Evolution

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Post by Blue_turnip »

dudeguyman wrote:part of evolution is natural selection. the other part has to do with mutation. also the ones that mutate to have more adapted traits to the environment will live on. but these mutations start at birth. i never said anything about mutating mid life... all of that makes total sense. it has no opposing arguement to the bible.
I've thought about this a bit today.

While belief in evolution and religion aren't strictly mutually exclusive, evolution does certainly promote a more athiest view on the universe. It suggests we lack a 'spirit' and are just a collection of whatever.

One day I will disprove the whole concept of spirit, when I apply the concept of evolution to quantum computers. I want to simulate the thought processes of a human being within an epic computer, essentially creating life. This has been something I've wanted to do for quite a long time now (not really teh disproving part but just creating life using computers lol)
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Post by Jeremy »

Yeah well one of my favourite theories about life is that we evolved from symbiotic bacteria; you could think of it like every cell in your body is actually an independent life form, working with (or sometimes against) the other cells in your body. We're kind of like ant colonies (except even cooler). It would be hard to imagine what a spirit is, and how it could evolve from those kinds of conditions.

It's also interesting to note that you have about 10 times as much genuine bacteria in your body, as human cells. (because independent bacteria is a lot smaller than human cells). So humans are 1 life form, but we have about 1 quadrillion (1000 trillion) independent life forms inside of us. I find that impressive.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

Wow!
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Post by professor »

Ben Skaggs

Amateurs practice until they can get it right.
Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

No, I don't play soccer. Yes, there are competitions. 4 years. Lots of practice.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

I want to watch the movie now.

While I agree with some things the guy said, I disagree with others.

I don't think people who support Darwin's ideas are 'hiding' anything. His arguments were just so powerful and logical that people will viciously support it (such as myself).

I also hope the movie actually deeply delves into this claim as to why these DNA patterns cannot come about by chance. Who gives a flying fuck about freedom to propose your own scientific thoughts. If the argument is legit, the scientific community will accept it. Make the movie about the claim.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

This Stein dude, according to wikipedia, "has repeatedly claimed that evolution is responsible for the Holocaust in interviews promoting the film".

What a douchebag. Does he suggest that we should stop endeavours for scientific understanding because of some Nazis? And how would Darwin have foreseen Hitler's rise to power?

Perhaps if the idea of Evolution had been propagated more thoroughly instead of it being rejected by the Nazis of the religious world, people would embrace the idea and there would be no holy wars? Has he ever thought about that? I don't have statistics to back me up but I don't doubt that far more people have died from religious conflicts than from the holocaust.

I expect him to now suggest that Einstein commited a crime when he contributed immensely to our understanding of physics because those concepts led to the creation of atomic bombs.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

And despite hunting around stuff on the net, I still can't find any web page that actually explains these claims mentioned in the trailer. There are plenty of open eyes and ears on the internet so why don't they actually put forward their argument rather than bitching about how 'people want to keep science in a little box where it can’t possibly touch God.'
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Post by Jeremy »

The entire movie has already been completely discredited, without even being released.

The reason why "Intelligent" Design has been "expelled" from the science classroom is because it's not science. In reality the theory of "Intelligent" Design and "creationism" was "expelled" by science over 100 years ago, and that's why even the US supreme court recognises that "Intelligent" Design is a religious belief, and not a science.

This video is very dishonest. It begins with the writing "do not question Darwinism" written over and over on the board, and yet, as every evolutionary biologist could tell you, "Darwinism" was a theory constructed 150 years ago, and is as out of date as the theories on physics or computing constructed that long ago. Darwin's basic idea is correct, but most of what he stated is no longer part of science at all. We now know about genetics, about DNA and about all kinds of other factors that Darwin had no way of possibly knowing about. "Darwinism" is not taught in schools any more than "Intelligent" Design is. Creationists love to target Darwinism because they believe that they know everything there is to know about the world, while scientists believe that we still don't know most of the knowledge there is left, so creationists can point out all the errors and changes in scientific method, and they see that as some kind of suggestion that "it all could be wrong."


"They see the universe as random collisions and chemical reactions."

Wrong.

"They believe we're nothing more than mud and made by lighting"

Wrong.


"Until he published an article by this man; (Dr Stephen G Meyer, Senior Fellow, Discovery Institute)"

The Discovery Institute is a religious organisation set up to try and "scientifically prove the cause of Intelligent Design." Because of the fact that they're set up specifically to prove the cause of something, which is the direct opposite of what science does, they have absolutely no credibility and are seen as what they are, a religious organisation; hence an editor that chooses to publish their work in a genuine scientific journal faces grave risks, just like an economist would in an economics journal if they published work saying our great some shares were to buy, written by the shareholder.



"The original code in our DNA could not have come about accident. Instead of a cosmic mistake, he says the evidence seems to indicate that we are the product of a higher intelligence."

What is that evidence? Because even if the first sentence was correct, how is that evidence suggesting the second? It's not, I could come up with a million different theories of how life was formed that don't require a higher intelligence. If you're going to specifically claim that a particular theory is correct, you need evidence that specifically suggests that theory is true, not evidence that simply contradicts the current theory. Now I don't know what evidence he's talking about, but it's also important to note that not understanding something isn't evidence that it didn't happen. If you can't understand how DNA formed through natural selection (which is not a "cosmic mistake" at all, but just variation and reproduction over time, that is a reflection on your knowledge, not on the actual events that occurred.


"Publishing Dr Meyer's paper would not have been an issue if we were living in the time of Galileo or Einstein but unfortunately for Dr Sternberg, we live in a very different era. This is the era of Darwin and in such an era, those who challenge the status quo seldom go unpunished."


In the era of Galileo, those who challenged the status quo were typically tortured, mutilated, with their gentles crushed, parts of their body shown to them, their face burnt so that they had "beards" and then were executed. Galileo was lucky because he challenged the status quo and was simply ordered to stay inside and publicly state that all his work was false. In the time of Darwin, he had to spend 8 years studying barnacles so that he would have any credibility to have his work on evolution by natural selection taken seriously. In the time of Einstein, and indeed today, you can publish any piece of rubbish you want. However if you want it to be published in a scientific journal it has to be a work of science, and claiming that you can't understand how something was constructed by nature, therefore god did it, is absolutely not scientific at all. Hence if you publish work that isn't science claiming it is, you lose credibility. Nobody is preventing him from publishing his work, they're just complaining when it's published as something that it isn't. He should be thankful he's not living in a time when Christianity ruled the Western world and questioning the status quo meant days of torture, suffering and death.


"The more I wondered why we tolerate free speech in every other area of society."

Science isn't a democracy. It's looking at the actual observable facts of the world and coming up with explanations for those facts that explain all the evidence. If the explanations only explain some of the evidence, or new evidence arises, science comes up with new explanations. It doesn't matter if a theory is widely accepted or not accepted at all in terms if it is actually correct or not. Theories are judged by if they can convince the most sceptical people in society or not (other scientists).


"People who are confident in their ideals are not afraid of criticism, so that tells me that Darwinists are afraid."


There isn't a single new criticism that has been developed by the "Intelligent" design movement for the last 100 years. "Irreducible Complexity" is a theory that was put forward before Darwin, and many of the examples used, such as the eye were actually put forward and explained in Origin of the Species. The same applies with transitional fossils and other criticism. Also as stated earlier, today's biologists are not "Darwinists" at all. They know he was wrong about a lot of things. It's dishonest to claim that they are.


Here is what some other people say about expelled;

http://www.coloradoconfidential.com/sho ... aryId=3229
But this is a matter of interpretation. Other presentations of "Expelled" display intellectual dishonesty. For instance, most evolutionary biologists do not deal with the origins of life. Evolution acts on organisms that already exist. The question of how life came about is not something that Darwinian evolution deals with. "Expelled" acknowledges this, then proceeds to ignore this acknowledgement and fault evolutionary theory for misinterpreting the origins of life.
"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" may be the first volley in the next battle by creationists to give their movement intellectual weight. But its cartoon version of evolutionary theory, Its remarkable lack of evidence for its case, its unbalanced and hysterical portrayal of the "martyrs," its dismal and depressing musical score, and its lack of genuine humor will persuade only the already persuaded.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007 ... p_fast.php

(about the same preview)
It's going to appeal strongly to the religious, the paranoid, the conspiracy theorists, and the ignorant — which means they're going to draw in about 90% of the American market. I see two potential weaknesses: 1) they lie everytime they mention evolution, which we already know is tough to counter, and 2) it really is unbelievably way over the top. Unfortunately, in this age of Fox News, it may not be possible to go enough over the top to trigger anyone's suspicions anymore.
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Post by Jeremy »

Can somebody fix my bold tags. There should be a close bold around the italics of "It's not science." Also delete this post when you're done :)

-- Fixed those tags for you. Max
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Post by james »

It's really a shame there are so many mindless shmucks running around and reproducing. Western culture and society is a cesspool, then again so is the rest of the world.


Ben Stein is clearly a complete moron, and so is anyone who buys that shit.


I'd be enraged if I wasn't resigned.
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Post by Jeremy »

God I love PZ Myers so much.

From his blog;

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... _creat.php

-------
Are there no intelligent creationists?

Posted on: February 14, 2008 12:33 AM, by PZ Myers

I've been overestimating creationists. Every time I look at what they're saying about evolution, my estimation drops yet further … you'd think that after years of tracking this stuff, they'd bottom out, but no. The latest examples are some snippets from a presentation by Caroline Crocker. Crocker is one of the martyrs of ID — she was released from a temporary teaching position at George Mason University, and claims it was because she is a creationist, when the real explanation is that she's an incompetent kook.

Her powerpoint slides have to be seen to be believed. Here's one example. Can you spot the egregious errors?
Presumed Transitional Forms

* Archeopteryx
o Birds there in same layer.
o Is a bird (like an ostrich), not a reptobird.
o Only one complete fossil and has been questioned as a fraud.
* Horse
o Eohippus is found in the same layers as the modern horse.
o Eohippus is the same as modern-day hyrax.
Wow. This woman is actually taken seriously by the Discovery Institute? She has everything wrong!
"Presumed" Transitional Forms

* "Archeopteryx" [is actually spelt] Archaeopteryx
o "Birds" are a diverse group. The kinds of birds found in the Jurassic are distinct from the ones alive now; it's disingenuous to use a broad term like "birds" to minimize the variety of forms known in the evolution of this clade.
o Archaeopteryx is nothing like an ostrich, and it has features that we simply don't see in modern birds, like a toothed beak.
"Reptobird". Heh. What a maroon.
o There are 7 good specimens of Archaeopteryx. Why do creationists exhibit such a pathetic knowledge of the subjects they claim to be criticizing? And sure, an astronomer claimed Archaeopteryx was a fraud. He was wrong.

Horse

* Eohippus has been renamed to Hyracotherium. It's 55 million years old. There are no fossils of modern horses (genus Equus) that are that old — Equus arose about 4 million years ago. We actually have a good idea of the pattern of horse evolution, and Crocker is just making crap up.
* Horses, including Hyracotherium, belong to the order Perissodactyla; Hyraxes are in the order Hyracoidea. They are very different critters. This confusion is a well-documented in the creationist literature, and it's clear where she got these lies…and it wasn't from any impartial study of the science.
This was one slide in her set, and it contains nothing but ignorant falsehoods that anyone who can fire up a web browser and use google can check…wich gives you an idea of the level of scholarship these people exercise. And then she claims, "I was so careful when I wrote that lecture not to be partial in any way." There was no care taken at all; her research is so pporly done that I can't even imagine any of my freshman students doing such a sloppy job.

Crocker makes the interesting argument that she shouldn't have been fired for presenting this material to her students, because the administrators knew what she'd been teaching — she had all these slides posted on the web. She seems oblivious to the possibility that she lost her job precisely because of the poor content of her work. It wouldn't matter whether someone was a creationist or not, if a colleague of mine who accepted evolution were lying to her students with such ignorant fabrications, I would be lobbying to not renew her contract, too.

Watch the video where she claims to have been teaching only science, and that her dismissal was an issue of academic freedom. That one slide above, though, is sufficient to demonstrate that there's another very good reason she was let go: she was incompetent and unqualified. Be warned, though, that the video also includes clips of Slimy Sal Cordova. You'll need to shower afterwards.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

lol @ above post.
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Post by Pinkus »

I saw a documentary on the evangelist Christians, and those people are so hardcore about their beliefs that 75% of all home schooled children in the US are evangelist (because evangelists don't want their kids learning about evolution or any kind of science).

Seeing a high percent of evangelists being home schooled didn't surprise me, but seeing that high of a percent for all of America did. I guess there are a lot more evangelists than I thought.
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Post by Jeremy »

Expelled losing more credibility:

http://www.coloradoconfidential.com/sho ... aryId=3463


------------
The Search for Truth, God and Braver Scientists in 'Expelled'
by: Dan Whipple
Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 04:58 PM MST


Over the past couple thousand years, a lot of people have tried to establish convincing rational proofs of God.

In Summa Theologica, for instance, written between 1265 and 1274, Thomas Aquinas produced five arguments for the existence of God, one of which was the "argument of design." Aquinas said that an intelligent being whom we call God guides natural bodies.

19th century theologian William Paley in 1802 argued that if you found a watch on the ground, you'd be likely to posit a watchmaker. If you find yourself in the midst of a universe far more complex than a watch, you'd likely posit a Designer God. Q.E.D.

German Catholic theologian Hans Küng wrote a lengthy book titled Does God Exist?, a question he answered in the affirmative. "Some time ago," Küng wrote in 1978, "an English Nobel prizewinner is supposed to have answered the question whether he believed in God: 'Of course not. I am a scientist.' This book is sustained by the hope that a new age is dawning when the very opposite answer will be given: 'Of course. I am a scientist.'"

Ben Stein is not satisfied with these efforts. Stein, best known as the boring economics teacher in the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off, and his cohorts in the movie trade have felt it necessary to rush to God's defense against the assaults of science in the film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

I wrote a review of Expelled on this site in December. The producers inadvertently invited us to a screening of it. As I said at the time, they were kind enough to invite me, so I feel bad about disliking it so much.

They disliked my review. So much that they now ask people who watch the film to sign nondisclosure agreements before they see it. (Expelled won't be officially released until April.) So much, that they put 72 links of commentary on their website, but omit my review, the only one of the 72 who had actually seen the movie. I am crushed, I tell you. Crushed.

Roger Moore, a reviewer for the Orlando Sentinel was also inadvertently invited to a screening, where he refused to sign one of these nondisclosure agreements, bless his heart. You can read what Moore thought of the movie here.

I thought the Expelled crowd was done with me, but lo! I received an email invitation to a telephone press conference with Stein and the producers in late January.

Now if Expelled can be said to have a theme, it is that all sorts of ideas should be batted around the ballfield of science and theology, that there should be freedom of expression. I was jazzed. I'd get to ask my questions. It would be American intellectual combat at its most naked. As producer Walt Ruloff put it:
"What we're really asking for is freedom of speech, and allowing science, and students, people in applied or theoretical research to have the freedom to go where they need to go and ask the questions."
This makes it ironic, at least, that they expected the Orlando Sentinel to sign a nondisclosure agreement.

But there are limits. Let's face it. We all have them. Freedom of expression is unseemly at an Expelled press conference. There was no give-and-take, no open marketplace of ideas, in fact, scarcely any questions at all. Ruloff and Stein batted one softball after another out of the park from those posed by Paul Lauer, a representative of the film's public relations firm. Questions from non-employees had to be submitted by email. Lauer (or somebody at his firm) screened them.

I'm not sure whether Thomas Aquinas handled media inquiries this way. I'll have my people get back to your people on that.

Image

The questions that made it through the screening were from: Listen Up TV, a Christian program; the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention; Focus on the Family; and the Colorado Catholic Herald. Four outside questions in 50 minutes of press conference, only two of which can be described as "press."

I've participated in a lot of press conferences in my thirty years as a journalist. I once bumped into President Gerald Ford on the front lawn of the White House. I had a question for him, which he politely answered. I went to a press conference by John Lennon and Yoko Ono, who took all of our questions and hung around afterward to talk with me. I've had press conference questions answered by physicists Hans Bethe and Edward Teller, "father of the hydrogen bomb"; by Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson; by John Wayne; by U.S, Secretary of Defense Richard Cheney; by U.S. Sens. Alan Simpson, Craig Thomas, John Kerry, Malcolm Wallop and Gary Hart, and by lots and lots of other public figures whose time I've wasted. Some of my questions were argumentative, but all were thoroughly - if sometimes equally argumentatively -- answered.

Until I got to Ben Stein. Though calling for the rough-and-tumble of openness and debate, Stein didn't have time for questions.

In my earlier review, I dealt with Expelled as a failed and dull attack on evolution. But this "press conference" convinced me that not only is Expelled and the intellectual movement behind it hypocritical in its supposed defense of "freedom of expression," it's an attack on the entire superstructure of science and technology that has created the modern world. Expelled is anti-rational.

To quote from the media extravaganza (all the quotes that follow are from the Expelled staff's transcript of the phone call):
Paul Lauer: You mentioned that Darwinism appears to be lacking on certain fronts. From your research, and your travels, and interviews with many different scientists, what are some of the areas that scientists are, perhaps, increasingly saying are problematic with the theory of, Darwin's Theory of Evolution?

Ben Stein:Well, just a couple of them, I've already hit one is: Where did life come from? Second one is: How did the cell get so complex? Third one, which I think is overwhelming, and just sort of blows the whole theory of Random Mutation out of the water, is, at least, let me say, raises big questions, that is. Assuming it all did happen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, where did the laws of gravity come from. Where did the laws of thermodynamics come from? Where did the laws of motion and, of heat come from? Where, I guess that's the same as thermodynamics. Where did all these laws, that make it possible for the universe to function, where did they all come from? Why isn't all just chaos and everything collapsing in on itself and killing everything? I think that`s where the universe works. Who created these perfect laws, that keeps the planet in motion, keeps the blood pumping through our bodies? So, I think, all these are giant questions that need answers.
Giant questions, indeed. However, only one of them -- the complexity of the cell -- has anything to do with Darwinism or evolution. The others are very interesting questions, especially why the conditions of the universe seem to be so finely attuned to human existence. They are active and important areas of research across many fields, primarily physics. But evolutionary theory does not argue that the laws of gravity arose from natural selection, or that natural selection keeps the planets in motion. Stein is getting his Ferris confused with his Bueller.

Except for the evolutionary theorists, atheists and other Darwinists appearing in Expelled all of whom answered questions forthrightly, Stein and company seem to have interviewed an exceptionally cowardly crop of scientists. Here's what producer Walt Ruloff had to say:
Paul Lauer: Sure. Walt, there was some out there who wanted to speak on this issue but they were afraid to show their identity. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Walt Ruloff: Yeah, we interviewed many, many, many scientists, who, first of all, we talked to hundreds and hundreds of scientists who wouldn't even talk - wouldn't even go on camera, even if we assured them that we were going to black them out. So, the ones that finally did, there were dozens of scientists that we were able to do that with. The reason why they need to do that is because if they stray from the current orthodoxy, if they stray from a Darwinian position, and you'll see this in the movie, these people have been called in to their superiors' office and have lost their jobs, or have been denied tenure, or have been so discredited by the powers that be, that their future, and their hopes and dreams of being a scientist have been squashed, and so, this is a real problem, as we've discussed.
I've been interviewing scientists nearly every day for twenty years. Don't get me started. I have a lot of complaints about them. But refusing to defend their research isn't one. Most of the time, you can't get 'em to shut up. They are so eager to promote their latest hypothesis that I still don't know whether it's safe to drink coffee or not. The concept of "hundreds and hundreds of scientists" afraid to talk about their favorite idea is so unlike real life that I have to question - how to put this politely? - Ruloff's support for this assertion. But then I haven't talked to every scientist in the world. Maybe I just missed these hundreds and hundreds.

In my experience, scientists are forthright, diligent and feverishly eager to promote their ideas. There is no greater scientific laurel to be gained than to overturn the reigning paradigm. I get periodic emails from a wonderful man, a respected nuclear chemist, who has a groundbreaking idea about the makeup of the sun. He thinks it's a ball of iron. The world's leading solar physicist described these ideas to me as "crackpot science." Does this make my nuclear chemist shy of publicity? Does it make him quake in the shadows and hide from the cameras? Is he so terrified of the solar physics establishment that he can't eat his morning cereal? No. He sends out another blanket email with dense formulae, along with a polite note. But the sun remains un-ironed.

Evidence that evolutionary theory was wrong would rock the world of biology, permanently assuring the immortality of the discoverer, putting him or her in the pantheon of Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Darwin and Einstein.

And that wouldn't be even an ankle tattoo on the guy who discovers the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas would be spinning in his grave.

The key word here, though, is "evidence." Even Aquinas knew that arguments aren't proof. Simply finding Darwinism inconvenient is not sufficient grounds for rejection. So what is it that's keeping these quivering aspens from appearing on camera? Fear of funding? No. Lack of evidence. You'd be scared too, going into a battle of wits unarmed.

I hate to say this, Walt Ruloff and Ben Stein having spent a lot of money to make this movie and all, but it seems to me more likely that these frightened scientists just don't exist. I'm calling "Bullshit."

So I sent a question to the Expelled people during their media extravaganza in the naïve assumption that it would be like every other press conference I've been invited to participate in over the past thirty years.

And this was my question:
The National Academy of Sciences recently issued a report saying that "The rapid advances now being made in the life sciences and in medicine rest on principles derived from an understanding of evolution." The report cites successes in combating the SARS virus, development of drought and pest resistant crops, and the creation of enzymes to make corn-based ethanol, as recent developments to which evolutionary theory was indispensable. If evolution inspires as much evil as your film argues that it does, should we refuse to use these technologies until they can be replicated by an intelligent-design-based research program?
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Post by Jeremy »

I just wanted to add that this is probably the funniest statement I've heard somebody say in a very long time;


"Third one, which I think is overwhelming, and just sort of blows the whole theory of Random Mutation out of the water, is, at least, let me say, raises big questions, that is. Assuming it all did happen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, where did the laws of gravity come from. Where did the laws of thermodynamics come from? Where did the laws of motion and, of heat come from? Where, I guess that's the same as thermodynamics. Where did all these laws, that make it possible for the universe to function, where did they all come from? Why isn't all just chaos and everything collapsing in on itself and killing everything? I think that`s where the universe works. Who created these perfect laws, that keeps the planet in motion, keeps the blood pumping through our bodies?"


I hope I don't need to explain why that's about the stupidest thing that's ever been said.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

That article was wicked.

I lol'ed at the cartoon hard. Hopefully I can say something similar in my lifetime.
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Post by james_dean »

Wow. So bad it's awesome.
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"It's a punk one!" - Auntie Val, after being shown a spikey footbag

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Post by Jeremy »

Has anybody been following the Expelled fiasco that Ben Skaggs posted a link to the trailer of?

Here's the latest news;

There was a free screening of the movie where you could sign up for tickets online. PZ Myers (a famous atheist, biologist and blogger) signed up and also signed up to take along 3 guests.

As they waited for the movie to start, security arrived and told Myers he had to leave the theatre. He was expelled from Expelled, so to speak. It's unclear why he was expelled. The producer of the film explicitly said that he was not allowed to attend. He's quoted as saying that he was afraid Myers would disrupt the screening, but also as saying that he just wanted Myers to have to pay to see it. One suspects the second reason is more valid than the first, because Myers was the only person kicked out, his three guests were allowed to attend.

In a fantastic coincidence, the American Atheist Conference was on at the same time, and this meant that one of Myers guests happened to be Richard Dawkins, who was not expelled from Expelled, but allowed to stay and even ask questions at the end.

There's a lot of other dodgy business with the film. For example many of the scientists who appear in the film (including PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins) were given a completely different title for the film (Crossroads I think) and were lied to about the intentions. The producer claims that the other title was a "working" title, but the final title was completely in use at that time of filming as well.
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Post by Blue_turnip »

Lame
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Post by Tsiangkun »

As I am verifying the integrity of my first synthetic
gene this week, I'm wondering

does it matter " if " "evolution" occurs or not ?

Even if things haven't been changing for millions of
years, things are changing now.
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