I just think that the Staff couldn't have done any better under the circumstances. I just understand their aspect as well.
Many of the old NA players wasn't competing. Many of them wasn't shredding either. Many of them weren't practicing the last year what I heard.
Sorry it's coming out rough, but I think this is actually a common opinion what people just are too afraid to say out loud.
Again, sorry for upsetting all of you, it's just that the atmosphere were so different in Euros than in Worlds.
Worlds Critique
-
bigdirtyfoot
- Sloppy
- Posts: 3142
- Joined: 22 Apr 2002 12:30
- Location: NC
Well of course the attitude would be different... it's a more tight-knit group of people. It has nothing to do with the fact that we're North American. At least I don't think so. North America puts on great tournaments as well. When you put that many people together (Worlds 2004) of course the feelings are going to be varied among different geographical areas.
I can't help but to think that rather than generalize NA players that a large part of what you disliked has to do with cultural differences between NA and Europe. NA is HUGE...ENORMOUS...it's much more vast than Europe, AND we have no good major transportation system for getting around from state to state (similar to country to country for Europeans) other than by plane. As long as you're generalizing us, you need to take into consideration other cultural factors of what you saw at Worlds. NA has drinking ages and generally parents are more over-protective than European parents. Our younger players (and there are A LOT of them, including women) are unable to travel long distances (especially by plane) unaccompanied by an adult until they are 18. Also, people under 16 are not legally allowed to work in the US so it is difficult to raise enough $$ to get to an event by delivering newspaper, babysitting, etc. Also, traditionally, the footbag community only had NA players and because footbag was not accessible on the Internet (yes, not until about 1996)...most of us old skool "lazy NA players" only found out about it when we left home for college, thus, a lot of us reunite at tournaments now, years later to convene with old friends that we only see once a year at World's and especially this year since many of us missed out on World's when it was in Europe last year. But did you notice that more NA players paid to fly to Europe last year out of their own pocket than Europeans came to NA this year? Did you also notice that only 2 women paid to come to NA from outside of NA (Japan & Poland) while more than 12 NA women flew to Prague?
Also...footbag has been around in NA so long that most people (general public) have seen it before. It's not new to them and they know it as "Hacky Sack". "Hacky Sack" is practically synonymous with "Pot Smoking Hippy", hence the term "Hacky Slacker" That's the image that NA footbaggers whom take sport seriously constantly have to work hard to break and slowly have been. In Europe, the sport was introduced as "Footbag"--it doesn't have the negative conotation associated to it like it does in NA. Your governments support what you do rather than resist it. Your countries even give many of you money to run national events and fly top players around to represent at tournaments......so YES, you guys do seem to get more $$ to put into your tournaments.
Also, Europe changes official languages country to country, it is better set up to deal with multi-lingual persons. NA is not...you can travel thousands of miles and still be speaking the same language. Consider that Mexicans are the majority race in California and even STILL, everything is in english there. Montreal speaks French so mostly things were in that language. Would have been nice to have it more in English since the organizers speak both, but Ces't la vie (sp?). In NA, we focus more on the audience and less on the players because we're always trying to get exposure from the media and to attract more people to the sport. $$ to break even running an event largely comes from selling tix to the audience for the big finals show. Europe seems to focus more on the players experience...the parties, the music, the cushy square surfaces to play on. NA's smaller events can be cooler for this reason...they are set up more for the players and less about getting a large audience.
This is only scraping the surface...
So, while we will be open-minded to what you just said, take a step back and try to understand that we are not lazy, footbag has a different scene in NA...just consider it an experience. You too will be old skool sooner than later and you'll be going to European tournaments to chill, watch others play and party with your long lost friends while Japan rags on the Europeans about how lame your events are.
And the other BIG *also* is that Net is not as popular as freestyle anymore. Montreal is the Net mecca of the World! So, I'm not surprised you saw a lot of Net influence at the tournament. I'm sure this was a great Worlds for the net players for the first time in a long while!
I think it's cool that footbag is big enough that there are cultural differences within the small community.
Does any of that bring things to light that you noticed in Montreal?
Also...footbag has been around in NA so long that most people (general public) have seen it before. It's not new to them and they know it as "Hacky Sack". "Hacky Sack" is practically synonymous with "Pot Smoking Hippy", hence the term "Hacky Slacker" That's the image that NA footbaggers whom take sport seriously constantly have to work hard to break and slowly have been. In Europe, the sport was introduced as "Footbag"--it doesn't have the negative conotation associated to it like it does in NA. Your governments support what you do rather than resist it. Your countries even give many of you money to run national events and fly top players around to represent at tournaments......so YES, you guys do seem to get more $$ to put into your tournaments.
Also, Europe changes official languages country to country, it is better set up to deal with multi-lingual persons. NA is not...you can travel thousands of miles and still be speaking the same language. Consider that Mexicans are the majority race in California and even STILL, everything is in english there. Montreal speaks French so mostly things were in that language. Would have been nice to have it more in English since the organizers speak both, but Ces't la vie (sp?). In NA, we focus more on the audience and less on the players because we're always trying to get exposure from the media and to attract more people to the sport. $$ to break even running an event largely comes from selling tix to the audience for the big finals show. Europe seems to focus more on the players experience...the parties, the music, the cushy square surfaces to play on. NA's smaller events can be cooler for this reason...they are set up more for the players and less about getting a large audience.
This is only scraping the surface...
So, while we will be open-minded to what you just said, take a step back and try to understand that we are not lazy, footbag has a different scene in NA...just consider it an experience. You too will be old skool sooner than later and you'll be going to European tournaments to chill, watch others play and party with your long lost friends while Japan rags on the Europeans about how lame your events are.
And the other BIG *also* is that Net is not as popular as freestyle anymore. Montreal is the Net mecca of the World! So, I'm not surprised you saw a lot of Net influence at the tournament. I'm sure this was a great Worlds for the net players for the first time in a long while!
I think it's cool that footbag is big enough that there are cultural differences within the small community.
Does any of that bring things to light that you noticed in Montreal?
Jane Zerbe
RCS
RCS
I think you are not exactly getting my brothers point, maybe because sometimes he is blunt with what he says, especially in english. I think (correct me Jere if I'm wrong) he is referring to Northern America BAP -players that have had a 'big name' in here rather than everyone over there. You guys have some awesome up and coming players as well as europe and that's cool. But many of the 'big' names for years, that we over here have been excited to see play live didn't live up to the expectations.
I give major props for Peter Irish, Greg Nelson, Scott Davidson and even Eric Windsor (I probably forget someone else too..) for competing, doing well AND for shredding as much as they did. But there were many missing competing, shredding and/or they didn't seem to be pushing their game as hard as some do. That's what I think Jere was commenting. I don't think that necessary means that everyone is lazy at all, that's just how Jere put it, in his way. I personally think people are free to practice or not, compete or not or whatever they want to do. And people have other reasons for not playing than laziness.
But this being the situation I do agree with my brother that attending competitions in Northern America doesn't have the same 'wow'-factor than it used to. I just think it's cool how the level of footbag in Europe has gone up so much that european tournaments actually have about the same amount of the top players present. Plus for us to go to European tournaments is a lot cheaper too!
I hope this doesn't sound harsh or anything. I have nothing but utmost respect for all the oldschool players and all that they have done (my brother can back me up on this..).
I give major props for Peter Irish, Greg Nelson, Scott Davidson and even Eric Windsor (I probably forget someone else too..) for competing, doing well AND for shredding as much as they did. But there were many missing competing, shredding and/or they didn't seem to be pushing their game as hard as some do. That's what I think Jere was commenting. I don't think that necessary means that everyone is lazy at all, that's just how Jere put it, in his way. I personally think people are free to practice or not, compete or not or whatever they want to do. And people have other reasons for not playing than laziness.
But this being the situation I do agree with my brother that attending competitions in Northern America doesn't have the same 'wow'-factor than it used to. I just think it's cool how the level of footbag in Europe has gone up so much that european tournaments actually have about the same amount of the top players present. Plus for us to go to European tournaments is a lot cheaper too!
I hope this doesn't sound harsh or anything. I have nothing but utmost respect for all the oldschool players and all that they have done (my brother can back me up on this..).
Last edited by pillar on 06 Aug 2004 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
Juha Linnanen
-
the Executioner
- BSOS Beast
- Posts: 447
- Joined: 13 Mar 2003 16:18
- Location: Laurel, MD
I dont agree with you Jere that the staff couldn't have done any better with the circumstances, but I'm not here to criticize.
I can understand your point of view, coming from Europe and being in north america for the first time for a tournament, but you must broaden your viewpoint when you realize some facts. First of all, the footbag scene in america is over 30 years old. 30 YEARS. Many of the older players you criticize did attend and play at worlds, but didnt make it to finals. You must realize that most older players at worlds have jobs, families, and lives besides footbag. Some cannot afford to play 3-5 hours a day. This was the busiest year of my life personally; I finished acupuncture school and did a year long internship-500 hours in a clinic and 250 patient treatments, as well as working a job, and practicing other arts that I practice such as juggling. Even so I managed to play well and place in top 5 for the 14th year in a row. It took immense discipline to play hard this year for me; not because I'm lazy but because I have a life outside of footbag. Greg Nelson played hard this year; 5 days a week, and he has kids and a full time job. Lots of other NA players played hard too.
If you are criticizing the party scene in NA I would say that the party scene in Europe is just as hard--or harder from what I've seen--than it is in north america, so that's not a valid criticism.
You may look at footbag as strictly a "sport", but I've been competing in tournaments longer than you have been alive, and like I said in my hall of fame acceptance speech, the "scene" is the best thing about footbag. It may be hard for you to realize that now, but if you are still competing in 10 or 15 years then you may begin to realize it then. Many of the older NA players you criticize have been in the sport for over 10 years, and that is a fact that you must respect no matter what.
I give nothing but props to the Europeans and other players from around the world--particularly the Finns who did great this year--and do think that the future of the sport is in worldwide expansion, but you must remember that footbag started in North America, and was built by the "older NA players", without which there would not be a footbag scene at all. If not for the north american players who built this sport--and north american players like Steve Goldberg that spread it--you would never have seen it in the first place, so please try to keep this in mind when you think of the sport and it's future.
I can understand your point of view, coming from Europe and being in north america for the first time for a tournament, but you must broaden your viewpoint when you realize some facts. First of all, the footbag scene in america is over 30 years old. 30 YEARS. Many of the older players you criticize did attend and play at worlds, but didnt make it to finals. You must realize that most older players at worlds have jobs, families, and lives besides footbag. Some cannot afford to play 3-5 hours a day. This was the busiest year of my life personally; I finished acupuncture school and did a year long internship-500 hours in a clinic and 250 patient treatments, as well as working a job, and practicing other arts that I practice such as juggling. Even so I managed to play well and place in top 5 for the 14th year in a row. It took immense discipline to play hard this year for me; not because I'm lazy but because I have a life outside of footbag. Greg Nelson played hard this year; 5 days a week, and he has kids and a full time job. Lots of other NA players played hard too.
If you are criticizing the party scene in NA I would say that the party scene in Europe is just as hard--or harder from what I've seen--than it is in north america, so that's not a valid criticism.
You may look at footbag as strictly a "sport", but I've been competing in tournaments longer than you have been alive, and like I said in my hall of fame acceptance speech, the "scene" is the best thing about footbag. It may be hard for you to realize that now, but if you are still competing in 10 or 15 years then you may begin to realize it then. Many of the older NA players you criticize have been in the sport for over 10 years, and that is a fact that you must respect no matter what.
I give nothing but props to the Europeans and other players from around the world--particularly the Finns who did great this year--and do think that the future of the sport is in worldwide expansion, but you must remember that footbag started in North America, and was built by the "older NA players", without which there would not be a footbag scene at all. If not for the north american players who built this sport--and north american players like Steve Goldberg that spread it--you would never have seen it in the first place, so please try to keep this in mind when you think of the sport and it's future.
Peter Irish
Yeah thanks for writing what I meant in so much smoother way, brother :)
I meant especially the "old good players" as I said. Not just "NA players" or "good players".
Red Husted was shredding also really tough along with Daryl Genz. But I still missed out alot of the big names. To name out some names: Ahren, Sunil, Rippin, Ryan, Lon and I probably still forgot some names. All those are really top, 'old' NA players, which were the ones I was talking about, not NA generally.
NA have some great players coming up, just like Europe. Justin Dale, Ricky Moran, Jorden Moir, Derek Vandall, David Clevens, Nick Larouche, Dylan Fry - the list goes on and on. The difference is that in Europe the new players organize the tournaments, because there isn't any old players. I just like the enthuastism I can feel in europe, that's all.
I meant especially the "old good players" as I said. Not just "NA players" or "good players".
Red Husted was shredding also really tough along with Daryl Genz. But I still missed out alot of the big names. To name out some names: Ahren, Sunil, Rippin, Ryan, Lon and I probably still forgot some names. All those are really top, 'old' NA players, which were the ones I was talking about, not NA generally.
NA have some great players coming up, just like Europe. Justin Dale, Ricky Moran, Jorden Moir, Derek Vandall, David Clevens, Nick Larouche, Dylan Fry - the list goes on and on. The difference is that in Europe the new players organize the tournaments, because there isn't any old players. I just like the enthuastism I can feel in europe, that's all.
Of course I understand that not all players can play as much as they like, but seems that you managed to do it well even though you had busy time. I don't want to blame anyone, of course you can't expect that everyone has to play footbag the majority of their freetime, but compared to other years I did notice that the old NA players weren't so good than they were in previously years (I was in worlds 2000, 2001, 2003 and the two first were in NA and were _completely_ dominated by these old NA players). I guess I was just kinda disappointed.
I do like neither NA or European party scene.
I realize that the scene is important to you - to all of us. I have some of my best friends in the sport of footbag, after all I've been playing for six years so I've spent thousands of hours with some of players and even fins can't be strangers to eachothers after that. But being friends or having fun shouldn't be an obstacle for the sport to grow. I think this kind of scene and partying harms the image of footbag as a sport, and there's nothing which makes that acceptable. I respect the roots and because all sport were born because they are fun to do, I understand that basicly footbag was born by some guys who just liked to have fun. Perhaps I'm expecting too quick change from having fun to competitive sport. I think one of the best things in footbag is the scene and how friendly everyone are to eachothers, but I see that we can keep that and also be professional in what we do. I just see the potential of footbag and want to boost it to more professional way without disrespecting the roots of the sport in any way.
I own an apoligy to pretty much the whole scene. My first comments were 'a bit' out of place. Sorry for being arrogant and all. Hopefully you all understood my point and me being just frustrated because in my eyes, the sport took a big step backwards from euros to worlds.
I do like neither NA or European party scene.
I realize that the scene is important to you - to all of us. I have some of my best friends in the sport of footbag, after all I've been playing for six years so I've spent thousands of hours with some of players and even fins can't be strangers to eachothers after that. But being friends or having fun shouldn't be an obstacle for the sport to grow. I think this kind of scene and partying harms the image of footbag as a sport, and there's nothing which makes that acceptable. I respect the roots and because all sport were born because they are fun to do, I understand that basicly footbag was born by some guys who just liked to have fun. Perhaps I'm expecting too quick change from having fun to competitive sport. I think one of the best things in footbag is the scene and how friendly everyone are to eachothers, but I see that we can keep that and also be professional in what we do. I just see the potential of footbag and want to boost it to more professional way without disrespecting the roots of the sport in any way.
I own an apoligy to pretty much the whole scene. My first comments were 'a bit' out of place. Sorry for being arrogant and all. Hopefully you all understood my point and me being just frustrated because in my eyes, the sport took a big step backwards from euros to worlds.
Don't know why I post so much, seem to be in an argumentative mood:)
First off I think people (in this case jere l.) need to be a little more diplomatic in the way they phrase their arguments. cause all of a sudden everybody is not discussing a point anymore but expressing their hurt feelings or apologizing.
I must say that I've only been to worlds twice. 2001 in san fran and 2003 in prague. san fran was definately the more professional production of the two. There's definately a whole buch of people in na that know what they're doing and i count the montreal crew among them.
the points jane makes are also valid, europe and na are two different boots and i don't know how europes top organizers would cope with situations as they are in na.
wow, i've started writing up my arguments and noticed that this issue is actually to big to put into writing in a forum, so i've deleted it.
i'll just throw in a few thoughts
-euroe was EXCEPRIONAL this year and we shouldn't forget that it has had ups and downs in the last years and might as well go down again one of the next years
-europes scene is young and fresh, but we've had 30 years of footbag history, experience and hard work on the sides of our na colleagues to draw from
-europe and na are two different boots. i don't know how european organizers would cope with na circumstances (i know that the tournaments i've organized, euros and footjam, would have been impossible to organize in the way they are in na.)
-in europe we still have a fresh first generation of footbag organizers. in na the organizers have been in the game much longer and naturally don't have the same energy/enthusiasm anymore. its dangerous to see however that in na there is no sign that a young generation is taking over the organization and we have to make sure that we get the young generation involved in europe as soon as possible.
there wa smore, but i'm tired. good night!
OH:
I have to agree with Jere L on the big issue of partying though! I think its becoming way to excessive especially in europe. I mean having a good time is cool and all but we have to remember that we are now at a point where younger and younger players enter the sport and compete at tournaments and we have to consider what kind of role models we like to be. Is it really cool to have a 18 year old world champion that gets roaring drunk the second he gets off stage (and sometimes even drunk when he gets on stage)?
And do we want people on the official forums discussing where they can get cheap beer at this and this place and if enough drugs will be available at euros or not.
First off I think people (in this case jere l.) need to be a little more diplomatic in the way they phrase their arguments. cause all of a sudden everybody is not discussing a point anymore but expressing their hurt feelings or apologizing.
I must say that I've only been to worlds twice. 2001 in san fran and 2003 in prague. san fran was definately the more professional production of the two. There's definately a whole buch of people in na that know what they're doing and i count the montreal crew among them.
the points jane makes are also valid, europe and na are two different boots and i don't know how europes top organizers would cope with situations as they are in na.
wow, i've started writing up my arguments and noticed that this issue is actually to big to put into writing in a forum, so i've deleted it.
i'll just throw in a few thoughts
-euroe was EXCEPRIONAL this year and we shouldn't forget that it has had ups and downs in the last years and might as well go down again one of the next years
-europes scene is young and fresh, but we've had 30 years of footbag history, experience and hard work on the sides of our na colleagues to draw from
-europe and na are two different boots. i don't know how european organizers would cope with na circumstances (i know that the tournaments i've organized, euros and footjam, would have been impossible to organize in the way they are in na.)
-in europe we still have a fresh first generation of footbag organizers. in na the organizers have been in the game much longer and naturally don't have the same energy/enthusiasm anymore. its dangerous to see however that in na there is no sign that a young generation is taking over the organization and we have to make sure that we get the young generation involved in europe as soon as possible.
there wa smore, but i'm tired. good night!
OH:
I have to agree with Jere L on the big issue of partying though! I think its becoming way to excessive especially in europe. I mean having a good time is cool and all but we have to remember that we are now at a point where younger and younger players enter the sport and compete at tournaments and we have to consider what kind of role models we like to be. Is it really cool to have a 18 year old world champion that gets roaring drunk the second he gets off stage (and sometimes even drunk when he gets on stage)?
And do we want people on the official forums discussing where they can get cheap beer at this and this place and if enough drugs will be available at euros or not.
Unfortunately I was not present at this year’s Worlds in Montreal and I can therefore only comment on the posts. I have never been at a NA tournament and I do not have any experiences how footbag is perceived by the public in general. I think it is a shame if you guys a looked upon as pot smoking hippies.
No matter to what degree tournament organizers plan to promote our sport to none footbag audiences, the player conditions must always come first. If our players do not feel comfortable we will have nothing to promote or sell to a larger audience. At this years promotion for the Euros we focused on selling more that spikes and tricks – we focused on selling the entire atmosphere and coolness of beloved phenomenon and sport. That is why a large sponsor was attracted to spend $ 4 million in their “footbag marketing plan” as well as sponsoring the Euros with $ 30.000. This has nothing to do with governmental support and can be done any where in the world if you have the right connections and work hard.
A thing that has annoyed me a lot the last couple of years is examples of bad conditions for freestyle at the most important tournaments. Why is it getting common that we experience problems with lights and stages for freestyle competitions? In Budapest we had not lights for the last two freestyle pools except for car lights. The gym floor was so slippery and dirty that most players experienced problems during the finals. At last years Euros the surface of the stage floor was a problem and this year it is the stage lights at Worlds. Surroundings and premises for freestyle should be at the highest priority. It is actually not that difficult or expensive to create good conditions for the players and let an expert test it before the action starts. In my opinion athletes and audience deserve the very best conditions.
Regarding the MC /language and this year’s Worlds being net dominant debate I have a short comment. No matter where major footbag tournaments are being held (especially the Worlds), they should in my opinion represent the offered footbag disciplines in cool, respectable and fair way. This should be taken in consideration during the planning of promotion and tournament details. I don’t see it serves any purpose to get a Net or Freestyle dominant tournament. If so… we should take it all the way and have separate tournaments and promotion for Freestyle and Net.
Yes we are getting more young athletes in our sport. It is not only foreseeable it has actually been the case for a while. At this year’s Euros we did not organize parties at public bars and clubs simply because our legislation says that people under the age of 18 can not buy and drink alcohol in these places. We also spend a lot of our budget on player discounts because we live in a country with high price levels just like Canada. I know it is a problem that people drink and smoke but this is life and nobody can stop it. We can monitor, guide and help players if they are out of line but we can not decide what they should do after having been on stage.
Maybe a thread on parties at European Tournaments would be appropriate. I apologize though for having answered a question regarding Marijuana/ Christiania on the org forum. It was foolish and in general we should communicate stuff like that in private emails.
Mads Hole
No matter to what degree tournament organizers plan to promote our sport to none footbag audiences, the player conditions must always come first. If our players do not feel comfortable we will have nothing to promote or sell to a larger audience. At this years promotion for the Euros we focused on selling more that spikes and tricks – we focused on selling the entire atmosphere and coolness of beloved phenomenon and sport. That is why a large sponsor was attracted to spend $ 4 million in their “footbag marketing plan” as well as sponsoring the Euros with $ 30.000. This has nothing to do with governmental support and can be done any where in the world if you have the right connections and work hard.
A thing that has annoyed me a lot the last couple of years is examples of bad conditions for freestyle at the most important tournaments. Why is it getting common that we experience problems with lights and stages for freestyle competitions? In Budapest we had not lights for the last two freestyle pools except for car lights. The gym floor was so slippery and dirty that most players experienced problems during the finals. At last years Euros the surface of the stage floor was a problem and this year it is the stage lights at Worlds. Surroundings and premises for freestyle should be at the highest priority. It is actually not that difficult or expensive to create good conditions for the players and let an expert test it before the action starts. In my opinion athletes and audience deserve the very best conditions.
Regarding the MC /language and this year’s Worlds being net dominant debate I have a short comment. No matter where major footbag tournaments are being held (especially the Worlds), they should in my opinion represent the offered footbag disciplines in cool, respectable and fair way. This should be taken in consideration during the planning of promotion and tournament details. I don’t see it serves any purpose to get a Net or Freestyle dominant tournament. If so… we should take it all the way and have separate tournaments and promotion for Freestyle and Net.
Yes we are getting more young athletes in our sport. It is not only foreseeable it has actually been the case for a while. At this year’s Euros we did not organize parties at public bars and clubs simply because our legislation says that people under the age of 18 can not buy and drink alcohol in these places. We also spend a lot of our budget on player discounts because we live in a country with high price levels just like Canada. I know it is a problem that people drink and smoke but this is life and nobody can stop it. We can monitor, guide and help players if they are out of line but we can not decide what they should do after having been on stage.
Maybe a thread on parties at European Tournaments would be appropriate. I apologize though for having answered a question regarding Marijuana/ Christiania on the org forum. It was foolish and in general we should communicate stuff like that in private emails.
Mads Hole
I tried really hard to leave this one alone...
" I understand that basicly footbag was born by some guys who just liked to have fun. Perhaps I'm expecting too quick change from having fun to competitive sport. "
A lot has been said already, let's see if I can give you some more perspective. I started playing this sport in 94' I guess that makes me one of the "old" north american players. I really started getting serious about the sport in 96. At that time there were probably around 16 guys in the world who could compete at a "pro" level. Anyone who was serious about the sport could name them all. I went to my first tournament in 1997, there were two tournaments outside of NA that year and all eight of the world's finalists were from north america http://www.footbag.org/events/results?year=1997
That was 7 years ago, how friggen fast do you want this sport to move? There are now organized tournaments in more countries than I care to list here and there's been an explosion of talent in the last few years. North America hasn't been slacking, the rest of the world just finally cought up and so much the better. Actually I remember back in 2000 at the European Championships seeing some unknown skinny little 14 year old kid come within an inch of going dropless in the intermediate finals and thinking how far this sport had come.
I think I understand where you're comming from because I was young once and full of energy ( too much, ask Steve Goldberg ) and didn't know when to keep my mouth shut. I thought because footbag was my life everyone should take it as seriously as me. I'm not saying that's how you feel, but it sure reads that way. Anyway back then I got shut down pretty hard by some of those "old" north american players and gained a new perspective on the sport. It WAS headed in the right direction ( new countries, new players, more credibility, eventually Olympics ), maybe not as fast as I wanted or how I wanted, but just the only way it could.
I look at how this sport has changed in the few years I've been playing and I'm constantly amazed at how far we've come and how well it's turned out. In another eight years I hope to watch the American team fight for the gold at the 2012 Olympic games and then read the commentary online from kids half my age while I wait for my new titaniun knees to arive.
" I understand that basicly footbag was born by some guys who just liked to have fun. Perhaps I'm expecting too quick change from having fun to competitive sport. "
A lot has been said already, let's see if I can give you some more perspective. I started playing this sport in 94' I guess that makes me one of the "old" north american players. I really started getting serious about the sport in 96. At that time there were probably around 16 guys in the world who could compete at a "pro" level. Anyone who was serious about the sport could name them all. I went to my first tournament in 1997, there were two tournaments outside of NA that year and all eight of the world's finalists were from north america http://www.footbag.org/events/results?year=1997
That was 7 years ago, how friggen fast do you want this sport to move? There are now organized tournaments in more countries than I care to list here and there's been an explosion of talent in the last few years. North America hasn't been slacking, the rest of the world just finally cought up and so much the better. Actually I remember back in 2000 at the European Championships seeing some unknown skinny little 14 year old kid come within an inch of going dropless in the intermediate finals and thinking how far this sport had come.
I think I understand where you're comming from because I was young once and full of energy ( too much, ask Steve Goldberg ) and didn't know when to keep my mouth shut. I thought because footbag was my life everyone should take it as seriously as me. I'm not saying that's how you feel, but it sure reads that way. Anyway back then I got shut down pretty hard by some of those "old" north american players and gained a new perspective on the sport. It WAS headed in the right direction ( new countries, new players, more credibility, eventually Olympics ), maybe not as fast as I wanted or how I wanted, but just the only way it could.
I look at how this sport has changed in the few years I've been playing and I'm constantly amazed at how far we've come and how well it's turned out. In another eight years I hope to watch the American team fight for the gold at the 2012 Olympic games and then read the commentary online from kids half my age while I wait for my new titaniun knees to arive.
I started playing footbag in 1992 and competed in my first tournament at the Euros in 1995. The first Dane to bring the sport to Europe did so in the early 1980’ties and we have had a couple of very talented players competing at Worlds after that period. Some of them have been active players for more that 20 years so I don’t really consider my self as an old European player compared to these guys. I guess we have a lot of generations going at the moment!A lot has been said already, let's see if I can give you some more perspective. I started playing this sport in 94' I guess that makes me one of the "old" north american players.
I do have a minor correction to your perspective: Allan Petersen is pretty much a Danish guy and he came in second in Doubles Net and fourth in Singles Net at Worlds in 1997. You would properly have found him in freestyle top 10, if the list had given a more details than top 4 results.I really started getting serious about the sport in 96. At that time there were probably around 16 guys in the world who could compete at a "pro" level. Anyone who was serious about the sport could name them all. I went to my first tournament in 1997, there were two tournaments outside of NA that year and all eight of the world's finalists were from north america http://www.footbag.org/events/results?year=1997
Maybe you were only referring to freestyle top 10 results after 1997 but I think it is cool if people knew more about our history.
http://www.footbagcanada.com/hof12.htm#IFPA
Peace
Mads Hole
I'm pretty sure a lot of you guys and girls from all over Europe remember the reactions of most of us U.S. kickers when we attended Euro's and Worlds '03. "Holy Shit!" was probably the first thing I had to say. We were amazed by a huge new scene, complete with tons of female players and people who could party hard and still shred like maniacs the next day. It was the most fun I've ever had that had anything to do with footbag, and that is a strong statement given that this is my 10th year in the sport. Ever since then, I've been saying that if footbag ever becomes a success, it's going to happen first in Europe. I too was a little dissapointed in this years Worlds. Not to take anything away from the efforts of the Montreal crew, they worked hard, or the NA players that did shred hard all year. But it just wasn't the same as last year. Of course I still had a lot of fun but... Personally I'm sorry that I didn't kick a single time this year at worlds. I admit that I have kicked very little in the last year. I will even say that I thought at one point I might be done with footbag. But this year I recieved an offer from a certain European footbag organizer to come to a certain European tournament that I will not disclose at this time. He asked and I said yes. So long as they still want me to come I will still be screaming "YES!" at the top of my lungs. It made me feel great that somebody would fly me across the world because they like how I freestyle. It is now my goal to bring my game to a new level and then to a level above that. I'm not trying to talk any sort of shit here, I'm just saying that I'm very excited to play again, and it is mostly because of the scene happening all over Europe. All of you have inspired me enough to return to the stage after more than three years off. Anyway, I just want to say that the footbag scene in Europe is an inspiration to all of us in North America. Keep up the good work and I hope to see you in again in 2005.
Sticking to the original topic: Critique
This is not only for Worlds, but just about every tournaments there are.
Finding information about results is too difficult. And there are lots of people interested in finding out who made the cut and who didn't. At the best daily results would be uploaded on the tornament web-site each evening, after events. Also pools would be nice to know. This would take maybe 15 minutes of somebodys precious time per day.
This year just about the only information I could find was on www.footbag.fi, thanks to Juha Linnanen (i think). And the info there was only about them finns, how they were doing in comp.
ilkka m.
This is not only for Worlds, but just about every tournaments there are.
Finding information about results is too difficult. And there are lots of people interested in finding out who made the cut and who didn't. At the best daily results would be uploaded on the tornament web-site each evening, after events. Also pools would be nice to know. This would take maybe 15 minutes of somebodys precious time per day.
This year just about the only information I could find was on www.footbag.fi, thanks to Juha Linnanen (i think). And the info there was only about them finns, how they were doing in comp.
ilkka m.
Ilkka Malin
Suomesta
Suomesta
Hi Ilkka
Finally somebody noticed!
We actually had a simple plan regarding results at the Euros… unfortunately for all you guys who wasn’t in Copenhagen we couldn’t execute it as we would have liked to.
The plan was to take a portrait photo of all registered players - thereby being able to display pools and results with photos as well as making a Euros04 portrait book afterwards. We took about 80 player photos the first day of registration but then the camera ran out of battery and nobody could apparently fix it ASAP.
Regarding the online distribution of results we actually tried hard but experienced problems when we mailed the files to the web assistant on day one and two. On top of that our web assistant had a professional job to attend and was super busy that weekend. After that we simply became too busy running the tournament to use extra time to solve the problems.
It has from the very beginning been our plan to display results and pools online during the tournament. We even had ambitions about showing video clips from day to day but the documentary film crew was under pressure as well. One of the photographers fell down from a platform. He managed to save a $ 75.000 camera but broke his arm.
Well a lot of things went different than we expected but you are completely right. It does actually not take a lot of resources and effort put results and pools online. Our website was designed for that purpose and we just didn’t manage to keep it alive during the tournament. I guess we had a lot of bad luck in our initial efforts and chose to run the tournament for the players pressent as the main priority.
Sorry everybody!
Note: The results from the Euros was online the 22 of July and you can still find them at : http://www.footbagdenmark.dk/euros/results.html
Finally somebody noticed!
We actually had a simple plan regarding results at the Euros… unfortunately for all you guys who wasn’t in Copenhagen we couldn’t execute it as we would have liked to.
The plan was to take a portrait photo of all registered players - thereby being able to display pools and results with photos as well as making a Euros04 portrait book afterwards. We took about 80 player photos the first day of registration but then the camera ran out of battery and nobody could apparently fix it ASAP.
Regarding the online distribution of results we actually tried hard but experienced problems when we mailed the files to the web assistant on day one and two. On top of that our web assistant had a professional job to attend and was super busy that weekend. After that we simply became too busy running the tournament to use extra time to solve the problems.
It has from the very beginning been our plan to display results and pools online during the tournament. We even had ambitions about showing video clips from day to day but the documentary film crew was under pressure as well. One of the photographers fell down from a platform. He managed to save a $ 75.000 camera but broke his arm.
Well a lot of things went different than we expected but you are completely right. It does actually not take a lot of resources and effort put results and pools online. Our website was designed for that purpose and we just didn’t manage to keep it alive during the tournament. I guess we had a lot of bad luck in our initial efforts and chose to run the tournament for the players pressent as the main priority.
Sorry everybody!
Note: The results from the Euros was online the 22 of July and you can still find them at : http://www.footbagdenmark.dk/euros/results.html
I think there are no limits how fast the sport can move. Only the attitudes of players are the limit. If we consider ourself just a bunch of fellows having fun, all others will think the same. I'm not pointing to anyone saying this, that argument is for european and NA scene equally :) To all footbag players, be proud of what you do. Know that the fame isn't the thing which defines sport from a hobby. You have to be the example to the whole world. And that's why I'm troubled to see people not taking theirselves seriously enough, because it only hurts us all. So be an example. There are no limits.MrMeebles wrote: how friggen fast do you want this sport to move?
I'm not saying you can't have fun and be professional. Snowboarding in Olympics were a fine example how you can be fair and still compete.
That was me if I'm right :) I don't see your real name anywhere, may I ask who are you? :)Actually I remember back in 2000 at the European Championships seeing some unknown skinny little 14 year old kid come within an inch of going dropless in the intermediate finals and thinking how far this sport had come.
I'm not saying that footbag haven't reached anything. This is awesome. It could just be so much better. I see footbag be as popular as any other main sport is right now. And we don't need 100 years of time to do that, not even 50.
In the old days, sports like icehockey were born and it took 100 years to a sport to grow and be popular, to develop. But we are living the age of internet. To icehockey it took three months by ship to get a player in europe. Now it takes 22 milliseconds to a european kid to go footbag.org. In every new place they had to found a pond in wintertime in order to play. They had to tell others how it works, descripe it with words. Now it takes couple of minutes to download .avi from Vasek's game and see how it's done. Because of this we have experienced the huge growth. Because of this, we have to expect more growth. Because of this, we have to set an example. We have to be better, professional in order to make this a sport, not a thing kids kick in the park. Now it's the time when people are getting first images of this wonderful sport. The first images matter. I just hope everyone realizes how urgent it is to us to be professional, because now we are choosing our own future and also the future of the sport.
I'm sorry they killed the spirit inside you. :) Just kidding, you can't expect miracles to happen.. Or can you?I think I understand where you're comming from because I was young once and full of energy ( too much, ask Steve Goldberg ) and didn't know when to keep my mouth shut. I thought because footbag was my life everyone should take it as seriously as me. I'm not saying that's how you feel, but it sure reads that way. Anyway back then I got shut down pretty hard by some of those "old" north american players and gained a new perspective on the sport. It WAS headed in the right direction ( new countries, new players, more credibility, eventually Olympics ), maybe not as fast as I wanted or how I wanted, but just the only way it could.
Sorry for preaching, it's just the way I am I guess :\
I wonder what the hacky sacker to shredder ratio is in America as compared to Europe. The sport originated here in America as "hacky-sack"(kicks only). For years, there was no advanced freestyle aspect to it. In Europe however, it is relatively new, when compared to N America. You may wonder why footbag seems to be growing more in Europe than in America. In Europe, footbag is freestyle(and net of course), in America, we have years of the "hacky-sack" image working against us, because that's all it was at one point. Now we have to backtrack and try to erase the hacky-sack image before freestyle can really be huge. In Europe, i think this is not such a problem, there is more footbag, and less hacky-sack.
Keep in mind when reading this that I have never been to Europe so forgive me if my assumptions are completely wrong.
Keep in mind when reading this that I have never been to Europe so forgive me if my assumptions are completely wrong.
Andrew Coleman
SOUF4ever
SOUF4ever
the name hacky-sack is also known in europe. i dont think that there is more people who know footbag than hacky-sack. in different countries and languages the name has changed a bit: häcki, haki, hägi, hackysacki... all variations. in my town some dudes call it hackyball 
but i guess this has nothing to do with the success of a tournament.
but i guess this has nothing to do with the success of a tournament.