The end of Greek nomenclature

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 10 Jun 2005 00:21

I think it's important to note that nothing that gets said on this forum - beyond the context of the forum is official. Certainly there are no ifpa rules regarding the naming of any kind of trick. The Greek system, the backside/frontside system - in fact any kind of system for naming moves only exists because people choose to use them - they are not official things.

To be honest I think it's pretty immature to give up on talking about footbag because you can't convince people that you are right and they are wrong. Especially when the thing you're discussing is so meaningless in regards to the sport anyway - it ultimately has no effect on anything. There are plenty of things going on in footbag right now that are attempting to physically change this sport for the better - in an official sense - and it would seem to me to be much more worthwhile to be seriously concerned about those - if you are to be seriously concerned about anything - rather than such a meaningless venture as the one in this topic.

I know you think you know everything there is about footbag - I'm sure lots of people think the same. I'm willing to bet that Sunil Jani - who came up with the concept - believes that he knows a great deal more about footbag than you do - and I think many people would agree that that's likely. But the point is - how can you really know who is right and who is wrong? In situations like this you can't possibly. All there is is what's commonly accepted and what isn't - there is no right and wrong. I'm certainly not so arrogant as to presume that my opinions are right. I think that they are right but I'm willing to accept the fact that I might be wrong and I'm sure people can tell you that I often change my mind on topics. For example the definition of a "unique" topic - by listening to the arguements and investigating the rules for myself - I not only changed my opinion on the topic - but it also led me to attempt to make some real physical change to the sport regarding that subject.

Perhaps one of the biggest problems in this sport is the fact that almost everybody has opinions but very few people are prepared to do something about it. The IFPA isn't some mystery group working behind the scenes - it's made up of the players and it's easy to get involved with. You can't rely on it to what's best for footbag without being involved.

"Be the change you want to see in the world" - Mahatma Gandhi

max · Post by **max** » 10 Jun 2005 00:46

I actually think James makes a lot of sense. I couldn't see any of the counter examples given that couldn't be clearly explained quite clearly with bs / fs.

Tom's example of

What is a backside symp pixie downtime miraging mirage?

Is the first mirage symposium or the second one?

is very farfetched. It's a pixie merlin. You don't even need G.n or fs/bs and if you meant "pixie >> op symp miraging > op mirage" I'd say: ok maybe you do need G.n for moves that don't exist and can't be hit (same thing goes for Cameron's stepping symp nuclear set <-- ????).

As someone else pointed out, Jeremi's example is simple pixie dolomite swirl, no G.n no bs/fs..

I'll be convinced of the use of G.n when I see real examples of it.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 10 Jun 2005 04:06

I personally think it's easier to identify moves with the greek system, simply because that way I learn five greek words (which aren't that hard guys, come on. I can say the entire greek alphabet in literally 4 seconds) as opposed to a slew of sets/components. It's a lot easier for someone to tell me that some move is "beta" and know that the second dex is symp, than "backside." It cuts down on the amount of useless sets. I think fs/bs works for 2 dex tricks, and beyond that it gets confusing. beta smear makes perfect sense to me, just as backside smear does.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 10 Jun 2005 05:04

Why do you guys cut possibilities to do some moves? Why do you say that in downtime miraging mirage only the 2nd dex can be symposium? Because in other case the footwork would be too hard? Too hard isn't imposible. Cameron and Eric are right that any dex can be symposium. You can do Symp. Blender. Downtime Symp Whirling Osis would be Symposium Blender. Hard but not impossible. Things are the same with legovers, pickups, swirls etc. Just belive it - ANY DEX IN ANY COMBINATION OF COMPONENTS CAN BE SYMPOSIUM.

I'll use G.n. because I like it better. And for me, polish player with weak english, 50% of the names are mouthful, and bs/fs is more mouthful than Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta... Who will forbid me to use it?

And James, don't be so snooty. Bigheadedness is the first step in beeing stupid.

Later,
Pawel

max · Post by **max** » 10 Jun 2005 05:33

Symp. Blender. Downtime Symp Whirling Osis would be Symposium Blender.

we might aswell get rid of the term symposium then.
just call it alpha blender

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 10 Jun 2005 06:08

You can do Symp. Blender. Downtime Symp Whirling Osis would be Symposium Blender

SymPLE!!!

No, NOT any dex can be symposium; there are clear rules defining this. If you jump off your same dexing leg, dex the bag, but then catch the bag with that same leg before it touches the ground, that is symple, not symposium (i.e. legover, pickup, blender, swirl, etc.)

If you use common sense and know which dexterities can be performed symposium and which can't, FS/BS is amazingly symple.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 10 Jun 2005 06:25

Stephen, you've completely missed what they were talking about, nobody was referring to symple moves.

Symposium pickup, for example, is a wonton same toe stall. Symposium legover is a flailing same toe. Symposium blender is a symp whirling same osis.

max · Post by **max** » 10 Jun 2005 06:25

SymPLE!!!

No, NOT any dex can be symposium; there are clear rules defining this. If you jump off your same dexing leg, dex the bag, but then catch the bag with that same leg before it touches the ground, that is symple, not symposium (i.e. legover, pickup, blender, swirl, etc.)

Stephen he meant symposium not symple.
I've hit symposium blender and been pretty close to pdx symposium blender NOT SYMPLE

The timing is tight but yes you can do symposium pickup, legover, blender, swirl.. it's just very hard.

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 10 Jun 2005 06:52

Oh oh oh oh!

Sorry, I stand corrected on that one.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 10 Jun 2005 08:21

**Hijack**

While we're on the subject, the first time I hit symposium blender was about a year and a half ago. I think I was the first to hit it. I call it Marguerita (cause Margueritas can be made with a blender [though I prefer a shaken Marg rather than a blended one]) in honor of Karen, one of my footbag club member's mother. She came up to the Funtastik Summer Classic and brought her blender with her. She made yummy and strong Margueritas for us, and she's bringing that blender to the East Coast Championships this weekend too! She's so cool! And she deserves a trick named after her. Marguerita!

Symp. Blender. Downtime Symp Whirling Osis would be Symposium Blender.

I don't see why the whirl has to be downtime, though. I've always done my whirls more up-time, and up-time or down-time its still a whirl. Same goes for my symposium whirls. And that, by the way, is how I do my Symposium Blenders: Symposium Whirl, finish the whirling dex without planting the set foot, but after the symposium whirling dex is finished and is again on the ground, quickly switch support legs to the other foot and do an osis with the dexing leg. The footwork is a little tricky, but I did more than a half-dozen last night, I think I had three in one string. I think the trickiest thing about the footwork is to keep it minimal (I think it looks best taking only one step to switch support legs, but I'm not sure since I haven't seen anyone else do it) and to try to make as big of a pause as possible after finishing the symp. dex and before switching support legs, just to emphasize the symposiumness.

Swirling dexes, by the way, can be symposium too. Swivel involves a symposium swirl. Thats not technically a symposium swirl because you don't catch the bag on the dexing leg, its a symosium swirling osis. But I think a symposium swirl is possible. I just haven't seen it yet. Set > plant set foot > jump off set foot and dex while not planting the other foot > finish dex and land on dexing foot > plant other foot while catching with setting/dexing foot. That would be a symposium swirl. That would be tricky.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 10 Jun 2005 08:44

So, does everybody agree that in Paradon Swirl both sets of dexes can be symposium? I so, then what is Backside Pixie Paradon Swirl? You can only guess what I mean by saying this. That shows that Greek nomenclature can be usefull in some cases... And I still like saying Beta Smear than Backside Smear... Or Beta Fussion than Backside Fussion. Greek nomenclature is perfect for people that don't know all this concepts names and new tricks names.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 10 Jun 2005 08:48

ptaku wrote:Greek nomenclature is perfect for people that don't know all this concepts names and new tricks names.

Exactly! It outlines which dex is symposium! What's wrong with that?! If the main reason for the FS/BS agreement is to get rid of useless names, why not look at the other side and know that so many sets would not be needed any more if people could just identify which part of the move is symposium by the greek system. Sure, it has flaws too, but I think it's a vast improvement over the FS/BS system.

sen · Post by **sen** » 10 Jun 2005 10:13

After reading this, I like the Greek nomenclature WAY better bs/fs. WAY BETTER!

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 10 Jun 2005 16:15

Chan is right when he says that every dex CAN be symposium. Many are often not hit but totally possible. Like ATW. Its damn hard, but possible.

Right now I think FS/BS works perfectly, but as footbag comes more and more advanced it will become obsolete. I'm sure there is a downtime concept out there that is just waiting to be hit that can have two separate symposium dexes. And when the day comes that the concept is hit, the G.n. will become more useful, and will eventually become accepted.

peanutbuterboy · Post by **peanutbuterboy** » 10 Jun 2005 16:30

I just like how the Greek stuff sounds. It makes tricks sound really important, like they are in frat houses or something...

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 11 Jun 2005 14:53

Thank you for understanding.
I have hit frontside parkwalk -- symp pixie UPTIME (as pixie only exists uptime), like sameside wonton. Did I invent this or is everybody else too closeminded to understand that hyper is not symposium?

My arguement, and I think this is part of James' issue too, is that alpha-beta-gamma-delta is WORDY. There are many terms which get confusing. I know the first handful of letters in the Greek alphabet, but off of the tip of my tongue I can't deconstruct a "GN"ed 4-dex move as quickly as an "FS/BS" 4-dex move.

Frontside and backside have their place -- it's like the difference between writing "paradox" or "pdx" -- you have a choice to simplify and everyone still knows what you're talking about. If this is not the case, then you simply revert to the more technical denotation ("GN"/"Greek Nomenclature")

Frontside and backside are a simplified mode of denotation. The terms assume the most common dexterities in a move as symposium. To decode the examples in question:
"Backside symp pixie downtime miraging mirage": Merlin is a fairly common move, therefore of the two last dexes (after the uptime indictator, as pixie is the first "half" of the move) the last dexterity would be assumed symposium, otherwise "GN" would be in order. This could be more easily described as "Pixie Merlin".
Pixie symposium paradon swirl: Again, symposium swirl is obscure -- the paradon is assumed symposium since dolomite is a more common use of the symposium element. This move has a fairly accurate technical name -- if confusion arrises use the "GN" for clarification.

I believe that unnecessary "GN" is just confusing.
I had another point, but I forget now. But someone else said something about symposium blender having to be downtime? This isn't true, and on the contrary it is probably more common uptime as dexterities that are normally not considered symposium-potential are usually performed as a set (uptime). For example, the most common stylistic form of "symposium blender" is a symposium blazing same osis (uptime). Uptime is more probable as the dexing leg has to plant before the stall is performed.

PS: What the heck does "nomenclature" mean??

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 11 Jun 2005 15:02

Jeremy wrote:To be honest I think it's pretty immature to give up on talking about footbag because you can't convince people that you are right and they are wrong. Especially when the thing you're discussing is so meaningless in regards to the sport anyway - it ultimately has no effect on anything. There are plenty of things going on in footbag right now that are attempting to physically change this sport for the better - in an official sense - and it would seem to me to be much more worthwhile to be seriously concerned about those - if you are to be seriously concerned about anything - rather than such a meaningless venture as the one in this topic.

Where would we be today without Job's Notation, Adds, Paradox, and move names? The sport will never evolve without discussion of these topics.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 11 Jun 2005 23:05

Possibly to some extent.

However the reason those things exist is because they are ideas that people chose to follow - they are not official things - actually pdx and adds are official - but the other things aren't.

I don't have a problem with the things being discussed on the forum - my comments were aimed at James who apparantly took this topic so seriously he doesn't want to be involved in doing things to actually push the sport of footbag forward.

I honestly believe that discussing this topic will not lead to any agreement or any kind of postive or negative result for footbag - it might be interesting but it's also unproductive.

The names of moves are not in anyway a physical part of the sport of footbag. I've met players who are a lot better than I am who don't know the names of the moves they're hitting - footbag is about what you're actually doing - not what it's called - and move names are not taken into account in any way in competitions.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with move names or with discussing them - I just think that some people put way too much onus on the names of footbag moves - they're really irrelevant to the sport.

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 08 Jul 2005 08:12

I just read through this again after re-reading the (Current) Sets List thread and I just re-realized how amazing Greek Nomenclature is for notating symposium moves. It just makes too much sense and it really helps take the unclarity out of which dex is symposium. To quote Kevin:

qPhox wrote:In case anyone was still unclear:
There is no need for a symp name for ANY set. Flailing is useless, wonton is useless, pogo is useless, flaring is useless, hyper is useless, railing is useless, and yes, even POPPING is useless.

Let's cut down on useless garbage like extra set names for symposium stuff. Greek makes things simple!

Go Greek! Me: Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - Zeta Psi Chapter @ ECU Fall '04.

jedidove · Post by **jedidove** » 08 Jul 2005 10:39

qphox wrote:Okay, I haven't taken the time to read the *entire* topic yet, but something made me chuckle, and I don't want to forget it.

James, your biggest argument seems to be that G.N. takes too long to say. That Backside Smear is easier and more concise than "Beta Pixie Mirage" (You can say Beta Smear you know...)

Okay, fine. The problem occurs when you have to name every fucking combination of components, and THEN the symposium versions!

Here's what made me laugh:

James wrote:I believe slaying is pixie flailing and I think hyper atomic has been named as well. What’s easier? Slaying symp mirage or beta gamma sailing mirage? Come on, it’s sooo obvious.
Okay wait wait wait...You think so? Well what is it? Think that a player who has only been in the scene for a short time will know what the name is?

Well, let's tell this hypothetical newbie quickly (and EASILY) how the greek system works.

1. The Greek System denotes which dexterity in a trick is symposium.
2. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, and Epsilon correspond to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th dexes.
3. Place applicable greek word(s) in front of the regular non-symp name.
4. You're done.

The option?

Learn this list of words, each of which you will use once every 7 months.

Really, who hits Railing sets other than Michal?

Do you think Sunil knows what Railing is? How about Alpha Sailing?

I'm not taking any sides on this since I'm not experienced enough to really do such. But I just wanted to say that after reading the quoted post g.n. seemed very easy. I'm a newbie and the g.n. seems very easy to remeber for me. I learned it in less than 30 seconds. Maybe individual names are shorter but I don't think they are as easy to remeber. Maybe I'm wrong.