what religion?

jrstubs · Post by **jrstubs** » 23 Apr 2007 03:07

Oh, and religion came about by schizophrenics who thought they saw angels and "god" was talking to them. So they came up with something to worship. People who believe in God must be retarded, unless they are in denial and don't want to accept that nothing happens when you die, you just get mutilated by tigers and bears and fluffy little bunnies.

jrstubs · Post by **jrstubs** » 23 Apr 2007 03:09

But then again, I could care less about somebodies religion, I just think its stupid, and I respect peoples opinions, even if they are stupid.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Apr 2007 03:53

professor wrote:
Jeremy wrote:Atheists are making the same judgment, the theory that God exists is so unlikely and implausible that we judge God guilty. We could be sending an innocent deity to jail for 20 years, but all the evidence points in one direction, and the defense has nothing to support it.
I'm interested in what evidence you have that God doesn't exist.

As I've said a bazillion times in this topic, the only evidence you can have for the non-existence of something is the non-existence of evidence. There is no evidence that God exists, therefore that utter lack of evidence provides us with evidence that God does not exist.

Interestingly, apparently there is also no substantial evidence that Jesus existed either. The existence that Jesus did exist either comes from people who lived generations after Jesus died, or was copied down by Christians generations after Jesus died. For a long time I believed the propaganda that there is definite historical evidence that Jesus existed, while such evidence does exist, we have to trust the Christian monks who copied the works, and there are plenty of examples where we can clearly see that they added other parts into some pieces of work, so we can't really rely on those pieces of work at all.

Also its interesting to note that every single Christian's beliefs have been passed on, generation by generation by somebody who had his own son decapitated, and then had his wife killed in boiling water (as well as killing millions of other people). Every single Christian in the world's beliefs can be traced back to Constantine. While today's Christians would oppose those actions, they still follow the same religion that he preached and spread across Europe.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 23 Apr 2007 04:40

i'm a strong christian (not in a sub-group, i go exactly by the bible). i'm not gonna lie, i got a lot of work to do on these forums.

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Apr 2007 08:27

Jeremy wrote:As I've said a bazillion times in this topic, the only evidence you can have for the non-existence of something is the non-existence of evidence. There is no evidence that God exists, therefore that utter lack of evidence provides us with evidence that God does not exist.

This is a flawed thinking for 2 reasons:
1. The logic is wrong. This is how evidence works.
If one has evidence then one can prove or disprove something.

If you know a bit about logic then you know that if the premise of an implication is false (no evidence), then the conclusion may or may not be true. So if there were no evidence of God it doesn't mean he could or could not be disproved.

Now I know you didn't say God didn't exist, you said he probably (or most likely) didn't exist. But I don't think you can determine probability based on a lack of evidence.

Think about it another way. The house I live in was created by home builders. I know this for a fact, yet I have no evidence to support my belief except for the fact that there is a house. I did not see the house being built nor were there any tools left in the backyard. I have no evidence except the house.

2. With that said, I think we have ample evidence that God exists. Not only do we have a earth that's more complex than human understanding, but there are many more clues to God's presence; especially apparent in people's lives. Add to the fact that after more than 2,000 years of trying to disprove the existence of God, humans haven't been able to.

jrstubs · Post by **jrstubs** » 23 Apr 2007 10:50

I'm on Jeremy's side with this one

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 23 Apr 2007 12:04

professor wrote:Think about it another way. The house I live in was created by home builders. I know this for a fact, yet I have no evidence to support my belief except for the fact that there is a house. I did not see the house being built nor were there any tools left in the backyard. I have no evidence except the house.

Empty argument. I see construction workers building homes everyday. I've never seen a god building a Universe.

professor wrote:2. With that said, I think we have ample evidence that God exists. Not only do we have a earth that's more complex than human understanding, but there are many more clues to God's presence; especially apparent in people's lives. Add to the fact that after more than 2,000 years of trying to disprove the existence of God, humans haven't been able to.

Maybe the fact that the religious organizations of the world routinely killed those who disagree with their teachings until the 15th or 16th century had a little something to do with this. Also, simply because science has yet to understand every factor of reality as of yet means nothing. 150 years ago people would have laughed at you if you talked about viruses or bacteria. Science is in a constant state of advancement, year after year proving more and more of "gods" work is simply chemical processes and physics, while religion maintains that a magical and unprovable force is the cause of everything.

Saying that God exists because we can't prove it doesn't is a cop-out, a empty defense against an overwhelming truth.
[/quote]

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Apr 2007 14:38

Slowsis wrote:Empty argument. I see construction workers building homes everyday. I've never seen a god building a Universe.

Obviously because you were a part of the creation. And why do you have to see to believe? I can't see your brain, but I know it's there.

Slowsis wrote:Science is in a constant state of advancement, year after year proving more and more of "gods" work is simply chemical processes and physics, while religion maintains that a magical and unprovable force is the cause of everything.

Just because we understand how something works doesn't prove that God isn't the one that created it.

Slowsis wrote:Saying that God exists because we can't prove it doesn't is a cop-out, a empty defense against an overwhelming truth.

It's the same as saying God doesn't exist because we can't prove he does. If it was such an overwhelming truth that God didn't exist than nobody would believe he does. Furthermore, you would need overwhelming evidence to make such a claim and yet no evidence has been given.

I'm not trying to prove that God exists, you have to search for that on your own. I'm saying one cannot honestly claim He doesn't or even probably doesn't.

Nathan · Post by **Nathan** » 23 Apr 2007 14:54

flockpocken wrote:i'm a strong christian (not in a sub-group, i go exactly by the bible). i'm not gonna lie, i got a lot of work to do on these forums.

lol, good luck.

onto the broader subject: i've read the bible and it is pretty cool. still, there are many parts i disagree with, and the concept of a god seems too strange to me.

i'm an athiest in the sense that i don't think god exists, but i definitely don't think i can prove he/she doesn't. i don't think many athiests think they can.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 23 Apr 2007 14:55

why would God make us smart enough to create technology or find proof that he exist?? that would make his creation of us pointless. he made us to believe IN him and to worship him.

dp · Post by dp » 23 Apr 2007 15:10

flockpocken wrote:i'm a strong christian (not in a sub-group, i go exactly by the bible). i'm not gonna lie, i got a lot of work to do on these forums.

Is that so?

flockpocken wrote:why would God make us smart enough to create technology or find proof that he exist?? that would make his creation of us pointless. he made us to believe IN him and to worship him.

Congratulations. I'm now a strong Christian. Your logic is irrefutable.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 23 Apr 2007 16:04

are you being sarcastic?

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 23 Apr 2007 16:09

professor wrote:
Slowsis wrote:Empty argument. I see construction workers building homes everyday. I've never seen a god building a Universe.
Obviously because you were a part of the creation. And why do you have to see to believe? I can't see your brain, but I know it's there.

Slowsis wrote:Science is in a constant state of advancement, year after year proving more and more of "gods" work is simply chemical processes and physics, while religion maintains that a magical and unprovable force is the cause of everything.
Just because we understand how something works doesn't prove that God isn't the one that created it.

Slowsis wrote:Saying that God exists because we can't prove it doesn't is a cop-out, a empty defense against an overwhelming truth.
It's the same as saying God doesn't exist because we can't prove he does. If it was such an overwhelming truth that God didn't exist than nobody would believe he does. Furthermore, you would need overwhelming evidence to make such a claim and yet no evidence has been given.

You got me. Congratulations. I can't prove that god does not exist. Now can you prove he exists in a concrete enough way that might give grounding to the persecution of homosexuals? How about all the africans denied proper education on Aids and the use of condoms, because the Christian religion of the missionaries who bring them bibles says its wrong? Are these injustices against humans worth it in the face of a god you cannot prove? Is FAITH enough to say that these people should live inferior lives?

professor wrote:I'm saying one cannot honestly claim He doesn't or even probably doesn't.

I honestly claim that god does not exist.

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 23 Apr 2007 16:13

flockpocken wrote:why would God make us smart enough to create technology or find proof that he exist?? that would make his creation of us pointless. he made us to believe IN him and to worship him.

What a vain being! Who would create an entire universe just to nurse their own ego? I though pride was a sin.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 23 Apr 2007 16:22

My god is a five headed troll that wears a cloak of invisibility. He rides an invisible unicorn around earth screaming "SAVE VS SPELL !" at the non-believers.

He grants everyone who believes in him eternal salvation and protects them from ever having to hear from a christian in the after life.

My god is more powerful than yours.

Every day I pray that he lets the sun rise outside my window, and everyday he grants my wish.

He works in harmony with Zues and the Flying Spaghetti Diety, which resents people who call him a monster by the way, to ensure the entropy of the universe is always changing.

dp · Post by dp » 23 Apr 2007 16:26

flockpocken wrote:are you being sarcastic?

Yes.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 23 Apr 2007 16:32

Tsiangkun wrote:My god is a five headed troll that wears a cloak of invisibility. He rides an invisible unicorn around earth screaming "SAVE VS SPELL !" at the non-believers.

He grants everyone who believes in him eternal salvation and protects them from ever having to hear from a christian in the after life.

My god is more powerful than yours.

Every day I pray that he lets the sun rise outside my window, and everyday he grants my wish.

He works in harmony with Zues and the Flying Spaghetti Diety, which resents people who call him a monster by the way, to ensure the entropy of the universe is always changing.

do you have a book that is thousands and thousands of years old and the number one seller in the world to prove this?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 23 Apr 2007 16:33

I was being facetious.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 23 Apr 2007 17:48

professor wrote:

Now I know you didn't say God didn't exist, you said he probably (or most likely) didn't exist. But I don't think you can determine probability based on a lack of evidence.

and

I'm not trying to prove that God exists, you have to search for that on your own. I'm saying one cannot honestly claim He doesn't or even probably doesn't.

I'm also pretty sure you can't assign a probability to the existence of God because the probability is either 0 or 1. But we can make a guess based on available evidence and say God probably doesn't exist just the same as we can say aliens and the tooth fairy probably don't exist.

professor wrote:

And why do you have to see to believe? I can't see your brain, but I know it's there.

You know his brain is there not because of your belief but because of your knowledge of how the human body works. Because doctors have cut open peoples skulls and done experiments that show we don't function very well without a brain.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 23 Apr 2007 18:23

professor wrote: This is a flawed thinking for 2 reasons:
1. The logic is wrong. This is how evidence works.
If one has evidence then one can prove or disprove something.

If you know a bit about logic then you know that if the premise of an implication is false (no evidence), then the conclusion may or may not be true. So if there were no evidence of God it doesn't mean he could or could not be disproved.

Now I know you didn't say God didn't exist, you said he probably (or most likely) didn't exist. But I don't think you can determine probability based on a lack of evidence.

Think about it another way. The house I live in was created by home builders. I know this for a fact, yet I have no evidence to support my belief except for the fact that there is a house. I did not see the house being built nor were there any tools left in the backyard. I have no evidence except the house.

That's bogus, because you can easily investigate and find the people who built the house. Also you've probably seen plenty of examples of houses being built, but I bet you've never heard of a house magically appearing one day.

2. With that said, I think we have ample evidence that God exists. Not only do we have a earth that's more complex than human understanding, but there are many more clues to God's presence; especially apparent in people's lives. Add to the fact that after more than 2,000 years of trying to disprove the existence of God, humans haven't been able to.

If God does not exist, how can humans possibly prove this, over any length of time? Can you prove that houses don't sometimes magically appear without being built? Why do you chose to believe that they do not, if you can't prove it?

If there is this so called "ample evidence" for the existence of God. Instead of telling us it exists, why don't you post it and let us judge what kind of evidence it really is.

Keep in mind that every "religious" experience experienced by Christians has also been described by Muslims, Hindus, Jainists, Buddhists and atheists. Sure they all interpret the experience differently, but we can see that they're describing the same events, and that the causes are essentially the same.