Two Pdx adds in one trick?

B_Man · Post by **B_Man** » 30 Oct 2004 23:33

Is it possible? Can one trick get two pdx components? I'm not sure where to stand on this issue - it seems debateable but at the same time I think it's completely possible. And besides, I've never seen a single trick with two pdx components so I'm curious

For instance - Nuke Marious:

Clip > Same out > backspin > Same in > Frontspin > Op Clip

Both the set (Nuke) and trick (Marious) include pdx, but when put together does it get two pdx adds?

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 31 Oct 2004 01:47

Yes.
More possible would be Nuclear Spinning Pdx Mirage though.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 31 Oct 2004 02:34

I don't think so.

1. As I know there can be only one paradox add in one trick, no matter how many pdx components are there.

2. In your example Nuclear isn't Paradox. It isn't Paradox because with back spin after it isn't full dex - only full dexes can be considered paradox.

3. We have X-dex for this... IT is obviously that first paradox dexterity must be full dex, and if the second should be considered paradox the it must be full dex too. And this way - Nuclear Inspinning ss Mirage (Clip > Same Out > (front) Spin > Same In > Op Toe would be a paradox move - but not x-dex one. And Nuclear Inspinning Oposite os Mirage (Clip > Same Out > (front) Spin > Op In > Op Toe) is a Paradox move (nuclear set, then inspin) and a x-dex move (first dex is full because it is paradox, and the second dex is full because without the first dex it can be considered paradox, and if it is full than it his the 2nd full dex, and it's x-dex).

I'm right in what I wrote here? I think that I'm.

Best Wishes
Pawel

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 31 Oct 2004 03:37

Right...
OK - I can understand why you think that Nuclear Spinning shouldn't get paradox. I disagree because it is indeed a full dex!
--- How about Quasi Spinning/Nuclear Inspinning Pdx Torque? Is there enough twist?
Then - why couldn't a move get two pdx adds?
And - X-dex and Paradox are way different concepts and it's wrong to say anything like "We have x-dex for covering the second pdx-styled component in the move."

Do you mean with "Nuclear inspinning ss Mirage" really "Nuclear Ingyro Mirage"? And with "Op Mirage" you ment "Far Mirage"?
Nuclear Inspinning Mirage would got two Pdx Adds and two X-dex adds.
Clip > Op out (pdx) > front spin (x-dex) > Op In (pdx) (x-dex) > Op Toe
There are two full dexes and two pdx dexes. Inspinning gives also x-dex.
The componets are Pdx Dex, Inspin (x-dex), Pdx Dex (x-dex) and Delay.
That would make the trick 8adds... maybe I'll skool it for the next Shred30 competition I'm going to

lol...

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 31 Oct 2004 04:24

Anssi - that what ar you saing isn't right.

1st - Inspinning doesn't get x-dex because that isn't DEXTERITY. It can get x-sping, but to inspinn you need 2 full spins.

2nd - Nuclear Spinning isn't full dex - and I'm 100% sure about that. The bag fly only once behind the leg - never in front of...

3rd - I think that only one pdx ad in one trick is some official "rule"

4th - x-dex is to mark some additional difficult in doing some dexes. Paradox is for this too. Do you think that Nuclear Miraging Symp Mirage shoul get two pdx? one for nuclear and one for symp mirage with this same leg? I don't think so.. It gets one pdx and two x-dex.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 31 Oct 2004 07:10

Anssi, you are really way off the mark on this one. Not to say that two paradoxes isn't possible, but your explanations and understanding of full dexes, paradox and x-dex are pretty wrong.

Spinning does not in any way contribute to x-dex. In order to have 2 x-dexes you have to have 4 dexes. For instance a Warped Eggbeater would have 2 x-dexes. Thr first 2 dexes building 1 x-dex and the second 2 dexes building 1 x-dex.

As for B-man's specific move idea. The first dex is not full. If he were to start the move from right clipper > same out the set changes the position of the bag so that it is on the left side of his body when he begins the back spin. Since the bag did not come back to the right side of the body, the dex is not full.

There is also no x-dex in this move because there is only 1 full dex (the second dex) which is also the only dex that lends itself to the paradox.

Now, I originally began thinking that two paradoxes weren't possible in any move, however seeing B-man's move had me thinking that a good argument could be made for this following move to get 2 pdxs and an x-dex.

This would be a true Nuclear Marius:
clip > op out > in spin > op in > back spin > op clip

The first dex is paradox by nature of the set and being a full dex, The second part of the move appreciably alters the placement of the bag so that a Marius (with a spin dex and paradox take place). And the two full dexes also fully cross the invisible axis to create the x-dex.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 31 Oct 2004 07:14

We really need to get rid of paradox and x-dex. There's nothing more
confusing in our sport.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 31 Oct 2004 08:31

Ebo - I think that confusing things force us to think more about concepts and rules. I think that it's good thing.

Splint - hmm... The truth is placed in the middle? And what with Nuclear Miraging symp mirage? Do you think that move like this one can be "double paradox"? Compare it to something like Bubba Miraging Symp Mirage ...

Ps. Brad, I think that to build 2 x-dex 4 dexes are'nt necessary. There can be 3 dexes too.. look at something like Atomic downtime Omlette...

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 31 Oct 2004 08:55

Pawel ---

1)Inspinning does get X-dex. I know, it sounds funny because there is no dex.
X-spin is for over 720 degree spins, like Double Spinning Osis.

2) I was talking about Nuclear Inspinning and Quasi Spinning. Both have a full dex.

3) If you think that there is a rule in add system that forbids two pdx adds in one trick then show me your recources, because I looked for it at the footbag.org but didn't find one.

4) Yes. Paradox and X-dex are both mark for additional difficoulty.
And no, I don't think that Nuclear Miraging Symp Mirage should get another pdx add. My point was that if there is a spin after pdx dex set, then a move can get two pdx adds.

Brad ---

Ok, In my first post my example about Nuclear Spinning was wrong.

I've read (or dreamed...

) somewhere that Inspinning would get X-dex. Sorry, but I can't give any material about it - if I would, I'd have to kill you

- or I can't find it...
I'm not sure if you ment this, but in Waped Eggbeater the two first dexes would give the first X-dex and the third (not the two last together) would give the second X-dex. After two full dexes every additional dex get's x-dex. And the last dex is not full after all...

You are talking about Nuclear Inspinning Pdx Torque... I agree that it would get two pdx adds, but I wouldn't call it Nuclear Marius.

Bjoern (or is it Björn?) ---

I disagree - It's fun arguing about them.

EDIT: oh, bugger. Pawel was quicker than me

... much quicker...

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 31 Oct 2004 10:11

ana_ali wrote:3) If you think that there is a rule in add system that forbids two pdx adds in one trick then show me your recources, because I looked for it at the footbag.org but didn't find one.

[...]

I've read (or dreamed... ) somewhere that Inspinning would get X-dex. Sorry, but I can't give any material about it - if I would, I'd have to kill you - or I can't find it...

Yeah... I've read (or dreamed) somwhere that there can't be two paradox in one move... But I can't find it too...

Oh.. And I see your point about two pdx adds whene there is a spin in move somewhere between dexes, but I just think that there shouldn't be the 2nd paradox... I'm not able to hit Nuclear/Quasi Inspinning/Spinning Pdx Torque/Mirage but I can't imagine the all move and I can analyse everything part of it in my head... And I just think that there shouldn't be 2 pdx in one move... This is the reason why I chose "I don't think so" in the Poll.

bob · Post by **bob** » 31 Oct 2004 12:28

if you guys were around for the old freestyle footbag email list from .org we talked about it on there one time. the same move was brought up (nuclear inspinning mirage). eventually it died down and no REAL judgement was made, but alot of us eventually agreed that yes it was possible. Lon smith set up a poll to vote on and eventually two paradox adds won. so take that as you like. i don't think it's ever been done in a comp though so it really hasn't mattered.

bob

enhancement · Post by **enhancement** » 31 Oct 2004 12:56

I am sort of new to this forum and sport, but I would say there should be like X rules made. X-Spin, X-Dex, And X-Pdx, and they should only be used since they are so confusing when there is like a draw, or like a 5 man stand off or something. I don't really understand all of this X stuff. I have heard people saying that now that this is around a 10 add move is possible, it really defies the point of achievement by adding a new category then adding a new component.
I would say that it is infact possible to have to paradox adds in my opinion, although I am pretty stupid sometimes. So I would stand and say that X-rules should be like a seperate scoring system for serious elite competition or something. A move like a nuclear marius would score double paradox I think? I am not sure if this fits in but its just an idea

Cod · Post by **Cod** » 31 Oct 2004 15:43

ptaku wrote:Yeah... I've read (or dreamed) somwhere that there can't be two paradox in one move... But I can't find it too...

There was an information that one move can have only one pdx add in footbag.org's Paradox definition. I remember it well. But now, this definition is updated.

So, yes, it's possible that one move can have more than one pdx add.

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 31 Oct 2004 15:48

i would think that any paradox-ish add after the first paradox would fall under x-dex, and not paradox. therefore allowing only 1 paradox, right?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Oct 2004 16:19

I think nuclear inspinning pdx mirage would get 2 pdx adds and an x dex and an x spin.

so [dex][pdx][xspin][spin][dex][xdex][pdx][del] - 8 adds. That sounds about right for the difficulty of the move. nuke inspin marius would be 10

enhancement · Post by **enhancement** » 31 Oct 2004 17:18

I would still think that inventing new points sort of doesnt improve the sports difficulty but just improving the rules for the players who take part. Getting a 10 add move would be better without X rules then with the original system.

Cod · Post by **Cod** » 01 Nov 2004 00:39

Jeremy wrote:I think nuclear inspinning pdx mirage would get 2 pdx adds and an x dex and an x spin.

X-spin? It needs two full spins. Where do you see two full spins in Nuclear Inspinning Pdx Mirage?

Tuukka · Post by **Tuukka** » 01 Nov 2004 01:01

there is no x-dex. I don't know why people used it at Worlds, but.. hey at least I can't find it from official freestyle rule book and I hope it will never be there

Don't think about adds too much. no offense.

and about two paradoxes. I agree it might be possible. spin is the thing, it kind of starts the move all over. Like you first have some pdx set, like nuclear/quasi then you spin and after the spin the side has changed and move has kind of started again. Then you hit for example pdx mirage, pdx drifter on something like that.. there are two pdx movements, but hey it's just my opinion.

Cod · Post by **Cod** » 01 Nov 2004 01:11

Tuukka wrote:there is no x-dex.

There is one X-dex!

Paradox dex is always a full dex, so in move with two paradoxes we have two full dexes, so we have one X-dex. It's my opinion

.

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 01 Nov 2004 02:08

ana_ali wrote:More possible would be Nuclear Spinning Pdx Mirage though.

ana_ali wrote:OK - I can understand why you think that Nuclear Spinning shouldn't get paradox. I disagree because it is indeed a full dex!

ana_ali wrote:2) I was talking about Nuclear Inspinning and Quasi Spinning. Both have a full dex.

the two sentences ptaku commented were about nuclear spinning... in 98% of all cases, miscomunication is the reason for an argument

I think that pdx theory destroys any reliability, for sure nuclear inspinning pdx... deserves two pdx adds and a xdex, but if we deal with pdx in that way it only becomes harder (though it's hard to believe it could get any harder) :
how do you explain to a beginner the difference between pdx and xdex if you take this move as an example... they almost become identical.
I think adds aren't that important and 9 adds also are enough for a nuclear marius

modified

Two Pdx adds in one trick?

Well, is it possible?!?!?!

Two Pdx adds in one trick?