · Post by Z » 08 Dec 2003 00:49

So, the other night I was working on gyro ill-usions, and it struck me that you don't see many people do it as opposed to gyro mirage. Got me thinking about how some concepts seem to be used more than others (mirage instead of illusion, butterfly instead of drifter, dlo instead of eggbeater, legover instead of pickup, etc.). So, I'd like to poll and see how many shredders are like myself and make it a point to learn and incorporate all of the main concepts (both sets and downtime components)? If you don't, post if you don't learn them all because it is a style choice, a difficulty choice, or whatever other reason you have for choosing to skip certain concepts and stress others.

Edit: D'oh, this probably should be in "Concepts"...any of the mods feel free to move it...

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 08 Dec 2003 02:42

I voted yes. When I started that was absolutely not so. I would learn a few basic moves like butterfly, mirage, etc., all of them only one my good side and move on to the moves I thought looked cool.

But for a while I started to school the basics again, both sides and I´m trying to learn all the basic moves, all the sets (well, okay, all that are in my reach, which means single dex sets), and most of the concepts.
There are some I don´t practice (yet), and I´m not sure whether I will for things like rooted or zoid for example.

I just think that it´ll help me later on, when I´m trying bigger moves, to have learned a lot of different concepts.....

Michael

Chris Holden · Post by **Chris Holden** » 08 Dec 2003 07:02

I'm trying. There are so many things that I want to learn, but neglect to skool. As far as learning all the elements, both sides, Kyle is one of the most balanced players I know, and it's tough to reply to his posts cause I can't stop laughing at his avatar.

Juan · Post by **Juan** » 10 Dec 2003 15:10

Yes! Great Avatar!! Kyle, is that the dude from Wet Hot American Summer? (BEST movie ever!)

Z wrote: Got me thinking about how some concepts seem to be used more than others (mirage instead of illusion, butterfly instead of drifter, dlo instead of eggbeater, legover instead of pickup, etc.).

Ive totally thought about this too! There seems to be shred trend in favor of Half Out-in Dex moves (legover, buterfly) and Full In-Out Dex moves (mirage, whirl, drifter, torque) VS. Full Out-In Dex moves (illusion, grifter, flux) and pickups)

in response to the ?- I am trying to learn every concept, but i find that i cant learn all at the same time. and with time, i will eventually learn most concepts.
i find that i must look at the structure of a concept, break it down, and master each component of that concept before i can master them in combinination.
For example, for pigbeater:
FIRST master Pixie, illusion, and Symple Legover.
THEN master Smudge, symple Magellan, and Eggbeater because they are all moves that fit in pigbeater just at lower levels.
THEN i can hit pigbeater.

This seems so logical, but i see so many newbs tryin big moves that they have no chance of hitting because of a missing foundation.

The concepts i suck at and would love to master are Double Dex Downtimers: eggbeater/dlo, barrage/terrage, 2x swichtover/pickup.
Plus Quantum Set and Stepping set.

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 10 Dec 2003 17:09

I'm trying too, but a lot of the time I don't encorporate a lot of what I'm capable of, wonton is a great example. It takes a lot of time and drilling (which I don't get remotely close to enough of) to have them all though.

Z · Post by Z » 14 Dec 2003 12:44

Yo Juan - Yeah, my avatar is Michael Showalter of Wet Hot American Summer fame. Have you seen the STELLA comedy shorts? Check them out at: http://www.stellacomedy.com/index.php

For example, for pigbeater:
FIRST master Pixie, illusion, and Symple Legover.
THEN master Smudge, symple Magellan, and Eggbeater because they are all moves that fit in pigbeater just at lower levels.
THEN i can hit pigbeater.

That's exactly how I think about larger moves as well!

It takes a lot of time and drilling

I think Loren hit the nail on the head right there. It just takes a loooong time to develop most concepts (especially sets...[cough]STEPPING![/cough]). So it definitely is hard to be working on every concept at once since there are a lot of them and they all take time to learn well. I think in that case maybe the poll should have been "Are you going to learn all concepts?"

Another thought on the subject: I think the initial concepts that you learn have a lot to do with the player(s) that you first kick with. I was brought up in the school of RED HUSTED, so I learned spinning, ducking, whirls, pixie and stepping first. I'm sure if I had learned from a different BAP player, my style would have evolved differently and I would've stressed different concepts as the most important. Just a thought...

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 27 Dec 2003 17:37

Actually thats a good point about style being influenced by who you play with. I remember when Matt Emmings from victoria came down to mtl for a few weeks and it was sooooooo obvious that he kicked with Allan. Smooth

I find myself often doing the same motions at Sebastien D. because he is the bap player i kick with the most. I do not have the same style as him at all, but i DEFINETLY have influences from him, for example the way both our feet "twist" on dlos and eggbeaters. I know my legover are also a perfect likeness of his.

Vasek learned from Ryan, or studied from him alot, and it shows alot, especially on his older videos, when he had been playing ~1.5 years. I guess the reason Honza and Ales are so different is because they studied from each other, and had nothing to base all their moves on. Not a bad thing, just different.

Related to this, often i'll find in tournaments new players who seem intimidated by circles with better players in them and only play with people their level, and i think its a terrible thing to do. The way to get better style and control is by shredding with people who are better then you.

Z · Post by Z » 28 Dec 2003 01:29

Related to this, often i'll find in tournaments new players who seem intimidated by circles with better players in them and only play with people their level, and i think its a terrible thing to do. The way to get better style and control is by shredding with people who are better then you.

I agree 100%. I was recently lucky enough to kick in a circle with Sunil and have since changed my atomic set to leggy because physically my legs are very similar to his. Around here everybody does hippy (except Rippin', I think he does both), so once I stepped in and played with Sunil it really opened my mind more to the way he does things in relation to how I do them. That's why I think it's great that there are so many great BAP level players with unique styles to the extent that you can learn different concepts from watching different shredders.

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 28 Dec 2003 01:44

i am deffinatly pulling my style from Erik Chan and Derek Vandall. some moves i do very much like derek, some i do very much like erik. it's interesting how people are so influenced by who they play with, or watch on video.

Jas · Post by **Jas** » 07 Jul 2004 23:01

yeh im trying to learn all the concepts to become very good tiltless kicker so i can have a nice evened out style. I dont think i'll be able to go tiltless if i dont do most/all concepts before it.

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 12 Jul 2004 22:01

im trying to cover most concepts, but some stuff i wont bother with for a long time eg.swirling moves, osis moves.... they are too advanced/physically hard for me

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 13 Jul 2004 02:54

I want to be able to do everything - including the footbag.com moves

but I don't work on everything at once - I focus on particular moves and work on getting them solid before moving on. So there are plenty of things I'm not working on and won't try for a while, but eventually I'll get on to them.

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 13 Jul 2004 06:09

Buhleted.

kaos · Post by **kaos** » 13 Jul 2004 06:12

Edited because previous post was edited...

ashleyd · Post by **ashleyd** » 14 Jul 2004 14:52

every time i try atomic i dont come close. i can illusion. atomic really isnt something i want to learn right now. but i bet later ill try.

pips · Post by **pips** » 15 Jul 2004 07:19

I put yes as in I will try them all when I get there and hope I will have them all down someday. I am still kinda building my foundation. I think.