Intermediates at major competitions

BenRea · Post by **BenRea** » 31 Jul 2008 10:09

In rowing there is a novice world champion, Novice champ for US nationals too. It makes plenty of sense.

And intermediates should be given the chance to win.

Eric Chang · Post by **Eric Chang** » 31 Jul 2008 10:23

I hope people now see that post that I took the time to post. CURSE YOU BEN!!

By the way I have found more US Intermediate Championships if you want I can post more, but I think I've made my point

Post by **Zac Miley** » 31 Jul 2008 10:37

I don't think the problem is the division between intermediate, but rather that we don't really have a professional division, since anybody can compete in the highest category. I think that creates an air of unprofessionalism. Most sports require a much larger entry fee than worlds did this year ($169 and we still complained

).

Perhaps if the intermediate division was done with, and in place created the professional division, where only the top tier open players of today can go. Say, 10 or so competitors. The rest of the people would be in 'Open".

MatS21 · Post by **MatS21** » 31 Jul 2008 10:51

Maybe something like 12 competitors plus the 4 top open players. I think that could work well plus give the chance to players to qualify. Kinda eliminate the ''best of the worst'' tag.

SnowBlindSloth · Post by **SnowBlindSloth** » 31 Jul 2008 11:18

I know from my experience that competing in Open is really scary...at my first tourny I was so scared and played like poop. Intermediate comps also allow intermediate players to advance past the first round, something much rarer if intermediate was to be eliminated.

Dimwalk Swirl and stuff is not an intermediate trick. Its pretty pro. I've hit dimwalk once and have placed 4th in an intermediate competition. I think the big issue is determining what is intermediate and open. I feel genuine guiltless is a good line to use. If you can pull out some consistent, semi-genuine guiltless runs then you should compete open. Also, any guiltless player also has at least a few 4s and 5s in their arsenal, so they should be able to bust those out midstring.

Still, Sick 1 and Sick 3 are not the best ways to determine skill, saying "Oh, he's open because he can hit dimwalk swirl" is not very accurate ...I've hit stampede, frontside atom smasher and atomic DaDa curve before my butterfly > butterfly record exceeded 5. Like, call my learning curve screwed or something, but there are many many players out there like me.

Overall, I feel that intermediate is a good thing to have and, rather than think of eliminating it completely, either have Jeremy's idea of a 30 second qualification or just have everybody give dirty looks to those who are competing in intermediate and should be open. Peer pressure.

+ Have you seen Jordan Moire in his competing shirt? Check out the T.O Jam video...its intense. He's a great guy, but when his competing shirt is on I feel like he could eat me...same with Erik Chan, he's such a nice guy, but he looks soooooooooo hardcore when he shreds in knee bracers...give us lowly guilters a chance to compete against people whose legs move at visible speeds....

Rieferman · Post by **Rieferman** » 31 Jul 2008 12:38

At small events, I don't think it matters what the event organizer chooses to do. There are pros and cons to all the models, and none of it really matters ultimately.

At premier events, even most of the open players aren't really crowd-worthy in their performances (sorry, but really... watch every competitor, and there's only a small group [aka the group that makes finals] that are worth watching for the average non-player). Nothing is worse - from a "this is a big event showcasing our top talent" perspective - than watching a bad footbag performance. Kill the lower levels.

Besides, of all the players out there that have played intermediate, how many of them evolve out of that to actually become perennial competitors at the open level of major events? Not many. Most move to sideline shred pretty quickly when they realize the jump from newbie to decent intermediate is much easier to make than jumping from decent intermediate to top level pro. (edit: not that top pros didn't once play intermediate.. but my point is, that those top pros would have gotten there anyways.. the drop out rate is much higher than the success rate)

So, let people have their intermediate fun at small events, save the large events for showcasing the best of the best. And with all the extra time you'll have, shred it up.

Eric Chang · Post by **Eric Chang** » 31 Jul 2008 13:10

Rieferman wrote:At premier events, even most of the open players aren't really crowd-worthy in their performances

-Says you? I actually enjoy to watch what people come up with and how they do it. Its stupid to compare everyone to top top tier players. There are so many other good players out there who are just as fun to watch.

Rieferman wrote:Nothing is worse - from a "this is a big event showcasing our top talent" perspective - than watching a bad footbag performance. Kill the lower levels.

-Um this is the World Championship, meaning its the World Championship for both Intermediate and Open.

Rieferman wrote:Besides, of all the players out there that have played intermediate, how many of them evolve out of that to actually become perennial competitors at the open level of major events?

-Alright so far lets just do the Stanford Footbag Club. So far the intermediates who have moved onto Open are:
-Dustin Rhodes
-Abram Santana
-Peter Holoien

Here is the list of current Stanford I currently in their last year of intermediate
-Eric Chang
-Alex Dworetzky
-Juff Mudd

Kyle Hewitt moved on to be a great freestyler! DARE I say David Clavens!? Not to mention Dustin Rhodes is a very strong player. (I can research more and go on if you really want) But really do either of us know the TRUE ratio of Intermediate to Open players? I say give it time, and we'll see Intermediate Competitions still is a new format in our sport.

What is the best of the best? I mean from what you're saying only ten of the routines are fun to watch right? Well why should we have to go through all that bullshit anyways? Why not just say sorry people but sod off, the rest of you suck to much to compete?

Here its their event, and if they want to run an Intermediate competition, they have every right too no matter what. I will continue to film and support every player out there, you on the other hand can go do whatever it is you please.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jul 2008 16:22

Sure, but that's not relevant. How can you say that those players would not be at the same level as now if they competed in open at serious events instead of intermediate? That's complete speculation; it's not a factual claim.

Again, like with "junior" and "amateur" - "novice" in rowing has a very clear definition (somebody in their first year of competition).

In footbag there is no set guideline for who can compete in intermediate, and yet there is a label and prize for "Intermediate World Champion." What does that title mean?

At the very least, there should be a clear definition of who can compete in intermediate; either an external selection (ie. not people choosing to compete in that level) or some clear guidelines about age or competition experience etc. So that you can say that the Intermediate champion is the best player out of all the players who have never competed at an IFPA event - or something along those lines.

Given the nature of footbag, there is very little difference which division you compete in - you're still judged in the same way and have to do the same performance. "Intermediate" and "Open" are just arbitrary lines separating people doing the same thing.

jay7 · Post by **jay7** » 31 Jul 2008 18:17

It seems to be a very common issue with me, before this worlds in particular (where, I decided to compete open) that people always ask "well, did you have to qualify or something?" and, to seem professional, I just lie and say that since I placed well in Canadian tournaments that I qualified.

I personally think some sort of qualification is absolutely necessary,

I also agree that big tricks don't determine where you are in footbag.

Rieferman · Post by **Rieferman** » 31 Jul 2008 19:09

acommoncold, I'm not picking a fight, so please read me properly, and quote me properly.

You quoted my statement:

At premier events, even most of the open players aren't really crowd-worthy in their performances

but you conveniently ignored the rest of the statement which is:

(sorry, but really... watch every competitor, and there's only a small group [aka the group that makes finals] that are worth watching for the average non-player).

I happen to agree that performances of all types can be enjoyable. But FOR THE AVERAGE NON-PLAYER AT AN EVENT THAT SEEMS TO BE AIMING FOR SPECTATOR APPRECIATION TO SOME DEGREE let's face it... routines with less than pro choreography and 5 drops isn't nearly as cool as Vasek going dropless. As nice as you want to be, that's just true. I know because I've run a bunch of big events and attended quite a few more... and if you talk to any non-player, this is what you'll hear. In fact, many of the players aren't all that interested in watching bad performances. It's not mean, it's just the way it is.

Um this is the World Championship, meaning its the World Championship for both Intermediate and Open.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh Kayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy... Ummmmmmmmmm Thanks for breaking that down for me. My point is that the intermediate portion is pointless at WORLDS. Ok for smaller events, but IN MY OPINION not worth it at this SHOWCASE for champion/potential champion competitors. We can agree to disagree, but my whole point is that worlds is about smething different than small events. side note, my o key is giving me issues.

Also, thanks for the list of intermediate players that are playing open now. I guess this statement didn't make it clear enough:

not that top pros didn't once play intermediate.. but my point is, that those top pros would have gotten there anyways.. the drop out rate is much higher than the success rate

Do you really want me to generate a list of people that have WON intermediate competitions that weren't up to the task of competing open? I don't have time to do it, but c'mon now.

Ha ha, I'm bitchy tonight. Sorry.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 31 Jul 2008 19:33

Intermediate competition makes sense only in the right circumstances. As of now the only factor that determines if a player is intermediate or not is their skill level. This presents a problem because there seems to be a lot 'perpetually intermediate' players out there that although experienced, don't progress to a point where they will compete open. Thus, the 'best of the worst' title.

If, however, intermediate was based on playing experience, and to a lesser extent competition experience, all of a sudden the intermediate competition has some merit (no longer acting as a play date for non-serious/skilled players, it would be a stepping stone to the real competition). The intermediate champion all of a sudden is a guy to keep your eye on in the open competition, and not someone that just happens to be the best of the worst). I guess that sounds sort of harsh, and of course is kind of a generalization (for example david clavens would be an exception).

It's like we (as footbaggers) need to suck it up and realize that not everyone is cut out for competition. I feel that competition is a privilege, and if only the people who are bent on progression get the opportunity to compete, then so be it. I can't help but feel that the intermediate competition is just an event held to keep things kosher, and make sure everyone is involved and gets a chance to play. Maybe that is good and all, and makes people happy, but is it was is best for the sport? If competion was only open to serious players instead of people who really don't care about competing then competion in general would be much more serious and not just another chance to kick around a hack with some friends. Open level competitors would he held in higher regard and people would strive that much more to become competitive.

Outside of competition I have no problem with 'intermediate level competitors', they are no less a footbagger than anyone else. But if you are going to be a competitor, then compete, and compete against the best. Enough half-assed, -I guuuess I'll compete- attitude. Go big or go home?

For footbag to be taken more seriously I feel that qualifications are necessary. With the growth of footbag events this is definitely becoming a possibility.

At the same time however it presents some problems because for qualifications to work on a large scale (ie. Worlds) there would have to be a lot of smaller-scaled changes. Each country would have to have a governing body, and maybe even regional competitions (depending on population?). What determines how many people make it from each country? Will this also change with country population? There are so many questions that are raised.

What is the point of intermediate competition at the world footbag championships?

A lot of this probably either a) makes no sense, or b) came out different than I intended. I hope some of it was coherent enough to get someone thinking to form new answers as well as new questions.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 31 Jul 2008 19:58

I suppose I should have read the entire thread before I posted, I repeated a bunch of stuff. I think some of my post is still valid anyway.

I have a solution for the problem that is intermediate competition. Just replace the word intermediate with 'practice', and voila! If you want to sandbag and place first in the practice division, then who cares? It's practice, and it shouldn't matter what you place because you get just as much out of the experience.

Maybe there should be another organization like BAP(ahah is bap an organization?!), with inductions and stuff, and the people that are inducted are allowed to compete, inductions could be held at any event with other members in attendance. Essentially BAP, only with a purpose.

LEGOMAN · Post by **LEGOMAN** » 31 Jul 2008 21:09

acommoncold wrote:Kyle Hewitt moved on to be a great freestyler!

thanks

pips · Post by **pips** » 01 Aug 2008 05:40

Okay. I read this thread pretty quickly. I think I got most of the points. I liked Ken's post. And I disagreed with or looked down on Reiferman's first post, but when he broke it down, I agreed. I see points that major competitions are better seeing "the best of the best," but I don't think that intermediate should be taken away. I don't know who to call intermediate or who to call open, like where to cross the line, but would open competition be as successful or whatever without some lower level competition? I don't see very many people comfortably competing at open right off the bat. There's got to be some kind of lower level competition to give some people more courage or confidence and a chance to move up. And how would we officially know who's getting awesome enough to compete in open? Sure we can see progress in sideline shred, but I think competition is more official or whatever. If we want to show the best of the best at major competitions, well...spectators should know that and probably do wait for open finals to see a good show, but intermediate should still happen. And like Ken said, it helps keep tournaments running.

So that's my major thoughts. I hope I didn't pass anything important up or misunderstand anything.

Oh, and how about the intercontinental champion in wrestling??? Haha. That's the first thing I thought of when trying to think of other sports who have lower level championships. I don't really know what intercontinental really means, but that's what I always thought about it.

EDIT: And I wouldn't use sick 1 or 3 to classify what level of shred a person is at. I can hit paradox whirl, but I have just now only built my foundation up. Like others said, someone can work on tricks harder than easily adding them to his or her normal shred. Doesn't mean he or she is any better.

EDIT AGAIN

: And who cares if it is junior or amateur or whatever other kind of competition before the ultimate championship? They are all still some kind of lower level competition. I guess we don't see junior championships at an open golf championship, but I think our sport is small enough to add both to most tournaments. Just think...Worlds would only have to be like a weekend long instead a cool week long if we only did open. I dunno.

JoshC. · Post by **JoshC.** » 01 Aug 2008 06:27

Heres how it is with speedskating, which I think we could apply some of the ideas to footbag. Itâ€™s broken down into age groups. At local competitions, the ones that donâ€™t count for anything, the age groups are used, but they are lenient about moving around in them. If you are new to the sport, there is a novice division as well. When you start the sport you are aloud to be in the novice division for one year. After that, you move into your age group. At nationals you also compete in your age group, or you qualify for the â€œprofessionalâ€

Chase · Post by **Chase** » 01 Aug 2008 10:20

Shred 30...

Why not use an event like shred 30 as a qualifying round. It's an event that doesn't require judging, and can clearly separate skill level.

I know everyone and their cousin in this thread has supported a 30 second qualifying round, but it's not like we need to invent anything here, we already do it...

You wouldn't have to be placed in intermediate, (there are many perpetually intermediate players that compete to have fun, not to win titles) but you would have to perform to a certain level before you could compete open. This could also pull out a few sandbaggers, without it being up to some panels discretion...

I have never competed, this past US Open was my first tournament. Were I to compete now I would clearly be intermediate. However, with my current rate of progression, by the next US Open i feel like I will probably be at that "sandbagger" stage were I to compete intermediate. Should my first time competing at a real tourney be intermediate, even if there is a distinct separation between myself and the other intermediates?

Maybe with a formula to determine what level of competition you should be at, those that are considered "sandbaggers" would legitimately be intermediate champions... As the sport grows there will be more and more in my position. I would love for the decision to be out of my hands...

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 01 Aug 2008 15:26

Random thought: What if instead of Open and Intermediates, they were renamed Invitational and Open, respectfully?

Everyone kicks the couple days before anything actually happens anyways, and it would give a chance for the organizers to be able to place people in the proper category.

Maybe the top 3 of Open would get the rights to be in the invitational part of the competition the next year as well?

Hmm...

BenRea · Post by **BenRea** » 02 Aug 2008 06:14

Speedskater person:

The only thing I have against that theory is that a lot of the time age has nothing to do with skill in footbag.

JoshC. · Post by **JoshC.** » 02 Aug 2008 11:28

I realize that, but their are flaws in all of the systems. Its like that in every sport. Just my opinion. My names Josh by the way.

AB · Post by AB » 11 Aug 2008 09:43

So I've been putting off signing up for this forum for quite some time. But since this topic is indirectly about me, I guess I should let everyone know what my deal is. My name is Alex Bernstein, I'm 22, and I live in Portland with Red and Nick Landes. Come December i'll have been playing freestyle footbag for 2 years. The US open was my first real competition, I think competing in intermediate was a very useful tool to show me how a major footbag competition works. I honestly don't think that I was ready to compete in open, yeah I can snap off montage but thats just a result of the way I've learned how to play footbag up until now (I skipped a lot of the toe game, but its getting there). I was very lucky to meet the people that I did when I moved to Portland, I realize that not everyone has constant access to talented players with good advice. My first year and half playing footbag I just played for fun, I usually make it to the 2 sessions a week that we have here. Other than that I never really spent time "schooling" or practicing on my own. I spend most of my free time singing and playing the piano. I'm not sure how long its gonna be before I compete again but I do not plan on competing in the intermediate category again. I really enjoy this sport and meeting the interesting people involved in it. Sooo yeah, I'm not sure if I have a point or anything, just wanted you's guys to see things from my end, thats all. stay positive!!!