Philosophy

[Tsiangkun]

How to Win Friends & Influence People -- by Dale Carnegie ???

[delakong]

As you may of noticed I quit discussing this sometime yesterday.
Mostly because I had no acsess to the net over night and becasue I realized it was pointless to try and argue with people who do not want to see my side of things and whose views I obviously don't agree with. It's pointless to sit here and argue. Last night I did, however, look up some information on the Ark and the Flood to answer the questions posed by someone in a link (sorry I forget who it was). If anyone would like to see them just let me know.

Edit: I would also like to say that I am sorry if I offended anyone and that it was not my intention to push my views and beliefs on anyone, even if that is the way it it seemed.

It was me. I want to see.

[sen]

Here it is. I didn't read all of that article due to time restrictions and what not but here some info I found to answer the questions it posed. I'm sure you'll disagree with it all, but here it is:

*** The Bible - God's word or Man's? chap. 8 pp. 111-116 Science: Has It Proved the Bible Wrong? ***

28 Modern textbooks are inclined to discount a universal flood. So we have to ask: Is the Flood just a myth, or did it really happen? Before answering that, we should note that later worshipers of Jehovah accepted the Flood as genuine history; they did not regard it as a myth. Isaiah, Jesus, Paul, and Peter were among those who referred to it as something that really happened. (Isaiah 54:9; Matthew 24:37-39; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20, 21; 2 Peter 2:5; 3:5-7) But there are questions that have to be answered about this universal Deluge.

The Floodwaters

29 First, is not the idea of the whole earth’s being flooded too farfetched? Not really. Indeed, to some extent the earth is still flooded. Seventy percent of it is covered by water and only 30 percent is dry land. Moreover, 75 percent of the earth’s fresh water is locked up in glaciers and polar ice caps. If all this ice were to melt, the sea level would rise much higher. Cities like New York and Tokyo would disappear.

30 Further, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “The average depth of all the seas has been estimated at 3,790 metres (12,430 feet), a figure considerably larger than that of the average elevation of the land above the sea level, which is 840 metres (2,760 feet). If the average depth is multiplied by its respective surface area, the volume of the World Ocean is 11 times the volume of the land above sea level.” So, if everything were leveled out—if the mountains were flattened and the deep sea basins filled in—the sea would cover the whole earth to a depth of thousands of meters.

31 For the Flood to have happened, the pre-Flood sea basins would have to have been shallower, and the mountains lower than they are now. Is this possible? Well, one textbook says: “Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony. . . . The movements of the continental plates cause the land both to rear up to heights where only the hardiest of animals and plants can survive and, at the other extreme, to plunge and lie in hidden splendor deep beneath the surface of the sea.” Since the mountains and sea basins rise and fall, it is apparent that at one time the mountains were not as high as they are now and the great sea basins were not as deep.

32 What happened to the floodwaters after the Flood? They must have drained into the sea basins. How? Scientists believe that the continents rest on huge plates. Movement of these plates can cause changes in the level of the earth’s surface. In some places today, there are great underwater abysses more than six miles [more than 10 km] deep at the plate boundaries. It is quite likely that—perhaps triggered by the Flood itself—the plates moved, the sea bottom sank, and the great trenches opened, allowing the water to drain off the land.

Traces of the Flood?

33 If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is being misread as evidence of an ice age.

34 Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: “They were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.”

35 Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then, all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.

36 An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: “It is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.” The pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger. It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one occasion the extreme wetness of the earth’s surface was a result of the Flood.

Mankind Did Not Forget

37 Geology professor John McCampbell once wrote: “The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student.”

38 That the Flood did happen is seen in the fact that mankind never forgot it. All around the world, in locations as far apart as Alaska and the South Sea Islands, there are ancient stories about it. Native, pre-Columbian civilizations of America, as well as Aborigines of Australia, all have stories about the Flood. While some of the accounts differ in detail, the basic fact that the earth was flooded and only a few humans were saved in a man-made vessel comes through in nearly all versions. The only explanation for such a widespread acceptance is that the Flood was a historical event.

39 Thus, in essential features the Bible is in harmony with modern science. Where there is a conflict between the two, the scientists’ evidence is questionable. Where they agree, the Bible is often so accurate that we have to believe it got its information from a superhuman intelligence. Indeed, the Bible’s agreement with proved science provides further evidence that it is God’s word, not man’s.


*** Insight on the Scriptures: Volume 1 pp. 164-165 Ark ***

Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.

These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.

Five months after the Deluge began, “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” not likely, however, atop the uppermost peak (nearly 5,165 m; 16,950 ft), but on suitable terrain where everyone aboard lived comfortably for some months more. Finally, after a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.—Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14.

Claims that remains of the ark have been found are as yet unconfirmed.

***Insight on the Scriptures: Volume 1 p. 111 Animals ***

Some have contended that the presence of animals on isolated islands like Australia and New Zealand is an indication that not all land animals outside the ark perished in the Deluge. However, the findings of oceanographers indicate that at one time land ridges connected what are now isolated land areas. For example, oceanographic studies indicate that the Mid-Atlantic Ridge may have crossed that ocean above the surface. Possibly there were also other ridges, and animals could have migrated by means of these before such ridges sank below the surface of the ocean. Other oceanographic studies have turned up evidence that once there existed a huge South Pacific continent that took in Australia and many of the South Sea isles. If such was the case, then, of course, the animals had no difficulty in migrating to these lands.

Clean and Unclean Animals. A classification of animals is to be noted in God’s instructions to Noah to take with him into the ark seven of each clean animal and two of each unclean animal. (Ge 7:2, 3, 8, 9) Since a flesh diet had not yet been authorized, this distinction between clean and unclean was probably determined on the basis of what was acceptable to Jehovah as a sacrifice. Hence, on emerging from the ark, Noah knew which creatures were clean and suitable for offering upon the altar. (Ge 8:20) At that time no restriction existed with respect to the type of animals that Noah and his family could eat, as is indicated by Jehovah’s words: “Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you.”—Ge 9:3.

***Insight on the Scriptures: Volume 1 pp. 609-612 Deluge ***

DELUGE

The catastrophic destruction of men and animals by an overwhelming flood in the days of Noah, 2370 B.C.E. This greatest cataclysm in all human history was sent by Jehovah because wicked men had filled the earth with violence. The survival of righteous Noah and his family, eight souls in all, together with selected animals, was by means of a huge ark, or chest.—Ge 6:9–9:19; 1Pe 3:20; see ARK No. 1; NOAH No. 1.

Extent of the Deluge. This was no local flash flood or cloudburst. In fact, the Greek word used in the Bible to refer to the Flood, or Deluge, is ka·ta·kly·smos´, a cataclysm. (Lu 17:27, ftn) Local floods come and go in a matter of days; this one lasted over a year, the greater portion of which was required for the water to subside. How unreasonable to believe that Noah spent perhaps 50 or 60 years building a huge vessel of approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) for the survival of his family and a few animals through a mere local flood! If only a comparatively small area was affected, why the need of bringing into the ark specimens of “every living creature of every sort of flesh” in order to “preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth”? (Ge 6:19; 7:3) Definitely this was a global deluge, the like of which had never occurred before nor has since. “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to 15 cubits [c. 6.5 m; 22 ft] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Ge 7:19, 20) “The end of all flesh has come before me,” Jehovah said, hence “I will wipe every existing thing that I have made off the surface of the ground.” And it was just so. “Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died . . . only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.”—Ge 6:13; 7:4, 22, 23.

Timing of the Deluge. The Deluge did not come suddenly without warning. Years of time were spent building the ark, time that Noah the “preacher of righteousness” also used in warning that wicked generation. (2Pe 2:5) Finally the time limit was up “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” The “male and female of every sort of flesh” had been brought into the ark with Noah’s family, as well as a sufficient food supply for all, and “after that Jehovah shut the door.” Then “the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11, 16) There was an incessant torrential downpour for “forty days and forty nights”; “the waters continued overwhelming the earth” a hundred and fifty days. (Ge 7:4, 12, 24) Five months after the downpour began, the ark “came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.” (Ge 8:4) It was nearly two and a half months later before “the tops of the mountains appeared” (Ge 8:5), another three months before Noah removed the ark’s covering to see that the earth had practically drained (Ge 8:13), and nearly two months later when the door was opened and the survivors set foot on dry ground once again.—Ge 8:14-18.

Noah and his family entered the ark in the 600th year of Noah’s life, the 2nd month (October-November), the 17th day. (Ge 7:11) One year later (a year consisting of 360 days) was the 17th day, 2nd month, 601st year. Ten days after that would be the 27th day of the 2nd month, when they came out; a total of 370 days, or parts of 371 separate days, spent in the ark. (Ge 8:13, 14) In the log that Noah kept, it appears he used months of 30 days each, 12 of them equaling 360 days. In this way he avoided all the complicated fractions involved had he used strictly lunar months consisting of slightly more than 29 1/2 days. That such calculations were used in the account is evident from the fact that a five-month period consisted of 150 days.—Ge 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4.

The Floodwaters. It has been said that if all the moisture in the atmosphere were suddenly released as rain it would not amount to even a couple of inches if spread over the earth’s surface. So from what source was this vast deluge of Noah’s day? According to the Genesis account, God said to Noah: “Here I [Jehovah] am bringing the deluge [or, “heavenly ocean”; Heb., mab·bul´] of waters upon the earth.” (Ge 6:17, ftn) Describing what happened, the next chapter says: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11) So overwhelming was the Deluge that “all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered.”—Ge 7:19.

Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His almighty power could easily accomplish it.

Since, as the Genesis account says, “all the tall mountains” were covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said that “there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.” (National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover “all the tall mountains,” as the inspired record says.—Ge 7:19.

Effect on the Earth. With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust is relatively thin (estimated at between 30 km [20 mi] and 160 km [100 mi] thick), stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62.

What evidence proves that there truly was a global deluge?

Other possible evidence of a drastic change: Remains of mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth. Some of these were found in Siberian cliffs; others were preserved in Siberian and Alaskan ice. (PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 328) In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found. The fossil remains of many other animals, such as lions, tigers, bears, and elk, have been found in common strata, which may indicate that all of these were destroyed simultaneously. Some have pointed to such finds as definite physical proof of a rapid change in climate and sudden destruction caused by a universal flood. Others, however, favor explanations for the death of these animals that do not involve an earth-wide catastrophe. Proof that the Flood occurred is not dependent on such fossils and frozen animal remains.

Flood Legends. Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, Jehovah confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.—CHART, Vol. 1, p. 328.

These folklore accounts of the Deluge agree with some major features of the Biblical account: (1) a place of refuge for a few survivors, (2) an otherwise global destruction of life by water, and (3) a seed of mankind preserved. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states: “Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.

In times past, certain primitive people (in Australia, Egypt, Fiji, Society Islands, Peru, Mexico, and other places) preserved a possible remnant of these traditions about the Flood by observing in November a ‘Feast of Ancestors’ or a ‘Festival of the Dead.’ Such customs reflected a memory of the destruction caused by the Deluge. According to the book Life and Work at the Great Pyramid, the festival in Mexico was held on the 17th of November because they “had a tradition that at that time the world had been previously destroyed; and they dreaded lest a similar catastrophe would, at the end of a cycle, annihilate the human race.” (By Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Edinburgh, 1867, Vol. II, pp. 390, 391) Notes the book The Worship of the Dead: “This festival [of the dead] is . . . held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (By J. Garnier, London, 1904, p. 4) Interestingly, the Bible reports that the Flood began “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” (Ge 7:11) That “second month” corresponds to the latter part of October and the first part of November on our calendar.

Scriptural Confirmation. Stronger evidence of the historicalness of the Deluge than the pagan traditions of primitive people is the endorsement other Bible writers gave under inspiration. The only other place where the same Hebrew word (mab·bul´, deluge) occurs outside the Genesis account is in David’s melody where he describes Jehovah as seated “upon the deluge.” (Ps 29:10) However, other writers make reference to and confirm the Genesis account, as, for example, Isaiah. (Isa 54:9) Ezekiel also endorses the historicity of Noah. (Eze 14:14, 18, 20) Peter draws heavily upon the Deluge account in his letters. (1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:5; 3:5, 6) Paul testifies to the great faith Noah displayed in constructing the ark for the survival of his household. (Heb 11:7) Luke lists Noah in the lineage of Messiah’s forebears.—Lu 3:36.

Even more significant is what Jesus said about the days of the Deluge, as recorded by both Luke and Matthew. Far more than just a simple endorsement of the veracity of the Deluge account, Jesus’ words show the pictorial and prophetic significance of those ancient events. In answer to the disciples’ question, “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus said, among other things: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Mt 24:3, 37-39; Lu 17:26, 27) There is, therefore, abundant evidence from the inspired Holy Scriptures themselves to support the authenticity and genuineness of the Deluge account. It does not rest on mere traditions of men, on the folklore of primitive people, or on geologic and archaeological findings.

[Tsiangkun]

And people today said the Tsunami was punishing the non-believers.

In the old days this would have been incorporated into the bible.

That's the type of accuracy we are dealing with in these accounts. It's the most accepted explanation at the time, which is often different from the best guess at what happened.

[Moxie]

I have a belief structure based upon Evolution. That is my "faith." I have faith that even though I don't understand every stage and link involved with evolution, that it occurred and will continue to occur for the rest of time in some way or another. So I believe in something much larger than myself, and I call it "nature." Does that validate me as a person at all in your eyes, Flex? Naw, I bet I already know the answer.

Just like Jesus said,

"...if you atheists want to unite, great! More room in heaven for me."

This was the first time you've defended your beliefs in this way? You said you're done with the discussion, but maybe the next time you "defend" your beliefs, you will keep in mind: that the arguments that you are using and the disrespectful, vulgar way that you chose to carry out those arguments both insults and discredits your cause.

______________
Emily Kulczyk

“Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.” --Albert Einstein

[FlexThis]

How to Win Friends & Influence People -- by Dale Carnegie ???

Read it!

I'm not going to kiss your ass or ask you questions that interest you for the sake of winning you over as a friend.

[FlexThis]

This was the first time you've defended your beliefs in this way? You said you're done with the discussion, but maybe the next time you "defend" your beliefs, you will keep in mind: that the arguments that you are using and the disrespectful, vulgar way that you chose to carry out those arguments both insults and discredits your cause.

Great! I wasn't trying to win you over. I'm not a pushy Christian. I simply as stated refuse to respect atheism in any form. Sorry

[cd]

I'm done arguing with you people - may God have mercy on your souls, or lack thereof.

Thanks but no thanks. I'm sorry to inform that your kind are on the way out; slowly but surely history guides humanity toward the side of reason. We've still got a long way to go, but at least you people don't make human sacrifices and drink goat blood anymore (for the most part). Sooner or later people like Falwell, Muslim extremists, the KKK, and the rest of you terrorists will be a thing of the past. We won't allow the blind and those hell-bent on destrying the world to have their way.

Truth and fact are only gaining prominence around the world. At some point in mankind's future, people will succumb to reality and society as a whole will be enlightened. And we can finally have that Anarchy that you speak of, Damon. Where people realize that we can all do better if we are peaceful and cooperate. That's right, a world without hierarchy, poverty, or oppression and where people don't resort to lies and manipulation and fairy tales to avoid reality.

Of course, my righteous and condescending tone is deliberate. I'm just trying to fit in.

[comastalker]

"I only need (one) book"....

many people used to say that about "mein kampf"....


I think the way you "argument" is kinda pathetic...
I'd say that every discussion on mod (though it ain't written anywhere, but maybe that's the problem for you) is meant to be based on an inherent tolerance. Let alone the fact, that the act of "discussing" per definition implies tolerance.
I can't see why you at all join this discussion ?!
If you're not able to jump over your intolerant, fundamentalistic and dogmatic shadow, just don't JOIN the discussion.
I'd abstract my own belief to the entire group of mod-members, that "we" do not like to join in a flame war (though it ain't really one, since a "war" implies that two parties are "fighting"; it's more like
arguments <=> your degrading words against atheism).

Heaven has to be war if it's full of people like you (and our new ex-hitler-youth-homophobic pope).

[comastalker]

I'm done arguing with you people - may God have mercy on your souls, or lack thereof.

Thanks but no thanks. I'm sorry to inform that your kind are on the way out; slowly but surely history guides humanity toward the side of reason. We've still got a long way to go, but at least you people don't make human sacrifices and drink goat blood anymore (for the most part). Sooner or later people like Falwell, Muslim extremists, the KKK, and the rest of you terrorists will be a thing of the past. We won't allow the blind and those hell-bent on destrying the world to have their way.

Truth and fact are only gaining prominence around the world. At some point in mankind's future, people will succumb to reality and society as a whole will be enlightened. And we can finally have that Anarchy that you speak of, Damon. Where people realize that we can all do better if we are peaceful and cooperate. That's right, a world without hierarchy, poverty, or oppression and where people don't resort to lies and manipulation and fairy tales to avoid reality.

Of course, my righteous and condescending tone is deliberate. I'm just trying to fit in.

nothing to add (though I don't believe he does know what Anarchy at least means)

[Tsiangkun]

Anarchy:

a power structure where positions of powere are yielded out of respect due to anothers skill set and abilities, and not imposed upon a society. Anarchy doesn't have a set pyramid scheme, and will form whatever power structures are necessary to accomplish the goals of the society. These power structures are bonded by respect and trust from individuals yielding their power to the experience and wisdom of those whome they respect as superiosr for natural reasons instead of an artificial title.

Utopia.

[delakong]

To sen:

Damn that took a long time to read!!! I had to stop alot though (phone calls, and other stupid office stuff). Alot of that isn't very logical. Alot of magic involved too. I don't think you read the page I sent to you. Mountains get smaller with time (erosion) not bigger, that was one of the main things that show that the people that wrote that theory are incorrect. It was looooonng, so I can't remember all the parts that I wanted to bring to your attention. Just read all that page. It's alot more logical.

[Tsiangkun]

Being atheist is completely the opposite of being an egotist. In fact it means you have to understand that you are no more important than anybody else - your life is no more valuable or special than anything else. On the other hand - your religion teaches you that people have those beliefs are better than those that don't, that the whole universe revolves around humanity and that other life forms are insignificant in the course of our planet. Atheism is not ignorant – in fact it is taking into account the evidence and making a judgment on what we personally see - rather than what other people tell us we should see. Ignorance is believing in fairy tales...

something like that was what I was going to write.
--
Intolerance is the last defense of the insecure.

[Blackjack]

The world is motivated by greed, its innate, the same primitive desires that made caveman #1 want more meat than caveman# 2 still occurs today... male competition, machismo, testosterone.. whatever you want to call it... has been and will be the downfall of western civilization.

Mind you, competition breeds intelligence and makes way for new discoveries but what good are all these thing if we cannot maintain our own selves. Its like a bunch of monkeys jumping on each others backs, climbing taller and taller to reach a better banana tree (unsatisfied with the food they have now) and they keep climbing higher and falling, finally toppling over with nothing to show but one single banana. Then they spend the rest of the time fighting over who gets the banana. Meanwhile their young are starving, their old are dying, and they themselves gone mad with new banana fever.

Unless this one banana provides universal solutions to all of mankinds problems and brings about world peace it isnt worth it!!!

[delakong]

The world is motivated by greed, its innate, the same primitive desires that made caveman #1 want more meat than caveman# 2 still occurs today... male competition, machismo, testosterone.. whatever you want to call it... has been and will be the downfall of western civilization.

Mind you, competition breeds intelligence and makes way for new discoveries but what good are all these thing if we cannot maintain our own selves. Its like a bunch of monkeys jumping on each others backs, climbing taller and taller to reach a better banana tree (unsatisfied with the food they have now) and they keep climbing higher and falling, finally toppling over with nothing to show but one single banana. Then they spend the rest of the time fighting over who gets the banana. Meanwhile their young are starving, their old are dying, and they themselves gone mad with new banana fever.

Unless this one banana provides universal solutions to all of mankinds problems and brings about world peace it isnt worth it!!!

I really don't understand the point of your post. I didn't think we were talking about western civilization. And why would the monkeys climb on each others backs? A monkey would just climb the tree.

[FlexThis]

Someone mentioned, why I post at all if I don't like it.

You know what? You're right!

Why am I wasting my time with a bunch of atheists anyways.

~see ya round

P.S. I use homophobic language.

[Tsiangkun]

Why am I wasting my time with a bunch of atheists anyways.

Intolerance is the last defense of the insecure.

Are you wrestling with some issues flex, need to talk about it ? Anothers beliefs has absolutely no affect on your life, and yet you feel the need to lash out at the athiest. You wouldn't have even known who the atheist were, except you attacked us. We kept it civil until you put us in with the terrorists.

I've said it before and I'll say it again here. I know of christian terrorists, muslim terrorists, buddhist terrorists, hindu terrorists, and corporate terrorists. I don't know of atheist terrorist, so enlighten us.

[comastalker]

yielding their power to the experience and wisdom of those whome they respect as superiosr for natural reasons instead of an artificial title.

sorry, but that's wrong. Read Hobbes and Platon for more theory on that issue.

you could have just said : the "ideological absense of hierarchies"

well, I wanted flex to answer that but that doesn't matter anymore, since someone heard my voice and left this discussion.

truetopia.




Edit: Don't ask me why I didn't write "that" but "said"

[Blackjack]

your focusing on the trivial details of the analogy...suppose there is no other way to get the banana but to all cooperate...
i'm focusing more on the evolution of mankind, the primevil that resides in every human whether they realize or not...
but mankind also has uncanny empathy for human suffering, the average person believes unnecessary suffering to be wrong
but then again people must die, the theory of evolution find the fittest creatures surviving while all others die, unable to adapt to a changing environment
so the question is are we supposed to advance and let those who cant hang DIE? or should we advance in the direction of saving all the people we can? with hopes that all the people saved will help make this world a better place...
war, disease, human err are all means of keeping down population...some may be caused by stressors in our environment, some we creat ourselved, bottom line is they get the job done and keep the homeostasis of the world... in terms of the ratio of "number of people/ natural resources to sustain them"
the government is fully aware of this and it looms in their minds at all times, except when the $ almighty dollar $ takes over and clouds their judgment

[delakong]

your focusing on the trivial details of the analogy...suppose there is no other way to get the banana but to all cooperate...

I understood what you were talking about. The climbing thing was just a joke. I thought the " " gave it away.