[after re-reading Jeremy's Hitler-esk rant above]
Ian - Bravo for seeing the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Jeremy - This is OUR sport NOT your sport.
This is the main problem with a dictatorship; the dictator imposes his will on the people. We are not Jeremy's people. We are a community that shares the love and participation for the sport of footbag.
Since you have only been playing 8 years Jeremy (I have been playing 12) let me clue you into a few things that happened before your time.
Trick Name: The Jester
This is probably the most recognized trick name in the World associated with "Hacky Sack" aka footbag. We call it "Flying Clipper". Why is it so popular? IDK - but it resonates with non-footbaggers who out number us hundreds if not thousands to 1. It is hands down (by the numbers) the MOST popular trick in the World. period.
Eric Wulff made Flyers very popular. He incorporated them into shred and creatively weaved flyers into a stall dominated arena.
Not including Flyers in any relevant Video verified World Record list is not realistic and very Hitler-esk. This is my opinion - as you said - I am giving you some feedback.
As for obscure tricks - Sailing Tap is legit. Taking it out because you haven't seen it often is a total fallacy in logic. Why? You say you only kick with one other guy. How can you possibly know the average trick base with such limited experience? Video doesn't count. Why? Because video on the web is limited to those with cams. I don't have a cam, but I bet you a dollar (I am poor) that I have a few tricks in my arsenal that you have never seen before, yet miraculously they are hit and hit often.
Example: Tuan Vu (Raw Shred)
Tuan hits Double-Over-Swish aka DOD rake. This inspired an entire movement of tricks that had not been explored. I believe Jorden hits gyro whirly gig rake as an opener in his big trick video. Alesh hit triple over rake. It inspired me seeing it in person at Venice beach in CA. I also believe that Vasek hits whirlwind rake in a WINNING sick 3 comp. Dave Clavens hit stepping rev. whilring rake in his recent epic run video. This was a trick I invented!!!
Having the ability to return any clipper trick back to toe has opened the doors to a whole new world of possible links. Legbeater rake repeat for example. (I hold the world record for that gem.)
Something else that bugs me about a smaller trick base/list. This is footbag freestyle, not trendy footbag. I don't like the idea of trends in footbag. It's like hairdos. The pompadour is out, but to Elvis fans it will always be in style.
If you intend to limit the tricks to any number then you are not realistically representing freestyle. To Bob's point - many great players have been inspired by obscure tricks. Brian Bear for example hit pendulous barfly rake in person standing right in front of me. How freaking awesome and obscure is that? Not only did he hit a Barfly rake, which I believe you consider obscure, but he hit it out of a cross body toe. Very inspiring to see that.
I guess the bottom line is that the list you are creating is all in your mind. Let go - it's ok, footbag was here before you and will continue to evolve, grow, and amaze for years after you are gone.
I like you Jeremy. In general your heart is in the right place. But in reality you come across as a prick who thinks he knows it all. You have never shredded with me or my crew, so how can you possibly know what is and is not common place in freestyle? You cannot.
As for spinning toe, forehead stall, back-flip kick, etc... If it is hittable then it should be included.
You are not Guinness Jeremy, so it is ok that your list may grow to ridiculous numbers. You can post a short with a link to view all. I work on a website that covers 117 sports. We only advertise for 11 of those, but the others are available for view and only a click away. You could do the same. Limit your base and call it "base tricks", and have another list called "obscure" or "all other tricks". Again to Bob's point - these are inspiring.
I think forcing a square into a round hole is a bad idea.
Sorry to be a thorn, but I just cannot keep watching these videos with the hope that these will be taken seriously. Only to find out that they will be cut out due to obscurity (In Jeremy's mind), or restricted criteria.
I'll leave you with one simple question: If I post a few World Records of rake dominated tricks (given cleanliness) will they make your list? Or do I seriously need to force the issue of another list and/or make my own?
Thanks,
Jeremy O'Wheel's Freestyle World Record List
+1 for zero subjectivity with respect to trick selection.
even if nobody else hits pixie tap, it can inspire someone to want to hit pixie tap. then more people will be hitting pixie tap.
style isn't something that should be restricted in any way, imo. ( long live pixie ducking toe! )
awesome thread. ) dope videos with a hint of drama.
even if nobody else hits pixie tap, it can inspire someone to want to hit pixie tap. then more people will be hitting pixie tap.
style isn't something that should be restricted in any way, imo. ( long live pixie ducking toe! )
awesome thread. ) dope videos with a hint of drama.
greg raymond, kingston
FB: Rocker Holliday
"What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know." - Jack Handey
FB: Rocker Holliday
"What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know." - Jack Handey
Sorry for what is probably going to be a long and boring post.
1. I'm not going to read or respond to any post that begins by comparing me, or linking me in any manner to Hitler. I'm not sure if that was a joke or not, but I don't really care either. Have a sense of perspective. This is a list with no claim of authority that I set up because I wanted to have a list of video verified world records. Everybody on this forum has both the resources and the abilities to be doing the same thing that I'm doing. It's not a sacred list. It will almost certainly contain mistakes from time to time. If it says things, that doesn't mean that they're true. I'd also like to point out that the only link to that record list is in this topic - as far as I know there is not any other links to it anywhere on the internet. You are welcome to re-write your post, and if it's written in a manner that is acceptable in civil public discourse then I'll read it.
Actually there was very little thinking behind including Job's notation. The other list had it, and I didn't have any specific problems with it, so I included it. I personally find it very easy to think about moves in Job's notation, probably because I'm a geek, and whenever somebody tells me about a trick I'm not familiar with, I think about it in Job's, or ask what the Job's is. I don't really see any negative in keeping it there, and it's nice that it makes the list basically fill the borders of .org completely. I agree about the redundant nature of it when you have the videos, and perhaps many people skip over it like Colin as well, but with some hard technical tricks I think it's still helpful to have a written description as well as a video. I think it seems best to include eclipse but without any notation.
That said, as I said earlier, I'm going to include the controversial records - so eclipse, butterflyer, pixie tap, and symple swirl are all in (unless, of course, somebody puts forward a good argument for their exclusion). Including them is definitely the easiest option available.
I guess purpose of the list is an important consideration. I really wasn't thinking about inspiring people to do anything when I created this list. It was more that I wanted a better list of records, and records that I could see for myself. I think we'd all agree it's more exciting to watch somebody hit 3 nemesis in a row, than to just read that they did it. Anyway it looks like pixie tap will continue to be included.
That said, there's definitely always going to be subjectivity in respect to trick selection, and we're definitely only going to include moves that you see in serious shred circles. One of the motivations for having a better list was all the endless variations and obscure tricks on the old list, many of which had probably never been hit by anybody (at least deliberately) until people decided they wanted a world record. I only want to be listing world records that are held because the person is very skilled, not just because they tried something other people haven't. Perhaps we could introduce a policy where a record must be set and beaten by a number of people before it can be included, although that tends to also restrict very difficult tricks, and I don't want to do that. Of course there is absolutely nothing stopping somebody else from making their own record list that includes as obscure moves as they like. This record list isn't the IFPA list or even the modified list - it really does have no authority or make any claims of authority.
Anyway thanks for the feedback and support. I will update some more records today, and include eclipse and butterflyer. Looking forward to seeing more videos too.
1. I'm not going to read or respond to any post that begins by comparing me, or linking me in any manner to Hitler. I'm not sure if that was a joke or not, but I don't really care either. Have a sense of perspective. This is a list with no claim of authority that I set up because I wanted to have a list of video verified world records. Everybody on this forum has both the resources and the abilities to be doing the same thing that I'm doing. It's not a sacred list. It will almost certainly contain mistakes from time to time. If it says things, that doesn't mean that they're true. I'd also like to point out that the only link to that record list is in this topic - as far as I know there is not any other links to it anywhere on the internet. You are welcome to re-write your post, and if it's written in a manner that is acceptable in civil public discourse then I'll read it.
I guess given the needless passion that my policies have produced, and the minuscule negativity of including records that I don't like, I'm leaning fairly strongly towards just including everything that is remotely borderline. No doubt there will still be arguments later on, but this seems like the most positive overall result.Rieferman wrote:I think a longer list. I feel that some players may find motivation in trying to beat records on the list. So something that is currently uncommon could very well become more common partially because it's on the list. That's a little bit pie in the sky by me, but there's no harm in allowing flexibility and trimming later.
Also on the couple of items that were specifically mentioned above.. Flyers and eclipse would stay on the list in my opinion. Although symple is different than regular style, I wouldn't separate them for this list personally - that's splitting hairs for this particular purpose.
Colin wrote: 1. Personally, my brain shuts down for the 16th of a second that it takes for my eyes to pan from the move nickname to the number. I consider myself a footbag nomenclature geek, but I'm still not even slightly interested in reading the Job's. Is anyone? I dunno. Still useful for new players learning to 'see' footbag accurately.
In any case, I'm sure that eclipse can't be Job'sed (new favourite verb)
C-Fan wrote:2. What is the thinking behind including Job's notation for each trick? Is it to provide a description of the trick for people who have trouble visually figuring out what's going on? Is it to help beginner's understand the components of the trick? I understood the need for job's on the last list, because you couldn't actually see the trick. Yet another advantage of the video list is that you don't need a notation to describe the trick, since you can simply watch it.
Actually there was very little thinking behind including Job's notation. The other list had it, and I didn't have any specific problems with it, so I included it. I personally find it very easy to think about moves in Job's notation, probably because I'm a geek, and whenever somebody tells me about a trick I'm not familiar with, I think about it in Job's, or ask what the Job's is. I don't really see any negative in keeping it there, and it's nice that it makes the list basically fill the borders of .org completely. I agree about the redundant nature of it when you have the videos, and perhaps many people skip over it like Colin as well, but with some hard technical tricks I think it's still helpful to have a written description as well as a video. I think it seems best to include eclipse but without any notation.
The problem I see with a big list is that it seems to me that many people just want to have a world record, no matter what it is (see King Of Kong and in particular the discussion between Steve Wiebe and is daughter). If there is a big list then people will aim for the easiest record they can hold rather than pushing themselves. This means more participation but not better records. If you have a small list then people who really want to hold a world record are forced to push hard, the records get pushed up more and you end up with seriously impressive world records, rather than just good records. I mean what do you think the blurry whirl world record would be if Vasek, Clavens, Jorden and Penske all spent a few weeks trying to hold that record? The current record is impressive, but I bet if that happened it would more than double, and that's not expecting people to improve, but just that I think based on their abilities, if they put some real effort in to it, that's where the record would stand.Colin wrote: 2. I agree with Bob that a bigger list -> more things to shoot for -(maybe)> greater participation. I'm not sure I see the 'cost' of a big list. People will always know that the ripwalk record is more prestigious than the stepping same clipper record, and that people have to actually film these records will probably be enough to keep it from spiralling
crazily out of control.
And particularly, wrt butterflyer, dragonfly, flying clipper, lots of people would consider these to be more important freestyle moves than the toe or clipper delay. These people are hacky sackers, but that's where a lot of us came from, and even if they were completely out of use they should be included for historical/sentimental reasons alone.
That said, as I said earlier, I'm going to include the controversial records - so eclipse, butterflyer, pixie tap, and symple swirl are all in (unless, of course, somebody puts forward a good argument for their exclusion). Including them is definitely the easiest option available.
Colin wrote:3. The only reason you shouldn't have your own record on this list is the conflict of interests created by a move lies in the 'grey' area between inclusion and exclusion from the list. If you lean toward 'bigger list', then this becomes less of an issue. Cutting you from participating would be a shame, because you're obviously interested in setting some strong records.
I agree very much with Ken's Ideal World. That is my Ideal World as well. I haven't banned myself from having records, I just haven't made any serious attempts because I feel uncomfortable about it. I've also been battling a number of injuries since February and only really played footbag at Aus Champs, which was for a few days, and the day I filmed some sick 1/2 videos. So even if I wanted to hit some records, I haven't really had much opportunity. The advantage of video is that I can post the videos and let other people decide if it's good enough or not, and maybe I will do that. I think most world records that I could be setting, other people could beat me at anyway, so I don't even know if my participation is worth discussing. I agree that setting some records could inspire other people to beat them and push the records up, so maybe I'll do that sometime. I haven't even been able to dress myself without being in pain for a month though, so don't expect records from me anytime soon.C-Fan wrote:4. As Colin pointed out, I think Jeremy posting video records in his own list only becomes a problem if he is being overly selective about what goes on the list.
5. I would prefer it if Jeremy posted a bunch of video records, especially if it can make the list longer or more robust. This list is only as good as the records on it, and if we can make entries stronger, the list gets better. In my ideal world, every record on this list would be hard to break, and the list would be made up of a bunch of different people around the world who are particularly good at certain concepts.
I guess it's a separate issue to this discussion but certainly the rules for uniques in shred 30 need to be clarified. Hopefully after the IFC meeting at this years worlds, when I am confident the rules will be updated to accurately reflect the rules used at this years worlds, we can begin work on actually improving the rules. That said, I'm really in favour of some kind of general rule that would result in consistency across moves, and that seems difficult without creating a lot of controversy and disagreement. That said, I think shred 30 would probably be improved as an event if the definition of uniques was very narrow, forcing people to use more genuine variety. This should probably be discussed in a separate topic I guess.C-Fan wrote:3. If I was counting a shred30, I would count symple and non-symple swirls as unique, just as I would count eggbeater and eggplant as unique. That said, I'm not sure I would count symple blender as unique from blender. Hmm... I guess I can see it either way. As Jeremy points out though, this isn't super clear in Shred30 rules either, which is another thing that should be addressed, though not in this thread.
abstract wrote:+1 for zero subjectivity with respect to trick selection.
even if nobody else hits pixie tap, it can inspire someone to want to hit pixie tap. then more people will be hitting pixie tap.
I guess purpose of the list is an important consideration. I really wasn't thinking about inspiring people to do anything when I created this list. It was more that I wanted a better list of records, and records that I could see for myself. I think we'd all agree it's more exciting to watch somebody hit 3 nemesis in a row, than to just read that they did it. Anyway it looks like pixie tap will continue to be included.
That said, there's definitely always going to be subjectivity in respect to trick selection, and we're definitely only going to include moves that you see in serious shred circles. One of the motivations for having a better list was all the endless variations and obscure tricks on the old list, many of which had probably never been hit by anybody (at least deliberately) until people decided they wanted a world record. I only want to be listing world records that are held because the person is very skilled, not just because they tried something other people haven't. Perhaps we could introduce a policy where a record must be set and beaten by a number of people before it can be included, although that tends to also restrict very difficult tricks, and I don't want to do that. Of course there is absolutely nothing stopping somebody else from making their own record list that includes as obscure moves as they like. This record list isn't the IFPA list or even the modified list - it really does have no authority or make any claims of authority.
Anyway thanks for the feedback and support. I will update some more records today, and include eclipse and butterflyer. Looking forward to seeing more videos too.
Guys I hit 32 legovers today so you can probably close the thread and not worry about any of this anymore.
Colin Kennedy
[email protected]
[email protected]
Damon: entertaining as always.
Anyway, I think it's pretty sad that this thread has gone for 25 or so posts without any new records added, so I'm gonna remedy that right now.
This sums up my participation. Other than maybe eclipse, I know all my records here are very beatable, but I want this project to get off to a good start and grow. The more people who participate, the better.Jeremy wrote: I think most world records that I could be setting, other people could beat me at anyway... I agree that setting some records could inspire other people to beat them and push the records up, so maybe I'll do that sometime. .
Anyway, I think it's pretty sad that this thread has gone for 25 or so posts without any new records added, so I'm gonna remedy that right now.
40 Smears
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amneM0b_3xg&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amneM0b_3xg&fmt=18[/youtube]
23 symposium pixies
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yly_K99XFfQ&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yly_K99XFfQ&fmt=18[/youtube]
118 Infinity butterflies
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGNsy-7Vi4&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGNsy-7Vi4&fmt=18[/youtube]
20 symposium mirages
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qpRaqg0OXU&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qpRaqg0OXU&fmt=18[/youtube]
Diving butterfly x17
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0pdgLxurw&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0pdgLxurw&fmt=18[/youtube]
Pixie eggbeater x6
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pnYrLHccG4&fmt=18[/youtube]
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pnYrLHccG4&fmt=18[/youtube]
-
zeroman13
- Post Master General
- Posts: 2385
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- Contact:
Wouldn't this be Ss Symposium Mirage? Either way, it's on Ken!C-Fan wrote:23 symposium pixies
June 17, 2009
Ken
G-Units
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yly_K99XFfQ&fmt=18
Josh M.Wasabi wrote:Footbag is not materialistic; it's about challenging yourself and having fun at the same time.
My Website
Pm me for details about Munster Bags!
my argument would be that growth of the sport is driven by people who try things that nobody else has done. isn't that the essence of originality? which is an integral part of freestyle.I only want to be listing world records that are held because the person is very skilled, not just because they tried something other people haven't.
to say that a player is not skilled just b/c he is doing something that nobody else has done is a bit presumptuous, imo. what about that czech player that was busting out those flapper strings with blender-flappers b2b? i never see blender-flapper in shred circles, but it deserves a record if it is set, b/c it deserves equal recognition as a trick & causes the sport to grow.
if a guiltless shredder wants to work in an intentional pixie ducking toe in his strings, can you fault him for it? a bailed pheonix isn't the only way this trick can be hit. while i agree that very few players hit this trick, does that mean nobody should, & we should discourage its exploration?
my fear is that a restricted list of tricks leads to this list having a homogenizing effect on the community, & i think proper attention must be paid to any endeavour that has the potential to influence such a large number of people.
greg raymond, kingston
FB: Rocker Holliday
"What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know." - Jack Handey
FB: Rocker Holliday
"What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know." - Jack Handey
But surely you're putting too much weight on this list. Do people really spend hours training every week so they can get on my world record list, or do they want to impress people at tournaments and get good results? How many people are motivated in how they play by world record lists?
I reject the notion that this list will have any king of effect on the nature of how people choose to play footbag or their trick selection.
What about all the tricks that can't be hit consequtively anyway? They are all left off the list too, yet I'm sure people will still continue to hit them.
I reject the notion that this list will have any king of effect on the nature of how people choose to play footbag or their trick selection.
What about all the tricks that can't be hit consequtively anyway? They are all left off the list too, yet I'm sure people will still continue to hit them.
Jeremy, I think you're underestimating your own product 
That is, as the first mover (at least with video verification) the list you've created has a pretty decent chance of becoming pretty popular and pretty legit in the eyes of most players. Similar to how modified is a resource widely and popularly used by players. Who knows what it will grow to over time.
That is, as the first mover (at least with video verification) the list you've created has a pretty decent chance of becoming pretty popular and pretty legit in the eyes of most players. Similar to how modified is a resource widely and popularly used by players. Who knows what it will grow to over time.Bob R.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... f&oq=&aqi=
You can find it on Google. That makes it public domain.
Reposted so Jeremy feels better.
[Hilter references removed.]
Ian - Bravo for seeing the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Jeremy - This is OUR sport NOT your sport.
This is the main problem with a dictatorship; the dictator imposes his will on the people. We are not Jeremy's people. We are a community that shares the love and participation for the sport of footbag.
Since you have only been playing 8 years Jeremy (I have been playing 12) let me clue you into a few things that happened before your time.
Trick Name: The Jester
This is probably the most recognized trick name in the World associated with "Hacky Sack" aka footbag. We call it "Flying Clipper". Why is it so popular? IDK - but it resonates with non-footbaggers who out number us hundreds if not thousands to 1. It is hands down (by the numbers) the MOST popular trick in the World. period.
Eric Wulff made Flyers very popular. He incorporated them into shred and creatively weaved flyers into a stall dominated arena.
Not including Flyers in any relevant Video verified World Record list is not realistic and very [omitted for Jeremy]. This is my opinion - as you said - I am giving you some feedback.
As for obscure tricks - Sailing Tap is legit. Taking it out because you haven't seen it often is a total fallacy in logic. Why? You say you only kick with one other guy. How can you possibly know the average trick base with such limited experience? Video doesn't count. Why? Because video on the web is limited to those with cams. I don't have a cam, but I bet you a dollar (I am poor) that I have a few tricks in my arsenal that you have never seen before, yet miraculously they are hit and hit often.
Example: Tuan Vu (Raw Shred)
Tuan hits Double-Over-Swish aka DOD rake. This inspired an entire movement of tricks that had not been explored. I believe Jorden hits gyro whirly gig rake as an opener in his big trick video. Alesh hit triple over rake. It inspired me seeing it in person at Venice beach in CA. I also believe that Vasek hits whirlwind rake in a WINNING sick 3 comp. Dave Clavens hit stepping rev. whilring rake in his recent epic run video. This was a trick I invented!!!
Having the ability to return any clipper trick back to toe has opened the doors to a whole new world of possible links. Legbeater rake repeat for example. (I hold the world record for that gem.)
Something else that bugs me about a smaller trick base/list. This is footbag freestyle, not trendy footbag. I don't like the idea of trends in footbag. It's like hairdos. The pompadour is out, but to Elvis fans it will always be in style.
If you intend to limit the tricks to any number then you are not realistically representing freestyle. To Bob's point - many great players have been inspired by obscure tricks. Brian Bear for example hit pendulous barfly rake in person standing right in front of me. How freaking awesome and obscure is that? Not only did he hit a Barfly rake, which I believe you consider obscure, but he hit it out of a cross body toe. Very inspiring to see that.
I guess the bottom line is that the list you are creating is all in your mind. Let go - it's ok, footbag was here before you and will continue to evolve, grow, and amaze for years after you are gone.
I like you Jeremy. In general your heart is in the right place. But in reality you come across as a prick who thinks he knows it all. You have never shredded with me or my crew, so how can you possibly know what is and is not common place in freestyle? You cannot.
As for spinning toe, forehead stall, back-flip kick, etc... If it is hittable then it should be included.
You are not Guinness Jeremy, so it is ok that your list may grow to ridiculous numbers. You can post a short with a link to view all. I work on a website that covers 117 sports. We only advertise for 11 of those, but the others are available for view and only a click away. You could do the same. Limit your base and call it "base tricks", and have another list called "obscure" or "all other tricks". Again to Bob's point - these are inspiring.
I think forcing a square into a round hole is a bad idea.
Sorry to be a thorn, but I just cannot keep watching these videos with the hope that these will be taken seriously. Only to find out that they will be cut out due to obscurity (In Jeremy's mind), or restricted criteria.
I'll leave you with one simple question: If I post a few World Records of rake dominated tricks (given cleanliness) will they make your list? Or do I seriously need to force the issue of another list and/or make my own?
You can find it on Google. That makes it public domain.
Reposted so Jeremy feels better.
[Hilter references removed.]Ian - Bravo for seeing the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Jeremy - This is OUR sport NOT your sport.
This is the main problem with a dictatorship; the dictator imposes his will on the people. We are not Jeremy's people. We are a community that shares the love and participation for the sport of footbag.
Since you have only been playing 8 years Jeremy (I have been playing 12) let me clue you into a few things that happened before your time.
Trick Name: The Jester
This is probably the most recognized trick name in the World associated with "Hacky Sack" aka footbag. We call it "Flying Clipper". Why is it so popular? IDK - but it resonates with non-footbaggers who out number us hundreds if not thousands to 1. It is hands down (by the numbers) the MOST popular trick in the World. period.
Eric Wulff made Flyers very popular. He incorporated them into shred and creatively weaved flyers into a stall dominated arena.
Not including Flyers in any relevant Video verified World Record list is not realistic and very [omitted for Jeremy]. This is my opinion - as you said - I am giving you some feedback.
As for obscure tricks - Sailing Tap is legit. Taking it out because you haven't seen it often is a total fallacy in logic. Why? You say you only kick with one other guy. How can you possibly know the average trick base with such limited experience? Video doesn't count. Why? Because video on the web is limited to those with cams. I don't have a cam, but I bet you a dollar (I am poor) that I have a few tricks in my arsenal that you have never seen before, yet miraculously they are hit and hit often.
Example: Tuan Vu (Raw Shred)
Tuan hits Double-Over-Swish aka DOD rake. This inspired an entire movement of tricks that had not been explored. I believe Jorden hits gyro whirly gig rake as an opener in his big trick video. Alesh hit triple over rake. It inspired me seeing it in person at Venice beach in CA. I also believe that Vasek hits whirlwind rake in a WINNING sick 3 comp. Dave Clavens hit stepping rev. whilring rake in his recent epic run video. This was a trick I invented!!!
Having the ability to return any clipper trick back to toe has opened the doors to a whole new world of possible links. Legbeater rake repeat for example. (I hold the world record for that gem.)
Something else that bugs me about a smaller trick base/list. This is footbag freestyle, not trendy footbag. I don't like the idea of trends in footbag. It's like hairdos. The pompadour is out, but to Elvis fans it will always be in style.
If you intend to limit the tricks to any number then you are not realistically representing freestyle. To Bob's point - many great players have been inspired by obscure tricks. Brian Bear for example hit pendulous barfly rake in person standing right in front of me. How freaking awesome and obscure is that? Not only did he hit a Barfly rake, which I believe you consider obscure, but he hit it out of a cross body toe. Very inspiring to see that.
I guess the bottom line is that the list you are creating is all in your mind. Let go - it's ok, footbag was here before you and will continue to evolve, grow, and amaze for years after you are gone.
I like you Jeremy. In general your heart is in the right place. But in reality you come across as a prick who thinks he knows it all. You have never shredded with me or my crew, so how can you possibly know what is and is not common place in freestyle? You cannot.
As for spinning toe, forehead stall, back-flip kick, etc... If it is hittable then it should be included.
You are not Guinness Jeremy, so it is ok that your list may grow to ridiculous numbers. You can post a short with a link to view all. I work on a website that covers 117 sports. We only advertise for 11 of those, but the others are available for view and only a click away. You could do the same. Limit your base and call it "base tricks", and have another list called "obscure" or "all other tricks". Again to Bob's point - these are inspiring.
I think forcing a square into a round hole is a bad idea.
Sorry to be a thorn, but I just cannot keep watching these videos with the hope that these will be taken seriously. Only to find out that they will be cut out due to obscurity (In Jeremy's mind), or restricted criteria.
I'll leave you with one simple question: If I post a few World Records of rake dominated tricks (given cleanliness) will they make your list? Or do I seriously need to force the issue of another list and/or make my own?
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
When I saw the Hitler comparison, I just automatically assumed that it was Damon's way of conceding he had lost the argument, by invoking Godwins law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law). If so, that's a pretty funny way to concede. If not...Jeremy wrote:I'm not going to read or respond to any post that begins by comparing me, or linking me in any manner to Hitler. I'm not sure if that was a joke or not...
As for what should or should not be included in the vote, I understand Jeremy's desire to have a list of non-obscure tricks. It just gets a little thorny/hazy then when we start deciding what should be omitted.
On the current list, I think the tricks which fall under this category include:
*butterflier
*pixie tap
*whirling infinity
*ps reverse whirl
Personally, I think that any non-bail guiltless trick that somebody might do in a run should be included. The above tricks would all fall into this category, while head stalls/anything like spinning toe stall would not.
Just for the record, even if Jeremy decided to arbitrarily to cut out half of the tricks on the list (like, all pixie records or something), it would STILL be a better resource than the old records list. I find it funny that people are bitching about the criteria list, as if it was something official. There is nothing stopping anybody else from compiling their own list which is more inclusive/exclusive. I'm personally participating in Jeremy's list because it is better than anything we currently have, and I mostly agree with the criteria he has set out for it.
Colin Kennedy
[email protected]
[email protected]
Let's be realistic here.
The entire sport of footbag freestyle is OBSCURE.
The average person gets lost as soon as you jump to 3 adds or higher. This is a fact!
Why then must we label any trick as obscure and then omit it from what could be the most accurate list of Consecutive Records?
Jeremy - This sport is difficult. As more and more players step into the limelight, it will become even more difficult to get any recognition for personal achievement. By players making your list it solidifies all the hard work and effort needed to compete in this ever growing arena. Some people will spend hours/days/years trying to make your list. This is an OCD sport. And believe it or not footbag can be considered a form of therapy as an outlet for the truly OCD.
Please take a long hard look at what you are shaping. When I first started kicking I idolized a few BAP members. They were shocked to know that to other people the mere mention of their name caused great excitement. Not only that, but the opportunity to meet and even talk to that person in person is mind blowing. This list will have that effect on the future of the sport. If you remove obscurity, then you limit the availability of individuality by only show casing supposed ACTUAL tricks. This will narrow the field down to an average game of select tricks. Players will see this list and only perform what they see on it, rather than explore or open new doors. I feel you are crushing creative freedom. Larger is better because it showcases the breadth of Footbag, not just a small window into all possibility.
Ken - I feel you bro. I wouldn't want to have a logical discussion with a guy like me either. Please just try legbeater rake repeat. You got a crappy video camera and it should be easy for a World Record holder like you
. Flames aside - this is not your battle. This is Jeremy's list.
Anytime someone states that they are a dictator, the images of those in the past that have wronged the masses comes to mind. The H-word is the strongest on that list. It got the response I expected. I mentioned it and Jeremy tuned out. Exactly my point. So when Jeremy makes claim to be the dictator of a list of World Records and that list is posted on .ORG (perhaps the greatest footbag resource in the World), then I tune out, just as Jeremy tuned out. I tune out because in a Dictatorship, only the leader gets a voice. Why then would Jeremy ask for opinions, suggestions, etc... If in the end he is making all the decisions. I cry foul and cite comparison!
Edit: I do not mind video verification. I bitch about the idea of starting over with a clean slate. I bitch about Jeremy laying claim to a Dictatorship on .ORG. This is bogus! No offense to Chad D. but he even knows that 16 paradox whirls is not the record. Scott D. set the world record in person at worlds in 1999 at 28. I know this has been shattered. I have seen Jason Crook hit more than 28 and he doesn't even play anymore. My point is that as long as the Title on the page at .ORG says Freestyle World Records, I will bitch because it is a lie. Change the name to what it actually is "Jeremy's list of video verified World Records!". This I would respect and not say another word. Otherwise this list is incorrect and full of holes. Some of the records will be accurate, but others will only be video wanna-be-placeholders.
The entire sport of footbag freestyle is OBSCURE.
The average person gets lost as soon as you jump to 3 adds or higher. This is a fact!
Why then must we label any trick as obscure and then omit it from what could be the most accurate list of Consecutive Records?
Jeremy - This sport is difficult. As more and more players step into the limelight, it will become even more difficult to get any recognition for personal achievement. By players making your list it solidifies all the hard work and effort needed to compete in this ever growing arena. Some people will spend hours/days/years trying to make your list. This is an OCD sport. And believe it or not footbag can be considered a form of therapy as an outlet for the truly OCD.
Please take a long hard look at what you are shaping. When I first started kicking I idolized a few BAP members. They were shocked to know that to other people the mere mention of their name caused great excitement. Not only that, but the opportunity to meet and even talk to that person in person is mind blowing. This list will have that effect on the future of the sport. If you remove obscurity, then you limit the availability of individuality by only show casing supposed ACTUAL tricks. This will narrow the field down to an average game of select tricks. Players will see this list and only perform what they see on it, rather than explore or open new doors. I feel you are crushing creative freedom. Larger is better because it showcases the breadth of Footbag, not just a small window into all possibility.
Ken - I feel you bro. I wouldn't want to have a logical discussion with a guy like me either. Please just try legbeater rake repeat. You got a crappy video camera and it should be easy for a World Record holder like you
. Flames aside - this is not your battle. This is Jeremy's list.Anytime someone states that they are a dictator, the images of those in the past that have wronged the masses comes to mind. The H-word is the strongest on that list. It got the response I expected. I mentioned it and Jeremy tuned out. Exactly my point. So when Jeremy makes claim to be the dictator of a list of World Records and that list is posted on .ORG (perhaps the greatest footbag resource in the World), then I tune out, just as Jeremy tuned out. I tune out because in a Dictatorship, only the leader gets a voice. Why then would Jeremy ask for opinions, suggestions, etc... If in the end he is making all the decisions. I cry foul and cite comparison!
Edit: I do not mind video verification. I bitch about the idea of starting over with a clean slate. I bitch about Jeremy laying claim to a Dictatorship on .ORG. This is bogus! No offense to Chad D. but he even knows that 16 paradox whirls is not the record. Scott D. set the world record in person at worlds in 1999 at 28. I know this has been shattered. I have seen Jason Crook hit more than 28 and he doesn't even play anymore. My point is that as long as the Title on the page at .ORG says Freestyle World Records, I will bitch because it is a lie. Change the name to what it actually is "Jeremy's list of video verified World Records!". This I would respect and not say another word. Otherwise this list is incorrect and full of holes. Some of the records will be accurate, but others will only be video wanna-be-placeholders.
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews