Worlds 2008 final routines

Footbag videos and footbag related videos such as takraw, freestyle soccer, etc.
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy » 19 Aug 2008 03:59

Wiktor wrote:Between Vasek and Damian was 5 ranking points difference,
so i wasn`t that close.

I guess many of you just know routines from videos. Please respect judges. Its hard work.

I would be nice to see your real names, guys. Noone has real name signature ! I dont even know who can i argue with...

It seems, that many of you are not satisfied with top players in the world nowadays. We all know Ryan was exellent, but he stopped.

Can you change it? - Play better, go to tournament, win. Sounds easy.
The fact that it wasn't close in results, given the debate, does that demonstrate that Damian was a lot better, or does it demonstrate that the judges did a poor job?


I think it's really important to note the difference between respect and disagreement. Let's imagine for a second that we live in a hypothetical world which is identical to our world except we know for a fact that the judges really did make a mistake and that Sergey or Vasek should have won. What can those of us in this hypothetical world who know the truth do about it, to try to make sure the same mistake doesn't happen again? Should we, as you suggest, "respect the judges" by not voicing our disagreement with their decision? If we do that, how will that prevent the mistake from occurring again?

The point I'm making is that if people really do believe that the judges made a mistake, it makes complete logical sense for them to voice that opinion, and indeed regardless of whether the judges made the right decision or not, it is far better for the advancement and credibility of the sport if people do feel completely free and open to voice their disagreements. If they made the right decision, it should be easy for people to put forward rational explanations of why their decisions were correct and those explanations should convince people.


Instead we've seen no logical or rational arguments explaining why Damian's routine was the best. All we've seen is arguments from authority and subtle ad hominem attacks against the people disagreeing with the judges. I would say that arguments from authority and personal attacks are much less respectful than a rational and logical argument about the actual routines and the actual decisions.

We now know that Jorden and Honza think they know more about footbag than anybody else, and they don't think it's worth their time to explain what that knowledge is. We know that Jana thinks that Ales, Steve and Ianek are infallible and can't possibly make mistakes. We know that Wiktor thinks that people shouldn't voice their opinions if they're negative. We don't know why the judges made their decision. We don't know why people who think Damian should have won think that. We don't know why the arguments put forward opposing the decision are incorrect.

If Damian really should have won, then answering all those questions is clearly in the benefit of footbag, because then lots more people will understand the competition. If the judges really did make a mistake then knowing that as well is clearly also in the best interests of footbag, because then people will be more aware of how routines should be judged.


Either way the only way a negative outcome can result from this debate is if people like Honza, Jorden, Jana and Wiktor etc. continue on with their logical fallacies and their avoidance of actually addressing the routines and the rational of the decisions.

- Jeremy O'Wheel

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Post by Ian Brill » 19 Aug 2008 04:01

I am really glad you brought these out. Thank you.

I think I know what is bugging me out the decision. And it's not the chosen winner, necessarily. If shred level is the most important I would see it as Twister, Sergey, Vasek. If Choreography was the most important I would see as Sergey, Twister, Vasek. This is not taking into consideration Twister's drop. The drop puts Sergey as number one for me with the number two spot leaning towards Twister.

So I see things very differently and I am curious why.

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Post by mattbeall » 19 Aug 2008 06:09

OK, this is definitely a semi-outsider perspective, so take it with a grain of salt. I've only been introduced to the workings of freestlye competition in the past year, and I'm not overly interested in it, but I'm at work and bored so...

I completely agree with the previously mentioned (yet surprisingly unsupported) statement that dropping should be a major blow to your routine score. I don't think you should be world champion if you cannot complete a two minute routine without dropping. Ice skaters lose when they fall. Gymnasts lose when they fall.

In the past few months I have been pretty surprised to be introduced to the word "dropless" as it relates to routines. To me, the most integral part of a routine should be clearly demonstrating a mastery of what you are performing. A noticable bail damages your routine, and should result in a lower score. A drop completely halts your routine, forcing you to restart; it seems obvious to me that this seriously damages the integrity of a routine as it proves that you have not mastered your choreographed performance. Can't do your routine without drops? You need to either practice it more, scale down the difficulty to match your level of mastery, or work on your nerves.

Honestly, I think that barring some very peculiar circumstances, dropping should impact your score to the point of not placing. A less impressive, yet perfectly executed routine should almost always beat out a more impressive but fundamentally flawed routine. There are times when the discrepancies would be such that this would be overturned of course, but I think it should be a very very rare thing that takes an absolutely crushing routine besides the drop. I mean crushing too; like five nemesis' back to back or something, haha.

To be even more honest, it seems that most of the problems and arguments expressed in this thread are simply a result of footbag being disorganized as a sport. Does the IFPA or some organization have a standardized rule book? If so, shouldn't all the questions and details of this discussion be worked out and set in stone in that bad boy so that subsequent competitions can follow along accordingly and work more efficiently and understandably?

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Post by Moglum » 19 Aug 2008 07:12

I wonder what is the point of this whole discussion?

Change the results of Worlds? - Won't happen
Decide and agree who should have won? - Won't happen
Agree on what a perfect routine is? - Won't happen
Analyze every judge and why he judged the way he did? - Won't happen

I know how easy is to voice your opinion on a forum like this, but does it have any real sense apart from killing time and trying to outsmart the others?

If you really are interested why the judges gave the scores they gave, why don't you write them an email and ask them? The names are not secret, same as the scores.

Just understand that the judges don't have cameras, no slow-motion, no repeating. Just 8 live routines shortly after each other. There is no time to list each and every trick. Or to watch it over and over to see how it goes with the music. This is the reason why we had 6 judges, to reduce the chance of a "bad" judgment on the actual result. And even so there is no way to tell: he judged wrong!

I have to stand up for the judges, yet again. Understand that it is a very ungrateful role. They willingly and for free give up their spare time, which could be spent shredding, partying or doing hundreds of more pleasant things, and volunteer to judge at events. They attend judging clinics and they try to give as professional and consistent scores as possible. (Not objective, there is nothing like an objective score) Strange that internet forums are full of experts, but the people who actually judge at events are still the same few and they usually don't feel the need to hypothetically debate about judging and prefer to actually go and do it for real. Think about it..

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Post by Ian Brill » 19 Aug 2008 07:56

Moglum wrote:I wonder what is the point of this whole discussion?

Change the results of Worlds? - Won't happen
Decide and agree who should have won? - Won't happen
Agree on what a perfect routine is? - Won't happen
Analyze every judge and why he judged the way he did? - Won't happen

I know how easy is to voice your opinion on a forum like this, but does it have any real sense apart from killing time and trying to outsmart the others?

If you really are interested why the judges gave the scores they gave, why don't you write them an email and ask them? The names are not secret, same as the scores...
For someone so critical of negative, "typical", internet behavior I find it unfortunate that you seem to be participating in such behavior to an apparent extent. You are making assumptions regarding our intent where there is no reason to merit such assumptions. You then go to evaluate our behavior based on the assumed intent of these assumptions. (Please refer to Jeremy's links regarding logical phallicies.)

While it is reasonable for me to voice my preference for one contender over the other, I did not say that I wanted a rejudgement. An explanation would be nice, though I would not go by means of this thread to request such a thing. Would you? I am not sure how you got that idea. I myslelf am just talking about something of interest to mutual others. I think that is what we are all doing. Perhaps at some point I will send an email, though I don't think that will happen.

I find it alarming how defensive some people are being. This is a sport that we all care deeply about and communicating our ideas is one of the most valuable ways of improving things.
Moglum wrote:Just understand that the judges don't have cameras, no slow-motion, no repeating. Just 8 live routines shortly after each other. There is no time to list each and every trick. Or to watch it over and over to see how it goes with the music. This is the reason why we had 6 judges, to reduce the chance of a "bad" judgment on the actual result. And even so there is no way to tell: he judged wrong!
I think that this lack of video is an oversight, and demands discussion, though you are entitled to your opinion that we are not entitled to opinions.
Again, if there is defensiveness on behalf of judges or event runners, or if other general community members want us to stop talking about this they are entitled to their opinions, but I can't remember the last time that a reasonable discussion that many people seem interested in was better off silenced. When tools are available to improve the standards of an operation it is a matter of respect for the procedure to have them implemented.

The fact that there are 8 judges does little to replace the role of a camera. I will not go so far as to claim that either are mutually exclusive, as you seem to infer, but both play radically different roles.

There was a recent event in the Olympics, for Gymnastics, where computers were used to solve through the rounds of calculations the outcome. And still people are bickering. Similarly there was the event where Phelps won by one hundredth of a second. There is nothing wrong with taking things seriously. There is something wrong with not treating things that you find important seriously. It's a rather supine state of being that I would not expect from a free-willed participator of this community-driven, underground sport.

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Post by SergeyKozlov » 19 Aug 2008 08:58

I really did't want to post here again, but if Honza did then fine,
so here it is:

- Damian did't move on the play area, that all the judges and organizers are seriously recommend to do, and he was facing to one direction all the time. This is actually a biggest "-". this did't let him to win the comp (my opinion)

- Second "-" is his drop for sure. Back in 2006 (for example) when all top3 routines were droplles

- We had 2 polish judges there, witch in my opinion should't be done, cuz we need hardly Objective and Independent ones, and those who against any footbag and players relationships, witch can't be done as far as footbag is small non commercial sport

- That's why we should have circles as a main desciplene, cuz you really can see who is good, and who is not, without that complicated shit, that we have in routines, witch even judges can't understand.
I mean routines came from 80's when players just can't compete in other way, but now shredding is what we actually do, what we are practicing every day, not that "dancing" with stupid music, who sad that we should compete like that now?

- I'm really satisfied with ranking, cuz before finals i was about to scratch myself, cuz i really do not like routines and they means nothing to me. So i do not actually talk a thing about judging and placing stuff now

- I agree that you guys have a useless talk here on modified, cuz it's just funny sometimes. To make footbag more cooler there is only way - to close modified, and any other footbag forum, and have only one official footbag site with all Necessary information about every thing in footbag. And we will rid of this stupid talks, that actually can't change nothing, but making players to waste their time and become angrier. You all know for sure, that ONLINE communication is bullshit. Now think about it, and go shred hard. Footbag is not modified.in

on taht point i'm glad we have BAP, with all respect to players, and we against the competitions and don't care about judging

Sergey
Last edited by SergeyKozlov on 19 Aug 2008 10:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Paulsator » 19 Aug 2008 09:02

all you crazy routine experts.
please.
shut up and listen to Vojta!
Or come to next years worlds or any big tourney, play a dropless routine and or/judge the open freestyle finals. then we talk again.
this discussion is not even hilarious any more. many of you are just annoying.
go get a life.

edit: my post was not in response to sergeys but to the talking before. and also sorry, why dont i even bother to answer? modified sucks and has sucked for a long time....its not like its really any important to the real shredders and organizers out there who fucking work hard to make this sport better...
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Post by TheLast » 19 Aug 2008 09:47

SergeyKozlov wrote:- That's why we should have circles as a main desciplene, cuz you really can see who is good, and who is not, without that complicated shit, that we have in routines, witch even judges can't understand.
I mean routines came from 80's when players just can't compete in other way, but now shredding is what we actually do, what we are practicing every day, not that "dancing" with stupid music, who sad that we should compete like that now?

word.
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Post by Ian Brill » 19 Aug 2008 09:59

Hi. Some of us have down time at jobs and contribute from them. This has been a particularly slow week. Also, I did just practice on my lunch break and I am still sweaty.

I would like to add that I contribute my share to the sport. I have demonstrated the sport on local television, teach children through a public, non-profit organization (occaisionally), have participated in the organization of at least one event, and have been known to contribute great lengths of time for graphic design work, virtually free of charge.
The last tournament I traveled a total 16 hours in total, and spent aproximately half of the one day tournament judging. Often when I am not kicking or doing other life-fulfilling activities I am patiently teaching new talent.

Given the above information I feel entitled to have a conversation about something I have actively participated in for half my life. That's 15 years. And when my knees are blown and I can't play the sport anymore I may have something to say then as well.

My understanding is that at least two of the other people participating in this thread (and I am sure there are more) have done perhaps more than myself for this sport and have more than the right to communicate about it.

Finally: While it may bother some that people are talking about all of this, my memory tells me that the only people acting innapropriately (wild accusations, cursing, generalizing, ranking on forums) are people criticizing the thread. What's up with that? It's just a conversation.

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Post by Piechu » 19 Aug 2008 10:24

SergeyKozlov wrote:- That's why we should have circles as a main desciplene, cuz you really can see who is good, and who is not, without that complicated shit, that we have in routines, witch even judges can't understand.
I mean routines came from 80's when players just can't compete in other way, but now shredding is what we actually do, what we are practicing every day, not that "dancing" with stupid music, who sad that we should compete like that now? Sergey
it will be a natural death for footbag champs. for me.

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thoughts on the finals

Post by Senor Grommet » 19 Aug 2008 10:49

I think that we all, especially those of you who were not there, need to respect the judges. they were there in that room with the best views of the routines and they experienced the heightened emotion/ hype generated by the performances and you didn't. there was a very experienced panel of judges. It would be nice to see their scores, maybe with some explanation, to see how their decisions were arrived at, but I am fine with the decisions they made.

when I watched the 3 finals routines in question, Damian's, vasek's, and Sergey's, here is what was going through my mind

Vasek
-hmm, his routine has not wowed me as in year's past
-He did not surely 'win' this event, left it in the hands of the judges
-where was his trademark increased level of difficulty as compared to the others?
-I got tired of the 5 segments
-It looked like Vasek was a bit shaky throughout

Sergey's routine was Very well executed, had no drops, and was infused with difficulty, but he went first. I dont think that anyone who has ever gone first in a finals has ever won, and it held true again this year. Although I am not sure, I believe the judges may have scored his routine differently had he been second or third to last in the order of competitors.

I gave Damian's routine a standing ovation, as did most of the crowd. everyone loved it, it was strong throughout. Had good difficulty and very little crap filler. He owned his music. He did well enough so that the judges had to measure his performance against vasek's, and I think that they gave it to him even with one drop because vasek's routine was basically a let down. No disrespect to him, I just think we all expected a bit more from him.
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Post by Paulsator » 19 Aug 2008 11:07

word
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Post by CIC flurry » 19 Aug 2008 11:29

Discussion always needs to happen. We're still in a relatively new sport and the way we judge is evolving.

I'd like to throw in here, lots of people no longer think that routines are the main event that decides who's the best in the world, but they think other people do. Let's do ourselves a favor and consider it one of the events at the tournament. Like the Olympics where they have all those different events for sports, and people can win medals in each one.

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Post by Sora » 19 Aug 2008 11:34

Looks like evreyone is unhappy for some reason with the results...

Maybe this means something about this results.



I think Sergey you have reason about the rutines. In my opinion, when circles apered I thought: Damm, now you can see a lot, A LOT of good shred and see who is better, because everyone plays a lot and they can risk when they want. This not happen in rutines. The only think that makes Vaska special in lasts years rutines was that he plays like a normal shred in rutines and you can say that he don't risk because he can do anything. Not this year...

Anyway, rutines are still important, but don't really shows the true level of the players.

And I think that circles... maybe.

just my opinion, I don't like the bad humor is making this post, but maybe we need to talk about what are footbag chapinoships now.
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Post by Ian Brill » 19 Aug 2008 11:51

Sora wrote:...I don't like the bad humor...maybe we need to talk about what are footbag chapinoships now.
It can never hurt to discuss this sort of thing. I believe this is the nature behind my interest in this thread.

2 things to add:

1) I was saddened to hear that Vasek did not compete circle because his game last year was just about the most impressive footage I have seen on video. It made me feel that he was the world champion more so than his routine.

2) I like routines as the deciding factor, as they give the challenger more creative freedom. There is no specific rule for how to perform footbag, so this seems like the fairest way of rewarding mastery, innovation, evolving and show-casing the sport and the individual.

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Post by FlexThis » 19 Aug 2008 12:11

1.) I was saddened that a lot of good players did not make it to worlds.
2.) I was saddened that Vasek did not compete in Circle as well.
3.) I was stoked to see Sergey bustin' in Circle comp regardless.

This is not the first time a worlds has sparked controversy. [Here I go again, bringing up OLD shit]

In 1999 Ryan Mulroney clearly dominated worlds in EVERY aspect. He lost routines based on a drop, despite the fact that his routine was clearly superior to Davidson's. Judges caught flack (2 in particular) for their decisions, but it wasn't really the judges fault. The same arguments were flying around then as well. Drops vs. No drops vs. difficulty vs. artistic expression.

Here we are 9 years later and still bitchin' over routine shit. Maybe it is the contest and not the contestants that we truly disagree upon.
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Post by mikeanello » 19 Aug 2008 13:09

Thank you for sharing these videos. Everyone played very well. I wish I could have been there and these videos give me a window into what it was like.

Peace.
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Post by Faco » 19 Aug 2008 14:58

Much has been said about this, so let me tell you how the routines affected me personally, as I was watching them live, just a few meters away.

Sergey put on a great show and demonstrated great confidence and skill. He actually performed and watching him really made me feel like when you pay for a movie ticket and are not disappointed by the flick.
He also did not drop and had a great selection of the song.

Then came Damian. Let me just clarify that I can only dream to someday shred like him (style and trick wise). He is one of the best players right now and I enjoy watching him shred.
However, when players perform, they are judged by that performance. And his performance was boring (there, I've said it). You can throw all of his technical merit into my face or his incredibly smooth shuffling. You can scream all you want how he memorized every trick and executed it flawlessly. His performance simply did not wowed me.
Also, he dropped.

Vasek was last and maybe that (combined with his fame) is part of the reason why I think his routine was the best. But let me tell you, when he performed, I could not see or hear anything else. I even forgot to examine how much muscle weight he gained. When people look at the performance now on a video, they can analyze it all they want and say how he "looked shaky" or "had low difficulty" or "missed his cues", whatever. For me, THAT was THE performance. The one that MUST be in the end. And the one that should win.
He also did not drop.

On a side note, I have nothing but respect for the judges who indeed had a nightmare at this year's finals. However, if I feel that they made a mistake, I believe that I have every right to say that (on a forum or otherwise).
True, we wont change anything by bitching here, but not talking about it would seem even more wrong.

I am certain that an official explanation by Steve or Ales would satisfy most of us.
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Post by Jeremy » 19 Aug 2008 17:01

I think it's important to note that given there were 5 ranking points difference and 6 judges, it's probably that at least 2 of the judges (and possibly 3) did not rank Damian first, so I don't think explanations from particular judges is meaningful. Nor should this be about targeting and blaming the particular judges that did rank Damian first. I absolutely accept their decision and would completely oppose changing it.

Of course there are a number of issues and despite those the opinions of those that don't think discussing things is helpful, I think working out what those issues are is very important for footbag.

If the pro-Damian people and prepared to actually put forward their opinions, then I don't think the debate about which routine was best can go much further. Having reviewed the videos a few times I think it was very close between Sergey and Vasek. I might even lean slightly towards Sergey, as he probably had better variety than anybody else, strong choreography and high difficulty. Unfortunately the technical peak of his routine was at the start so by the end of the routine this is less in anybodies mind.



I think the main issue I've taken from the debate is this;


There is clearly no consensus within the footbag community about what routines should be judged on and how to quantify the skill level of a routine.

Despite the comments by a number of people, the rules used for judging routines (which I don't think are publicly published anywhere due to not yet being approved by the IFC) do not answer this question at all. Here is the relevant draft section;
505.02. Judging formats:

505.02.01 . Artistic Technical Voting Format:

505.02.01.01. Judges:
A panel of judges evaluates each routine. Each judge shall be
independent of the other judges and shall not discuss decisions until
after the results have been submitted. The desired amount of judges is
4 to 6. It is advised that judges are experienced with the system and
with freestyle footbag. Judges are not allowed to compete in the pool
or final that they are judging and it is recommend that they do not
compete in the event if possible.

505.02.01.02. Judging Aids:
A panel of judging aids shall assist the judges if desired. This shall
comprise of the following:

a) Runner: relay information and results between the judges and the
appropriate people.
b) Time keeper: record the time taken for the routine
c) Drop counter: record the number of drops compiled in the routine
d) Add counter: record the total amount of adds compiled in the routine
e) Contact counter: record and total the amount of contacts in the routine

If capable – it is allowed for aids to fill more than one positions.
Aids are not allowed to compete in the pool or final that they are
involved with and it is recommended that they do not compete in the
event if possible.



505.02.01.03. Judging Scores:
The judges shall judge the routines based on two criteria:

a) Technical Merit:

Technical merit refers the difficulty of the tricks and combinations
performed by the competitor, the variety of tricks and combinations
demonstrated, the execution of moves and combinations and the general
form demonstrated.

b) Artistic Merit:
Artistic Merit refers to artistic variety of the tricks and
combinations performed by the competitor, the relationship between the
competitor and the music, including the timing of moves and music, the
rhythm of the routine, choreography, the start and finish of the
routine, the use of space, time, environment and music, the
competitor's appeal to the audience, the artistic impression,
including style and originality and the overall impression of the
routine.


Each judge shall award a score from 0 to 6 for each criteria taking
into account the following guidelines:

a) Technical merit:
0.0 = extremely poor
1.0 = poor
2.0 = weak
3.0 = reasonable
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = perfect

b) Artistic merit:
0.0 = extremely poor
1.0 = poor
2.0 = weak
3.0 = reasonable
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = perfect

Note that judges can award scores of any decimal place that they feel
is necessary although are expected to show common sense.

505.02.01.04. Ranking Players:
Each player shall be ranked on each individual criterion with the
player receiving the highest score for the criterion being placed in
first position etc. by each individual judge. The rank position given
by each judge will then be totalled together to give each player a
final score. Players are then ranked from lowest score to highest
score. The player with the lowest score is awarded first place.

In the result of a tie the individual judging ranks are analysed and
the player with the highest quantity of ranks at the lowest value of
the tied player shall be awarded the higher finish of the tied
players. Players with identical rank scores shall be mutually be
awarded the position.
As you can see, there is no mention of drops and just some very broad definitions.

My vision when I took on the task of updating the rules was to begin with simply having the rules reflect the actual rules used in competitions without putting in any of my personal opinions (which I thought would be an easy task, but took 2 years before I gave up), and then to make them far more specific so that no interpretation of the rules would be necessary.

Clearly this still needs to happen and regardless of whether the results at this years worlds are correct or not, the fact that so many people disagree with the decisions made shows how necessary it is to clarify the rules and to be more specific.

Regardless of how people feel, the opinion that the judges did or did not make a mistake is subjective. It depends completely on unwritten expectations of what a good routine is, and what the significance of drops are in a routine. What we need to aim for is a set of rules where you can look at these routines and have a clear understanding of why each person finished in the position they did, and can make an objective decision about whether the judges made the right decision or not.


The other issue, which I think comes up every world championships, is the issue of transparency in judging. In most sports and subjectively judged competitions the judges put out short reports on each performance explaining their score. I know judging is hard work with little reward but I think people judging need to be people who want to see the best results possible, and I don't think writing up 50 to 100 words on each performance is asking a lot. If you think it is, just be glad you don't judge school eistedfords where you not only have to sit through 4 to 10 hours of kids trying to play music every day for 2 weeks, but also have to write up justifications for every score you give, and you do it as a volunteer.

Sorry to sound a little corporate but instead of saying; "this is too hard," we should be saying; "what would a perfect system be? What can we do to move towards that?" Of course we can't achieve perfection, but we can certainly move closer and closer towards it - but only if we have open discussions and always aim to improve.

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Blue_turnip
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Post by Blue_turnip » 19 Aug 2008 18:46

Jeremy wrote:So the 1 drop routine was "flawless..."


Also just a pro tip for internetz people. Text doesn't have a tone, and as soon as you try to interpret how the person was feeling when they wrote their post your walking down the path to meaningless debate. It is also never relevant to a discussion, what a person's "tone" was.
I never said the routine was flawless, I was referring specifically to the timing in the choreography.
Oliver Adams

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