Yes he's back, Ossama's back

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 01 Nov 2004 18:15

Yeah - I know many JEWS who disagree with the ISRAELI government - just like I know many AMERICANS who disagree with the US government. I am an AUSTRALIAN but I disagree with the AUSTRALIAN government. What a government does does not always reflect what the people think. Considering the last US election - surely you know that Nathen!

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 01 Nov 2004 22:09

Jeremy wrote:I
The similarities between Bush and Osama should be pointed out. Both are heavily religious and believe that God is on their side and they are doing the work of God. Both believe that the use of violence for political reasons is an ok thing to do. Both are prepared to kill innocent civilians for their cause. .

That put a HUGE smile on my face!!!!

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 02 Nov 2004 07:25

I'm not trying to accuse Jeremy or anyone else of being a nazi.

I wanted to point out that the same anti-Israel rhetoric that is common among many westerners, is almost identical to the rhetoric we hear from nations who would love wipe Israel off the map.

At home they say, "Kill every stinking Jew pig", then in the world press,and in the U.N., they say "Israel is a terrorist nation."

Because of your insightful follow ups, I will assume that your(generic) position (IF opposing Israel) is because of a genuine belief that Israeli is at fault for the middle east crises.

-n

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 02 Nov 2004 10:26

I blame the allies who gave a holy land shared by three religions to a single state as an appeasement for horrendous genocides against their people. Israel would have been better off if the allies made better decisions with respect to indigenous peoples.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 02 Nov 2004 13:23

Nathan - if you believe that my left wing socialist/anarchist politics is at all connected to Nazism (right wing authoritarian politics) than feel free to say so - I will not take offence at all.

I don't blame Israel for the Middle East Crisis - I blame them for what is happening right now in their own country and for what happened in Lebanon.

I understand that many Jews are paranoid that anybody who criticises Israel and doesn't believe that "god promisied me this land" is a good reason to murder and torture people is being anti-semitic. But I am not being anti-semitic - I hate racism and I neither hate or like any race - I don't judge people by their race (UNLIKE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT!)

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 02 Nov 2004 23:24

Tsiangkun:

I agree that carving up the Middle East was maybe unwise back then.

I don't think giving Israel to Jews was appeasement. They were in no position of power. You appease those who you fear.

Jeremy:

Nah I don't think you are. I would say so If I thought so. If what you say sometimes sounds like an Al Qaeda's spokesman, I'll say so.

I'm not sure which Lebanon incident you are refering to, but I'll quote part of the CIA factbook (for whatever that's worth)

(...)Syria maintains about 16,000 troops in Lebanon, based mainly east of Beirut and in the Bekaa Valley. Syria's troop deployment was legitimized by the Arab League during Lebanon's civil war and in the Ta'if Accord. Damascus justifies its continued military presence in Lebanon by citing Beirut's requests and the failure of the Lebanese Government to implement all of the constitutional reforms in the Ta'if Accord. Israel's withdrawal from its security zone in southern Lebanon in May 2000, however, has emboldened some Lebanese Christians and Druze to demand that Syria withdraw its forces as well. (....)

16000 troops (if accurate) is a lot in a small area. Nobody ever complains about that occupation. Surely they have almost no justification to be oppressing the Lebanese there, conducting proxy operations against Israel.

Yeah, a lot of Jews are paranoid, yet many would and have eagerly traded land for empty promises from Arafat, followed by attacks.

So eager for peace, they make concessions while their adversary openly pledges to exterminate all of them.

Israel has many arab, and Muslim citizens. How many can vote there, I am unsure.

I think Palestinians maybe should have land of their own.

They can't be shipped off to neighboring Muslim nations, they would be machine- gunned by their "compassionate" neighbors

Arafat is a terrorist leader. No deal can be struck with him. When he is gone and stops murdering Palestinian opposition who would consider a peaceful solution, maybe an arrangement can be made.

In the interest of fighting anti-semitism and racism, any Palestinian nation cannot be allowed to have a "Nazi" society. By this , I mean that Jews cannot be murdered in the street if discovered. Jews cannot be denied the right to vote or own land.

Surely, if they were to be given land, the world should expect even basic, minimum human rights for religious minorities.

-n

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 03 Nov 2004 04:12

note the dead bodies behind the girl.

The Sabra and Chatila massacre is one of the most barbarous events in recent history. Thousands of unarmed and defenseless Palestinian refugees-- old men, women and children-- were butchered in an orgy of savage killing. On December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.

Background of the massacre

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was an outcome of the alliance between Israel and the Lebanese Phalangists. In its long-standing war against Palestinian nationalism and against the Palestine Liberation Organization, Israel found an ally in the Lebanese Phalangists. Despite the fact that Israel was itself responsible for the Palestinian exodus, the common feelings of hostility of Israel and the Phalangists to the Palestinians led to a secret alliance between them. In execution of this alliance Israel supplied the Phalangists with money, arms and equipment to fight the PLO in Lebanon.

Terror had led to the exodus of a large number of Palestinians in 1948. Therefore, the motivation for causing by similar means another exodus of Palestinians, this time from Lebanon, was a common objective of Israeli leaders, and their Phalangist allies. The massacre was not a spontaneous act of vengeance for the murder of Bashir Gemayel, but an operation planned in advance aimed at effecting a mass exodus by the Palestinians from Beirut and other parts of Lebanon. Israel’s participation in prior massacres directed against Palestinian people creates a most disturbing pattern of a political struggle carried on by means of mass terror directed at the civilians, including women, children, and the aged.

Israel moves into West Beirut

The decision to move into West Beirut was taken by Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, although it constituted a violation of the cease-fire and the agreement which governed the PLO evacuation. It was also a breach of Israel’s word to President Reagan not to enter West Beirut after the PLOs departure. On the morning of September 15, 1982 the Israel Defense Forces moved into West Beirut and completely occupied it by the following day, notwithstanding the protests of the Lebanese and US Governments. The IDF, however, did not enter the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps, but encircled and sealed them off with troops and tanks.

As to the decision for the entry of the Lebanese militiamen into the Sabra and Chatila camps, it appears from the testimony of Rafael Eitan, Israel’s Chief of Staff, before the Israeli Commission of Inquiry that it was taken by him and by Sharon on September 14, 1982. This was followed by meetings between those two military chiefs and the Phalangist commanders to coordinate the operation of the militiamen’s entry into the camps. The decision to allow the militiamen’s entry into the camps was approved by the Israeli Cabinet on September 16 after it began to be put into execution.

The Massacre

Three units of 50 militiamen each stood ready in the afternoon of Thursday, September 16, 1982 at the edge of Sabra and Chatila camps awaiting orders from the Israeli military command. At 5:00 p.m. they were sent into the refugee camps in accordance with the agreed program of action and they then commenced an orgy of killing which lasted until the morning of Saturday, September 18.

According to General Amir Drori, Commander of the Israeli Forces in Lebanon, Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan met the head of the Phalangist forces in East Beirut on Friday afternoon and congratulated the Phalangists on their smooth military operation inside the camps. At this meeting, the Phalangist leader asked for bulldozers. One or more were supplied. The bulldozers were used to dig mass graves into which were heaped the bodies of victims that filled the alleys. A number of houses were also bulldozed to cover up the bodies of the victims.

Description of the scene is given by Loren Jenkins of the Washington Post service on September 23, 1982:

“The scene at the Chatila camp when foreign observers entered Saturday morning was like a nightmare. Women wailed over the deaths of loved ones, bodies began to swell under the hot sun, and the streets were littered with thousands of spent cartridges. Houses had been dynamited and bulldozed into rubble, many with the inhabitants still inside. Groups of bodies lay before bullet-pocked walls where they appeared to have been executed. Others were strewn in alleys and streets, apparently shot as they tried to escape. Each little dirt alley through the deserted buildings, where Palestinians have lived since fleeing Palestine when Israel was created in 1948, told its own horror story.”

Ralph Schoenman and Mya Shone, two American journalists who spent six weeks in Lebanon, gave evidence before the International Commission of Inquiry and the following is an extract from their testimony:

“When we entered Sabra and Chatila on Saturday, September 18, 1982, the final day of the killing, we saw bodies everywhere. We photographed victims that had been mutilated with axes and knives. Only a few of the people we photographed had been machine-gunned. Others had their heads smashed, their eyes removed, their throats cut, skin was stripped from their bodies, limbs were severed, some people were eviscerated. The terrorists also found time to plunder Palestinian property as well as books, manuscripts and other cultural material from the Palestinian Research Center in Beirut.”

The number of victims

The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims: (a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening; (b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and (c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned. The bodies of some of them were found by the side of the roads leading to the south. Kapeliouk asserts that the number of victims may be 3,000 to 3,500, one-quarter of whom were Lebanese, while the remainder were Palestinians.

Professor Dr. Ahmad Tell, of Jordanian origin, is Dean of Zarka Private National Community College. In 1980 he received an Award of Distinction from the American Association of Colleges for Teacher Education. He is the author of several books and publications: Higher Education in Jordan , published in 1997, including Abdullah Tell, the Hero and Why Did the Arabs Fail?, both of which are currently under print. Dr. Tell also wrote a research paper about the former Prime Minister Samir Rifai and the Palestinian cause in 1997.

Aren't you fucking glad to be still be supporting people responsible for that. Note that Ariel Sharon was heavily involved and you are still supporting him. Horray more dead people with the help of the US. Good to see the US up holding the age old right to die around the world.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 03 Nov 2004 04:25

More photos because I love your country so much and anybody you support must be good.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 03 Nov 2004 12:31

wow Jeremy real insightful this time.

You're preaching to the choir.

ted · Post by **ted** » 03 Nov 2004 12:58

oof! and my spiderman pics get censored?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 03 Nov 2004 19:30

ted wrote:oof! and my spiderman pics get censored?

Yeah I'm really sorry about that Ted, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it but I don't like making moderating decisions based on my morals too much - I try to be impatial to my own opinion if that's possible.

Also the blogs and discussion topics are the most free - so if you were to post it in one of those sub forums it definitly wouldn't be censored.

Personally I think censorship sucks - but that's just my opinion and I respect other people's opinions equally - so as a moderator I was thinking - well one person thinks it's ok and one person doesn't - I thought linking it was a good compromise.