DIVISION 3 COMPETITION #1 - POLLS CLOSED! COMMENT NOW!

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 07 Nov 2004 08:40

<b> This poll is CLOSED! Feel free to comment about all the combos now. The Division 3 leaderboard will be updated shortly.

The results of the vote were as follows:</b>

Kestutis Baltakys
25% [ 18 ]

Daniel Boyle
19% [ 14 ]

Kaushik Amancherla
18% [ 13 ]

Henry Griese
16% [ 12 ]

Aaron Kirr
9% [ 7 ]

Adam Czarnata
5% [ 4 ]

Jim Jansen
5% [ 4 ]

Total Votes : 72

Videos are in order that they were received:

Henry Griese:
Smear > Dimwalk > Paradox Mirage
http://www.footbag.org/media/515/My1stsick3.wmv

Daniel Boyle:
Pixie Clipper > Ducking Osis > Butterfly
http://www.freewebs.com/daysend/DanielB ... dEntry.wmv

Kaushik Amancherla:
Dimwalk > Sidewalk > Far Osis
http://www.footbag.org/media/516/sick3.wmv

Kestutis Baltakys:
Dimwalk > Ripwalk > Paradox Mirage
http://www.footbagas.web1000.com/sick3.wmv

Aaron Kirr:
Mirage > Butterfly > Butterfly
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ph33r/sick3/sick3.avi

Adam Czarnata:
Clipper (Not part of sick 3) > Butterfly > Paradox Mirage > Dimwalk
http://www.footbag.org/media/477/atomsick3one.mpg

Jim Jansen:
Pixie Legover > Butterfly > Ripwalk
http://www.footbag.org/media/366/sick3.wmv

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 07 Nov 2004 08:54

<b> MODERATOR EDIT: No talking about specific combos until the vote is over please</b>

Also, please use a unique filename! I download all the videos to my
computer and watch them then - and there will be 3 files names sick3.wmv. It would be good if everybody would include their name in the
filename.

Couldn't watch some of those. AGAIN. We need one codec for all! mpeg-2!!

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 07 Nov 2004 09:24

ebo wrote:Also, please use a unique filename! I download all the videos to my
computer and watch them then - and there will be 3 files names sick3.wmv. It would be good if everybody would include their name in the
filename.

Couldn't watch some of those. AGAIN. We need one codec for all! mpeg-2!!

The unique filename is a good idea. That will be a rule for all folllowing competitions.

As far as whether someone is novice or intermediate, the decision was left mostly up to the players, and some from this group upon seeing the intermediate videos have said they should have been in intermediate. That's fine, they can change groups next competition.

As far as one codec ... I don't even know how to make an mpeg-2 file, and the vast majority of people seem to have either wmv or avi files. I'll think more about this and we'll try to come up with something.

HG · Post by HG » 07 Nov 2004 09:45

COMEONE AND VOTE PEOPLE

zachatree · Post by **zachatree** » 07 Nov 2004 10:45

i cant pick one, they are all so close.

HG · Post by HG » 07 Nov 2004 11:50

i dont think any of us should be in novice, looking at the intermediate sick 3's.....

but hey...

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 07 Nov 2004 11:51

Is it just me, or do some of these beat out some of the INTERMEDIATE entires?

Seriously, in my opinion, if there's a 4-add there...you're not novice.

HG · Post by HG » 07 Nov 2004 12:11

definitely kevin

im going to intermediate next time even though im not the best here... i dont really think that in sick 3s im novice, but in strings i am haha

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 07 Nov 2004 12:15

qphox wrote:Is it just me, or do some of these beat out some of the INTERMEDIATE entires?

Seriously, in my opinion, if there's a 4-add there...you're not novice.

I disagree, I don't think any of the novice combos are clearly better than the intermediate ones. They may be similar in skill to them, but not clearly better I don't think because of the bails. Every single one of these combos has a 3 add 'bail' (either butterfly, paradox mirage or osis)

I don't think 'bails' really belong in intermediate, so to me, it makes sense for these to be classified as high novice combos. A lot of these combos may have 4 adds (which we all know isn't totally indicative of difficulty), but for them to be competitive intermediate combos I think they need to not have the butterflies, osises or paradox mirages - moves that are considered 3 add bails.

You can't expect the groupings of skill to be perfect the first time. No one knew what to expect, but now they will know what to expect, and they will sign up for the proper group. I thought I did a decent job of trying to make the skill levels as even as possible, and there are a couple people who should be up, or should be down, but that will be sorted out in future competitions.

So please feel free to let your opinion be heard through your vote.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 07 Nov 2004 12:28

Aight, I suppose bails make sense.

But that said, let's say I hit Toe Drifter > Blurriest > Osis.

Is that Novice because there's a bail? If that was in this group, it would win for sure.

This isn't a shot at your categorizing at all Cole, it's just that when I think Novice, I think 2's.

Maybe this being the first roun, people weren't sure where they belonged yet. Perhaps it'll even out more along the way.

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 07 Nov 2004 12:59

qphox wrote:Aight, I suppose bails make sense.

But that said, let's say I hit Toe Drifter > Blurriest > Osis.

Is that Novice because there's a bail? If that was in this group, it would win for sure.

This isn't a shot at your categorizing at all Cole, it's just that when I think Novice, I think 2's.

Maybe this being the first roun, people weren't sure where they belonged yet. Perhaps it'll even out more along the way.

If you hit that you would be in intermediate, because the two moves that aren't considered bails are of intermediate skill level. It would be a really cool 'sick 2', but since the competition is to decide the 3 best tricks, it shouldn't rate very highly.

It's a moot point anyway as no one in this competition hit toe drifter or blurriest in their combos. They had "easy" (and I only use this term relatively) 3's and 4's grouped with their paradox mirages, osises and butterflies.

Well, you may think 2's when you think novice, but there is only one 2 add move in all of these runs. Rather than make a large intermediate group that had a big greater variety of differential in skill and experience, it makes more sense to split it into 2, so the votes will be more even. Which they are going to be as a result I believe.

As far as a shot at my grouping .. I know that's not the intent, and in reality, I only suggested a couple people change divisions, as most of the groupings were made by what people signed up for.

The groups will become better defined as time goes on.

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 07 Nov 2004 13:54

Daniel's video didn't work for me....

Edit: This was my 500 post!

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 07 Nov 2004 14:22

Uhh.. I just want to repeat what everyone else is saying.

These are ABSURD examples of "novice" sick 3's! This will be DISCOURAGING for alot of novices as they will have no chance against 3's and 4's.

Seriously, almost all of these are blatantly NOT novice.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 07 Nov 2004 14:38

Vasek's winning sick 3 - Todexon 2002 (I think)
gyro baroque>osis>ps whirl

Novice?

When I heard "novice" - I presumed combos like atw>legover>clipper. I can only see one combo that isn't sandbagging and I voted for that one.

HG · Post by HG » 07 Nov 2004 14:43

you didnt vote for me, im not sandbagging....

im using my lonn

King Monkey · Post by **King Monkey** » 07 Nov 2004 15:53

The term 'sandbagging' refers to the act of competing in a division that you know you are too skilled for, but go in it anyway because you have a good chance of winning/placing/not trying very hard.

Yeh these combos are too good for novice. Good example there Jeremy too. However these kind of teething problems should be expected in the first one or two competitions, until we see where everyone is at, what is generally expected of players in each division etc etc.
Next time we will know who is Novice and who isnt, or we could stipulate some rules for the divisions...

Posi-Cole · Post by **Posi-Cole** » 07 Nov 2004 15:54

Jeremy wrote:Vasek's winning sick 3 - Todexon 2002 (I think)
gyro baroque>osis>ps whirl

Novice?

When I heard "novice" - I presumed combos like atw>legover>clipper. I can only see one combo that isn't sandbagging and I voted for that one.

Please don't compare moves like gyro barroque and ps whirl to smear, dimwalk, pixie clipper, paradox mirage etc etc. I was merely comparing the caliber of the Novice videos to the caliber of the intermediate videos we have in this competition. It's especially odd hearing that come from you, since you in the past have told me the same thing I mentioned above, how you think sick 3's should be judged on the 3 hardest tricks.. not a sick 2 with some bail thrown in the middle.

I presumed the same thing about novice, but these are the videos I received I received.

If you think there was only one true Novice combo then what should we do? Have a poll with one option and give that person the win? Make them all intermediate videos, where, despite what people say, I don't think many of the combos here would have had a chance to win?

Fact of the matter is, by some opinions expressed here, not a lot of true novices sent in videos. What can I do about that?

I feel like everyone is getting all worked up for no good reason, and since this is my forum, I'm feeling partly responsible. If everyone could just chill, they'd realize that for one, you're missing a good vote! Whatever you want to classify these videos as, they are all pretty comparable to EACH OTHER and a good close vote is taking place.

If you want to get mad at me for not putting these combos with the intermediates, or if you want to get mad at these people for submitting combos as novice, then go ahead ... But neither of those will really be productive at all, and all we can do is make it better next time.

For everyone who complained, I'm really curious how you think it would have been best to handle this situation. Personally I think these videos are all in the same range of skill as each other, and for the reasons mentioned above I think they are all (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) not as good sick 3's as those found in intermediate. If more people had sent in combos that were ATW > Legovoer > Clipper then we could have had a "proper" novice division, but these people (who are completely innocent, since they have no idea what kind of videos people are sending in for each level) have chosen to put themselves down as novices.

Please deal with it, vote for what you want, and unless you have something constructive to say, I'd rather not hear from you.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 07 Nov 2004 16:33

I wasn't blaming you - I'm sorry if it came across like that. I also think most if not all of the people who are sandbagging were doing it innocently. Obviously it's hard to know what division you're in.

Regarding judging sick 3s. My opinion is that you should judge the combo - not the individual moves or as you put it:

It's especially odd hearing that come from you, since you in the past have told me the same thing I mentioned above, how you think sick 3's should be judged on the 3 hardest tricks.. not a sick 2 with some bail thrown in the middle.

That's true - but clearly it's just my opinion. If I was organising an event it's what how I'd instruct my judges to judge and it's how I voted. However it's just my opinion!! Just because I think it - doesn't make it right!! I think it's pretty clear from the example of Vasek that I gave that some people disagree - people with probably more sick 3 judging experience than I have. Of course I would love it if everybody judged sick 3s like I do - but I don't think it's going to happen.

My point was that creating some kind of arbitary line like "if it has a guiltless bail it's novice" doesn't work - you judge the combo on the whole combo - not one move!

You are right that probably none of those combos would win. But people shouldn't put themselves in the division where they are most likely to win! There seems to be a growing culture in footbag of competing to win. The level of the top open players is getting higher and people are feeling intimidated and not competeing where they should be. Don't judge where you should compete by the winning combo.

In the past Novice competitions have always been consecutive kicks competitions. If you could link 3 tiltless together you would be considered intermediate. I remember my first sick 3 quite well. I hit smear>dimwalk>clipper and Lynton hit alpine legbeater>blurriest>mobius. - Jeremy was PWN3D!!

Things have improved - there can be no doubt. Maybe it is important to set some rules. A guiltless combo with at least one genuine is intermediate. A combo with an add ratio over 4 is open (or a combo with fearless difficulty moves - ie flurry, ripstein etc) - that's how I would group it up.

I want to make it clear that I'm not blaming anybody. But I'm not going to vote for people who are in a division they shouldn't be in.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 07 Nov 2004 16:35

I really must say that all of these combos are or could have been novice level. For a person's SICK 3 to be dimwalk>ripwalk butterfly is fine for the novice comp. Maybe that was a VERY hard combo for him/her. Its not fair to say that because someone was able to hit a 3>4>4 for example that they are no longer novice. thats just dumb. Now, if they can hit that 3>4>4 every time they try then its a different story- its an easy combo for them, but they still could be a novice competitor.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 07 Nov 2004 16:43

I haven't thought this through at all, but would an add cap be worthwhile? Ie, if your sick 3 has 8 or more adds then it's not allowed in the novice catagory. Likewise, if your combo has 12 or move adds than it's not allowed in the intermediate competition. It'd give a definative system of measurement to players who are unsure of where they should be competing.

Of course, we could still potentially get people trying to get away with throwing stuff like a rev. swirling pickup into the novice mix, but it'd be a lot easier to single them out as sandbaggers, as it's quite obvious that they're capable of busting way more than 8 adds in a sick 3.