BAP - detrimental?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 28 Jan 2003 22:36

I was wondering what other people's view of BAP are. I guess Lon Smith's views are pretty famous and I tend to agree with him. I know BAP was one of the big turning points in freestyle but I now see it as outdated and detrimental. I think of it a bit like the autocratic Russia of the early 1900s.

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 28 Jan 2003 22:48

I feel it gives a high standard to push for, to be BAP is to be truly good, and I want to be good.

I would like to hear in detail what Lon's veiws are exactly though.

calex · Post by **calex** » 28 Jan 2003 23:03

How famous are Lon's views? I have never heard of any of his views on BAP. Care to enlighten?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » 28 Jan 2003 23:38

BAP is great, it's something for aspiring players to push for. But now we live in a society where it doesnt mean what it used to. I mean lots of great players aren't in BAP, Ken Somolinos, James Risden, Jason Crook. Some of my FAVORITES but they aren't in BAP, does that mean they aren't worth listening to or worth seeing? F*ck no!

In short, BAP is a good thing, but it's not the only thing..catch my drift(er)

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 29 Jan 2003 00:30

like adds

HackyRichard · Post by **HackyRichard** » 29 Jan 2003 02:24

Um just throwing this into the mix, has anyone ever turned down BAP membership? (sorry couldn't think of a better word)

HackyRichard

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Jan 2003 03:02

You can't turn down BAP membership as it stands. Lon Smith was inducted into BAP but does not recognise himself as a member. I wouldn't want to speak his views for him for fear of misrepresentation but this is how I feel about it.

BAP created modern freestyle. Kenny Shults, Rippin Rick and a couple of other people were unhappy with the way freestyle footbag was judged and decided to form their own break away kind of group where the aim was to pull off long runs of guiltless moves.

However I now feel that having an elite group of footbaggers who are *officially* better then everybody else is hurting footbag and should be removed. I can't think of any sport that has such an elitist order as footbag.

I think the fact that so few BAPers post on this forum is a symptom of the elitism that has infected the top players. Don't get me wrong, I know most of them do a huge amount of work to get to the top and do a lot for footbag, but that's them personally, not what BAP does for footbag.

Do you need the goal of making BAP to inspire you into keeping on playing? I would continue to play footbag no matter how skilled I was in comparison to the rest of the world. We should play for the love of the sport not the glory.

[/steps back off soap box]

HackyRichard · Post by **HackyRichard** » 29 Jan 2003 04:11

Jeremy wrote:BAP created modern freestyle. Kenny Shults, Rippin Rick and a couple of other people were unhappy with the way freestyle footbag was judged and decided to form their own break away kind of group where the aim was to pull off long runs of guiltless moves.

However I now feel that having an elite group of footbaggers who are *officially* better then everybody else is hurting footbag and should be removed. I can't think of any sport that has such an elitist order as footbag.

I think the fact that so few BAPers post on this forum is a symptom of the elitism that has infected the top players. Don't get me wrong, I know most of them do a huge amount of work to get to the top and do a lot for footbag, but that's them personally, not what BAP does for footbag.

First thing, I wouldn't say that BAP created so much as guided or focused modern freestyle to the point it is at today. Imagine if the envelope hadn't been pushed, we'd probably all be doing fluffy stuff like footbag dance (blowchi or whatever the hell you call it), and I for one am very thankful for that.

Next, who said that it was about being *officially* better than everyone else, I've always understood it was about recognition for innovation, dedication and pushing the limits of freestyle. That's not elitist, that's simply giving credit where credit is due. There are loads of examples of sports that have elitist orders, which are far more hurtful than BAP, off the top of my head the US PGA is a good example of this, they have tournaments where only players within the top X can compete, if you're outside that X it's tough shit. Where as anyone can compete with the BAPsters at any footbag comp, and foot it with them (e.g Vasik at last years worlds, he wasn't BAP until after the event).
If anything BAP is there to inspire footbaggers and show them what can be a achieved if you are prepared to put in the appropriate amount of groundwork, if you like they are a positive role model, do you think young swimmers look at Ian Thorpe and think "he's better than me I'll never be that good, I'm going to give up it's not possible, it's too much hard work"? Same thing with Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. If you're looking at BAP as being elitist, maybe you've missed the point entirely, it's not about "look at me I'm far superior to you" it's more like "here's what can be done, do you have what it takes to get to here?"

And on the subject of there not being may BAPsters posting, just because someone doesn't post on this or any other online discussion medium doesn't imply elitism, hell Lynton doesn't spend much time on the internet (according to Brendan) does this make him elitist? Remember not everyone is into the whole online thing, some people don't have the time(work and various other committments like shredding and family stuff), and some people are more face to face people - different strokes for different folks.

Oh and if the people in BAP are out doing things like doing demos promoting footbag, training etc is that not BAP doing something for footbag, after all BAP is a collection of people, normal everyday people like anyone else, not this faceless giant that some people seem to be making it out to be.

Oh and I'm sure everyone in BAP plays for the love of the game, because if it were all about the glory (and money etc) then many would have packed it in by now.

In short BAP is good, gives people something to shoot for ... if you're that way inclined of course

HackyRichard

Zerbalicious · Post by **Zerbalicious** » 29 Jan 2003 08:37

Well HackyRichard, I hate to burst your bubble, but BAP is elitest. Or at least some members are and I have discussed this subject with some of those members.
However there are members of BAP that are not elitest and they tend not to associate themselves with the BAP as much.
I personally am not a fan of elitism in footbag, I think that it's worse than self-serving. But I do understand the desire of top-level players to want to play with other people who push themselves and the envelope.

I personally think that BAP can't keep up with how fast the sport is growing. There are gobs of non-bap players that are better than bap players. I think we're at a point were everybody knows who is at the top. It is nice for those people that get the recognition of BAP but that doesn't mean we should recognize all the other great players.
I personally would like to give props to Adam Keith, that kid shreds phat. I don't know why he didn't make posse this year.

Oh yeah, and right on Jeremy.

HackyRichard · Post by **HackyRichard** » 29 Jan 2003 10:36

Zerbalicious wrote:Well HackyRichard, I hate to burst your bubble, but BAP is elitest. Or at least some members are and I have discussed this subject with some of those members.
However there are members of BAP that are not elitest and they tend not to associate themselves with the BAP as much.
I personally am not a fan of elitism in footbag, I think that it's worse than self-serving. But I do understand the desire of top-level players to want to play with other people who push themselves and the envelope.

You've just gone and shot yourself, you're always going to have people with that elitist attitude whether they are BAP or not, that is a personal character fault not a fault with BAP itself, well maybe it is BAPs fault for not checking on these character faults before inducting them.

I definitely agree that elitism sucks, and goes against the whole general vibe behind the whole concept of freestyle, this needs to be stamped out more than self-serving (both are just as bad as each other).

That's a given, there are always going to be people of similar or superior ability to a given group, like I said I look upon BAP as being more like a role model or a target/goal of some sort. Not to get into the group but to get to and beyond that level, shit I'd say most of the canadian guys on this forum are at or above BAP *level*, and there is a quite a number of people in my corner of the world that are at that similar level too, where did this whole "so and so is in BAP they rule, such and such isn't in BAP they suck" attitude come from, that again sounds like a personal attitude with people in general not a problem specific to BAP. I can recognise skill when I see it and will acknowledge it as and when appropriate. But if you're only in the game only to get the glory then get the fuck out, that is part of the elitist attitude that you seem to be referring to and this definitely needs to be squashed asap.
Does it matter if someone is or isn't in BAP, does this title diminish or add to their abilities as a shredder? Um no, it is giving them recognition for pushing themselves and the sport, it is not saying you are now better than everyone else go forth and be an elitist asshole, if this happens to people when they are accepted then, again as I've stated this is personal character fault,

I've gotta go to work now, I look forward to more intelligent debate when I return ....

HackyRichard

Hacky_Slacker · Post by **Hacky_Slacker** » 29 Jan 2003 10:53

there are alot of good points flying around in here. i think we are all wrong and we are all right. its prefrence really, to stive for or not, to try to be better than someone eles or just be.
Perception Determine Reality. What you precieve as being true it is, and vise versa. Why fight a system thats been around longer than most have been playing. just go with it and enjoy the ride. because it WILL end one day, and then it'll all be for not. just relax and have fun. thats the important part.

by the way, i voted yes.

Late

and why do they call it "pushing the ENVELOPE"? thats bizzare, no?

brad n · Post by **brad n** » 29 Jan 2003 12:23

i used to want to make BAP. i really pushed myself for a while, but it's not so important anymore. i think the sport needs it to push new players. it's why i played so hard at first. i wanted to be one of the best. sure, there are some really good players like Risden that aren't in BAP yet, buuuut they didn't show up for worlds, did they?

i think a lot of BAP members don't post here because the topics are fairly boring to them. how many times can you actually argue about paradox before you don't give a shit anymore? i've only been playing for a little over 2 years and i couldn't care less about how many adds a pdx blur should get or what an x-dex really is. chances are, they have already touched upon almost every footbag related topic.

oh yeah Zerbe, Adam Keith is awesome. did he even get mentioned?

Lexiticus · Post by **Lexiticus** » 29 Jan 2003 13:30

They should make BAP something like belts
When you are good enough (Easier than what the requirements are now)
you get into BAP, But then you really start to get graded or whatever

There should be Levels of BAP, sorda like Karate after Black Belt
You won't use the same terms but you start as 10th Kyo, to 1st Kyo, then 1st Dan and up to 10th or beyond

Now Im not sure how or what the requirements are to improve, Karate you are graded by higher belts, So maybe 2 steps above you or something, Who knows the fact that its soo spread out would hinder that a little, so some people would remain unrecognized, and the fact that you improve alot would also screw up the rankings (so maybe use less so the step ups take longer to achieve)

OF course there are problems with this method aswell, but just having BAP and non-BAP doesn't seem like an ideal system to me.

CICFreestyler 17 · Post by **CICFreestyler 17** » 29 Jan 2003 13:44

I totally agree with everything Brad said

P
CIC

madshred2003 · Post by **madshred2003** » 29 Jan 2003 14:59

i think it's unfortunate that you can only be BAPed at worlds or major events. there are many people that are amazing players but probably can't make it out to the big events.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 29 Jan 2003 15:11

holy crap thats a lot of words. i didnt read any of it. but ive heard jubal is against bap.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Jan 2003 15:19

When I started playing, it was well over a year before I ever met another freestyler. Then, as soon as I got to play with some of the top Aussie guns (Lynton would make BAP for sure) I improved immensly. Playing with people who are better then you always improves your game. That's why I always play with newbies and never turn down shreds with people who are less experienced then me. Yet here we have the BAP, a number of which will only play with other BAPers (or people of BAP quality). How do the expect the rest of us to improve? Do they want everybody in the world to be good at footbag, or do they want to continue to be the top players?
Now I know they have no obligation to help newer players, but I bet many of them got helping hands from better players when they were learning.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 29 Jan 2003 16:32

BAP really didn't start out with any intent to be what it has turned into. It was really just a small group of freestylers that shared an approach to freestyle that, at the time, was not really rewarded in tournament freestyle competition. It was simply a "band of brothers" that recognized each others skills outside the recognition of tournament results. There would have never been an induction of any new member to BAP if there hadn't been so many players that wanted to be in it. They would ask what the requirements were and how they could get in. It was actually quite a few years after the creation of BAP before the first induction of any new players. I knew then that we had accidentally created a monster. Kids were even sending me video tape auditions to try to get into BAP. I think on the whole that BAP has probably been a good thing for the growth of the sport, mainly because most players in BAP are cool people and are more than willing to share with new players. I do agree that the sport may have grown to the point now that it just isn't feasible to recognize all of the players that are truly worthy of BAP status. There was a time, not that long ago, that I knew every player in the world that could do a Blur and I could count them on one hand. You would need a lot of hands today. And for any BAP out there with an elitist attitude, I suggest you pay a visit to the Czech Footbag site for a hefty dose of humility.

Kenny Shults

Hacky_Slacker · Post by **Hacky_Slacker** » 29 Jan 2003 19:07

A holy tablet hast just been laid apon thine eyes

madshred2003 · Post by **madshred2003** » 29 Jan 2003 19:53

word

BAP - detrimental?

Do you believe BAP is still good for footbag?

BAP - detrimental?