Worlds Updates

Ners · Post by **Ners** » 20 Aug 2007 07:45

I understand that counting Shred30 is hard, I've done it many times in difficult conditions and I've made mistakes as well. But still if the official rules state that the time starts at the first add, then it should be this way. I don't want to sound like an ass, but it's World Footbag Championships and I feel that the scores should be correct and the players should know how the correct placings looked like.

Pozdrawiam
Szymon KaÅ‚wak (Ners)

acxel22 · Post by **acxel22** » 20 Aug 2007 08:41

Szymon, it's quite simple, from the players booklet from worlds:

The scoring starts when a player hits/tries to hit his first visible move (basically first 3 add move or higher). For example toe->clip->ripwalk, where ripwalk is the first visible move and toe->clip are preparing moves. If a player drops a preparing move, it is counted as a drop and time starts from there.

I hope this is clear for you now.

ville · Post by **ville** » 20 Aug 2007 09:59

acxel22 wrote: People had to count this in the late evenings and had to miss partys. I suggest you guys count all of them next year and miss all the fun

Been there, done that

Eventually you get so tired that the counting becomes funny, somehow

Ners · Post by **Ners** » 20 Aug 2007 11:24

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Mathieu, I didn't read the booklet. Still, Vasek's Tomahawk was after time

Pozdrawiam
Szymon KaÅ‚wak (Ners)

acxel22 · Post by **acxel22** » 20 Aug 2007 13:05

Ok this is my last post arguing with you:
The tomahawk is good since the bag was set before the time was over.
If the bag was set after 30.00 seconds, then tomahawk wouldnt count, but it counts since it was before.

Ners · Post by **Ners** » 20 Aug 2007 13:26

I'm not arguing with you, so please don't get angry. I think it's an important issue. Maybe I read the time wrong but for me in the set for Tomahawk is after time. But I think I know where the difference comes from. The set (for the Tomahawk) happens in the end of 39th second, just a split second (lol) before the 40th. The first contact of the shred (clipper) happens in the beggining of the 9th second. I agree that it's a really small difference, but it's a difference. I guess would have to measure the time with a better device

Pozdrawiam
Szymon KaÅ‚wak (Ners)

Faco · Post by **Faco** » 20 Aug 2007 13:55

This is a productive conversation...I think we should all start thinking about some upgrades to the footbag judging system.

The sport is growing, maybe time to get [more] professional?

Matt K · Post by **Matt K** » 20 Aug 2007 18:34

I agree that the Tomahawk wasn't set in time.

From what I can tell, Vasek attempts his first move (Food Processer) at 9.73 seconds. On the Tomahawk, the bag doesn't leave his foot until about 39.93 seconds, making it 1/5 of a second late.

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 20 Aug 2007 20:27

I've always thought it would by nice to have a starting trick that everyone has to do.

Everyone should have to start from a toe stall on the count of 1 2 3 go and then time would start right on the word go.

Time would go down to the nearest 10th of a second.

X Dex and unique butterflies should count.

No music should be going.

What about half drops??? They don't count as anything except lost time.

Something like that would be a convenient help for judges.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 21 Aug 2007 05:09

unique butterflies should definitely not count!! Do you really want to see people doing 8 butterflies in their shred 30s?

The Tomahawk is definitely within the time. The time doesn't start until the first move is completed; so it starts when the food finishes, not when the food starts. This is because some people go toe>clipper>move and other people go toe>butterfly or toe>pixie move; and if you don't know what the first move is, you can't start the time on the first move unless they go toe>clipper move.

Also are you guys talking about the semi final shred 30s? Because I read (in this topic) that Jorden and Vasek both dropped in their finals shred 30s. Is that wrong?

acxel22 · Post by **acxel22** » 21 Aug 2007 05:26

They are talking about semi finals, in finals everyone dropped.

Ners · Post by **Ners** » 21 Aug 2007 07:12

There is nothing about it in the official rules, but I think the rule was that the scoring starts when the first guiltless trick is completed (thus allowing for the preparation moves, like toe > clip, or just clip), but the time starts with the first adds, so if a player kicks the bag and then goes toe > clip the time will start on the toe. The toe would not be counted if the bag was placed on it with the hand, in this case the time would start on the clipper. That's how I always counted time in Shred30. Maybe there was some more info about when the time starts in the players booklet for Worlds.

Pozdrawiam
Szymon KaÅ‚wak (Ners)

Zeb Jackson · Post by **Zeb Jackson** » 21 Aug 2007 08:16

there was a giant paragraph, i think im going to take a picture of it or something so we can get on with our lives

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 21 Aug 2007 18:37

Yeah sorry, I thought that it was in the rules, but it's not. My proposed updated rules, that have still not been discussed by the IFC was that the time would start at the completion of the first 3 add move or above. This is because is you place the bag on your toe, and then do a butterfly as your first move, when does the time start? When you perform the dex? When you perform the delay?

The reason it's the first 3 point move is because otherwise there is an obvious advantage with starting with a toe move (because you can place the bag on your toe (not scoring an add) and then play - as opposed to setting to your clipper and the time starts).

There's more I wanted to say, but I'm late for work and will try to remember to comment tonight.

Mathochist · Post by **Mathochist** » 22 Aug 2007 12:28

Worlds Pics

Matt K · Post by **Matt K** » 22 Aug 2007 12:49

Jorden looks really creepy in #82.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Aug 2007 07:09

Sorry to keep this topic going.

If Vasek's shred 30 is timed from the when he completes the first Food, then not only does the tomahawk count, but the MC's count down is exactly right. I would guess that those are the rules they were using.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 24 Aug 2007 08:31

Ners wrote:There is nothing about it in the official rules, but I think the rule was that the scoring starts when the first guiltless trick is completed (thus allowing for the preparation moves, like toe > clip, or just clip), but the time starts with the first adds, so if a player kicks the bag and then goes toe > clip the time will start on the toe. The toe would not be counted if the bag was placed on it with the hand, in this case the time would start on the clipper. That's how I always counted time in Shred30. Maybe there was some more info about when the time starts in the players booklet for Worlds.

Jeremy wrote:If Vasek's shred 30 is timed from the when he completes the first Food, then not only does the tomahawk count, but the MC's count down is exactly right. I would guess that those are the rules they were using.

I think that they were starting the timer on completion of the first Guiltless Trick. I think that they had written this down on a small poster at the event.

I am familiar with the rules that Ners spoke of, and I had thought that those were the agreed-upon shred scoring/timing rules, but it seems as though the people running shred at Worlds this year disregarded them.

In general, I prefer the rules that Ners uses, as there is a slight penalty for starting with a guilt and/or tilt. That is, those One-and-Two-ADD tricks won't count against your difficulty ratio, but you will lose a little bit of time by using them, as opposed to a player to takes a somewhat greater risk by kicking directly to a guiltless trick. Even starting with the hand-placement on a toe and starting off with a Dimwalk seems somewhat more difficult and risky to me than starting with "kick > kick > kick > Toe Stall > Clipper Stall > Shred" because that Toe to Clipper helps you to get your rhythm going.

It seems like a decent compromise to me, since really I thing you should be penalized in both ways for using such an easy intro to a technical competition, but I know lots of people would raise a stink, so the compromise seems okay.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 24 Aug 2007 08:33

I agree with Jon.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 25 Aug 2007 03:49

So to change the topic, did anybody else notice that the last 4 moves of Vasek's routine (ie. whirr>whirr>whirr>baroque) are all "the?" You could maybe give him the benefit of the doubt on one of the whirrs, but the baroque is so "the" that it should count for 2 moves being "the." Are all his whirrs the? I hadn't really noticed until I just checked then (although I have always thought that most of his baroques are the).