The Big Move from Modified to Footbag.org (?)

[Jorden]

Thanks for clearing things up Steve.

[slapdash21]

yeah i got no problem with moving over to .org, as long as the boston blog goes too. modified has been going downhill since .in anyway.

[Muffinman]

Moving the entirety is also the impression that I got when Steve consulted me about this. I think he mentioned something about PMs and edits though in his first post, which concerns me, because like everyone else I only want this if Modified is kept exactly the same. Having said that, of course the trash that has been escalating bothers me like everyone else, but the mods and admin are currently brainstorming on a means by which to hopefully cut down.

[webmaster]

The current proposal is basically to move modified.in in its entirety so it is hosted on the footbag.org servers instead of the modevia servers. This could happen without anything about these forums or the current .org forums changing at all.

Well, to be clear, Matt and I haven't made a formal proposal yet as to exactly what we're saying we think the "best" solution is. Just that I assure you that posts won't be lost (though if we agree on it, certain areas may be locked as "read-only") and whoever was a mod will still be a mod (and then some).

But there're lots of technical details to work out -- like, whether you have to sign in twice, whether we "merge" the two forums together somehow, or plan to always keep them sepearate, etc., etc.

It's still early, but given all the confusion, it looks like I should just spell out *an example* of how I think the proposal could look:

Phase I: move everything over *as is* so the forum is hosted on footbag.org's server and modified.in just points there, so nobody really notices the difference. This is doable in a day's time thanks to Mike H. (I already have a complete copy on the footbag.org server and, if it were worth the time, I could bring it up in an hour or two). For reference, let's call this forum modified.footbag.org (but it could still be modified.in for that matter).

Phase II: merge user accounts so that users posting on footbag.org and users posting on modified.footbag.org are joined together. That way, you can sign into footbag.org and already be signed in to Modified. This will also make it so your "handle" on modified changes to be your footbag.org handle/member name. But all your posts will be the same, and the linkage from you to your posts will be unchanged. We'll have to merge your profile together with your footbag.org profile, which may cause some disruption, but hopefully we can do it all "magically".

Phase III: merge the forums themselves so there is only one user-perceived forum on footbag.org, and it's this one. There are all sorts of ways we can approach this; from moving old sub-forums aside and renaming them for historical context, and locking them down so nobody can post to them, to actually merging entire threads into the each sub-forum that matches, etc., etc. I mean, this is where I thnk all the complexity lies (though Phase II is no picnic) because of all the options we have to work through. Of course, the easiest take on Phase III is to just "start over" with a new empty forum and lock both of the old ones as historical (but since they're correlated to your user name, you still have your post counts, PM mailboxes [if we offer it], profiles, and all your old posts for posterity).

I don't know honestly if we'll ever get to Phase III, so that's really where we need a more solid proposal before we can say what's doable in how much time, and how disruptive it will be.

I'd love folks to agree that Phase II is an important goal (so that you don't have to sign in twice between footbag.org and modified) and that the contact database that footbag.org is supposed to be is preserved, as there's not a duplicate set of contact info in modified that's unavailable on your footbag.org profile, etc. (I'd make it so footbag.org and modified profiles were one and the same.)

Finally, having everything physically on the same server (Phase I) is going to allow us to have some "tighter" integration with existing and important features of footbag.org. Here are two examples:

(1) We could create a combined event list/forum feature, so that every event on the footbag.org event list had its own forum associated with it (that was also available by going straight to the modified forum). This would be a much better solution than you guys use today on modified to create a corpus of information around a tournament, and would integrate directly with the actual information provided by the tournament organizer (sometimes two different sets of people). I think this could be pretty compelling. The online registration system would be "right there" and all the real facts and figures from the event would be there, but also there'd be the community-contributed discussions about who's going, what people are going to be doing after hours, etc,. etc.

(2) As has been mentioned, we could create a more simple video upload/embedding system because it'd all be "local" to footbag.org; I wouldn't have to worry about some of the security issues inherent in the other model. I could still do the other one (having a one-click way to embed videos onto modified as it is today) but it's less compelling over all if it's not actually on the same server, and likely to be integrated in an upcoming Phase II.

Lots of things to think about, just giving you guys and gals a "brain dump" of what I've been thinking. Again, this could take a while, though Phase I could happen, I mean, really, in a day's time if we really wanted it to. (But still not going to happen for a bit, either way, just to be on the safe side.)

Thanks.

Steve

[century264]

Inasmuch as some users do flame because the internet brings out a weird side in some people, it's a risk bringing over the discussion and kicking circle topics. However, I have to agree with Chrissy that a community has been built here.
Unfortunately, I wasn't around when this great place was .ca, so I can't speak to how the place has gone downhill. However, I don't waste my life away on Modified just because I love footbag. I waste time here because I do kind of feel like I can relate to all of the people here. Nowhere else will people discuss how great it feels to hit a new trick, or Sauce it.
It's because of this connection that I want to keep a section to "chill" in. I know some people will say Don't waste your time in a place where you'll never see people except on youtube. I can see their point, but on days when I'm bored, I do surf fizzied.

One last question. On the issue of Phase II, my modified name is different than my .org name. Will I sign in on my .org name and then be posting as my .in name? Just a little confused on that point.

[webmaster]

One last question. On the issue of Phase II, my modified name is different than my .org name. Will I sign in on my .org name and then be posting as my .in name? Just a little confused on that point.

Well, this was just an example, but in the example, I mean to say that you would sign in with your footbag.org user name, and your full name (in this case Ian Pfeiffer) would show up as the author of every post you make. And every post you previously made on Modified as century264 would now show up as being from Ian Pfeiffer. The century264 monicker would probably disappear, though maybe there's some way I can preserve it, the idea is that we have a single "identity" system in Phase II, so that everyone's real identity is their forum identity.

Steve

[Tsiangkun]

1) I oppose one entity controlling all of footbag.

2) If this merger occurs, can people opt out, and not have their posts transfered ? I post on modified. I do not post on .org, and I don't want MY information transfered. At all. Can modified delete all of my posts before the transfer of data ? I'd rather my post be gone forever, than to be used to create the illusion of a thriving community on .org.

3) I do not want my forum handle to be the footbag.org login. I consider that bullshit. I didn't post it under that alias, and Matt and Steve have no right to negotiate a deal to change which internet alias is associated with my posts.

4) If Footbag.org is so easy to find, they should have a flourishing forum, but for some reason they don't. I don't think the way to grow one is to subsume a healthy community.

5) It's my understanding that I hold the copyright on the posts I make, and I concede the right to edit or delete my posts to the forum owner as they see fit. I don't believe I agreed to let the owner of this forum transfer my writings to the owner of another forum as part of the contract to have a modified account. I don't believe I conceded the rights to change the name under which the posting are made.

:edited for some spelling errors, and typos.

[Eric.K]

bad childhood experience with .org?

[mc]

anyone can opt out.

as for one entity controlling footbag...

IFPA has no control over what I do with my feet. It also has no control over who I play with, when we play, when or where we hold tournaments, etc ad infinitum.

I think that one reason they don't have a thriving forum is that, a few years ago, things were different than they are, and a few footbaggers with very big mouths (including myself) dissented and presented the image of that forum as terrible, and considering that most footbaggers are B types, most just followed suit to the bigmouths and modified continued to thrive.

Now I'm being a bigmouth about a different way of thinking. It's good for the sport if we all come together instead of ignoring and even denouncing the best online resource the sport has.

[Tsiangkun]

I attempted to embrace the .org forums in September of 2003.

We could play games with words, but ultimately, .org is Steve's website. On the forums, Steve was a dominant personality that treated me, and perhaps others, with contempt. That's my issue with .org. Matt may have thought something different at the time, I don't know. I have never felt welcome to post on .org , and yet made numerous posts on modified (2000+), and was active in the Flipsider forum before it was deleted. I chose not to participate in .org forums because I found it a hostile and unwelcoming place.

I will play no role in creating the illusion that .org has a thriving online community.

Being able to opt out is probably good enough for me. Can you tell us what the procedure will be, what will be shown for the deleted posts in threads, and how threads created by those that opt out will be handled ?

[Jeremy]

5) It's my understanding that I hold the copyright on the posts I make, and I concede the right to edit or delete my posts to the forum owner as they see fit. I don't believe I agreed to let the owner of this forum transfer my writings to the owner of another forum as part of the contract to have a modified account. I don't believe I conceded the rights to change the name under which the posting are made.

This is false. Modevia, admins at modified or anybody who finds your posts on the internet could use them for pretty much anything that want (obviously within the realms of the law, so they can't use them to defame or black mail you, but that's about it). You have no legal right to stop your posts being moved to footbag.org or another forum now that they've been posted in the public domain (possibly if your posts are being used to make money you may have some rights). Of course if you feel strongly about this, a nice admin might delete them for you, and you could edit out the content of most of them yourself, but certainly nobody is obligated by the law to respect your wishes on this. That said, I see no reason why you couldn't have all your posts deleted.

It is a little sad that you'd want that to happen, but given how significant an issue you think this is, compared with reality, I think it's probably for the best.

[HippieTom]

i think there should be a vote on this matter, i for one would rather the two stay separate entities, maybe footbag.org should just post a link to modified, so when people do find .org they find modified as well, and modified can maintain as a separate entity
that's just my thoughts on it

[Eric.K]

i was thinking maybe under footbag.org forums button it can be a modified.in forums button and it links to here.

this was actually the first footbag website i found, and i found out about footbag.org from here. either way it goes i could care less though.

[webmaster]

We could play games with words, but ultimately, .org is Steve's website.

I wasn't going to respond to you, and I still won't give you honor of a reply to your other rude comments, but I have to set the record straight on this.

I am a volunteer. I do work on footbag.org to help the community. You may not like the choices I've made and you may wish I was a better software engineer and webmaster than I have been, but you can't not use something just because I'm involved with it. For all intents and purposes, I'm involved with Modified, too, since I actually do have full admin privileges here. Did you know that? Will that make you stop using it?

On the forums, Steve was a dominant personality that treated me, and perhaps others, with contempt.

Okay, this I just have to respond to. Cameron, I'd like proof of this. I'd like links to forum threads on footbag.org where I treated you with contempt. If anything, on reviewing your posts on footbag.org, it's clear you had contempt from the very beginning for IFPA, footbag.org, and me. That's your problem, and your right, but it's not something you can blame me for responding to. In the threads I found in my search, you were the instigator, attacking me or others. Please point to me exactly which threads you're talking about. Moderators: if you want to kill this thread now I understand why. I knew this would happen. There's no way I can have a constructive conversation on Modified without being attacked by certain people, this one among them.

I will play no role in creating the illusion that .org has a thriving online community.

What does moving Modified to the footbag.org server and integrating the member list have to do with creating illusions? This sounds more like a delusion to me.

Being able to opt out is probably good enough for me. Can you tell us what the procedure will be, what will be shown for the deleted posts in threads, and how threads created by those that opt out will be handled ?

No, I can't tell you that. Because as I've said now three times, we're just collecting feedback to think through what the options are before we come up with a formal proposal for the plan. So, you've given your input, we'll take it into consideration and try to come up with a plan to make you happy. But it sounds like a priori there's no way to make you happy if I'm involved with the project.

Steve

[C-Fan]

If there is a way to move the entirety of my blog over, then I will support this with open arms.

Yeah, now I'm 100% behind this idea. There's no good reason not to have the forums on footbag.org. I wholeheartedly embrace the move.

[Tsiangkun]

Hi Steve,

I totally have a problem with this idea because you are involved. I shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread. I'm sorry. I haven't gotten along with your internet personality at all, and I always trash your ideas.

Should this merger thing happen, I'd support the merge if the posts were unchanged (author,subject,body) , they were designated as being acquired from modified, and left completely detached from the .org personal information. No harm done, it's just like any website that ceases to exist.

I strongly object to the idea of changing the author of the post, and attaching personal information that was provided in confidence to one organization, to content generated for another.

If the posts can't be merged unchanged, I'd like there to be a way for people to erase their posts, and as a suggestion, if deleting them entirely isn't possible, perhaps we could replace with 'user deleted' or something similar. Similarly have the content replaced with '...' or something similar.

In this case of a thread, I'd suggesting leaving the title unchanged.

[webmaster]

I haven't gotten along with your internet personality at all, and I always trash your ideas.

Yet you still don't point to the evidence to prove that I've been anything but responsive to your complaints (such as this). So I'm just really tired of the slander, honestly. And to think I have treated you so well in the real world, inviting you to my house, etc. I had no idea you had such ill-will towards me or I probably wouldn't have been so nice to you. You can expect in-kind behavior from here on out, thanks for the head's up.

I'd support the merge if the posts were unchanged (author,subject,body) , they were designated as being acquired from modified, and left completely detached from the .org personal information.

I can't promise this will be the case. In Phase II (in the example proposal) nothing will be changed in your posts -- they'll be exactly as-is. However, your identity would be merged with your footbag.org identity, so your full name is now listed on each post which of course was Modiifed policy all along anyway, and you should have had it there to begin with.

Also, let's make clear that there's much less information in the footbag.org profile database than there is in the Modified one. The only information in your footbag.org profile that's not in your Modified profile, that I can see, is your real name. And I believe Modified would like to change that. Everyone wants to know who is posting.

I strongly object to the idea of changing the author of the post

Nobody's changing the author. We're just correctly adding in your full name which, again, you should have been doing all along anyway.

For the opt-out functionality you describe, again, we'll take it under advisement as we construct the plan.

Thanks.

Steve

[Tsiangkun]

Thank you Steve, I hope you do consider my suggestions.

Has there been any thought given to how the proposed merging would handle identities that only exist on the modified site ?

What about people that use both sites, but that nobody has the personal knowledge to link them together ?

These are going to require similar solutions to what I've requested.

[webmaster]

It sounds like you're interested enough in this problem to want to help me solve it. How are your php skills?

[Tsiangkun]

I learn fast, but know little php.