WHO WON THE ELECTION?!

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 05 Nov 2004 13:26

He manipulated the religous . . . but will use the election as an endorsement of his foreign policy.

The Christian moral majority will get no good from this. In fact, they are going to hell. Leveticus clearly states how the Lord feels about the poor, and endorsing this man as a leader is directly against the wishes of God.
Corinthians also informs us on the proper treatment of foreigners and the poor. Supporting the republilcan party is directly at odds with the Bible and the wishes of God. There is no doubt in my mind, Christians endorsing Bush have been fooled by Satan and will burn in hell for all eternity. You have failed God in a test of faith.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 05 Nov 2004 19:39

man, i dont really want to get into an argument, but thats insane man. do you really think God wants us supporting the democrats? the pro-choice, gay-marriage liberal democrats? or possibly just the green party...good ol' mother nature...i think her and God are in cahoots, in fact

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Nov 2004 19:53

wait! Do you really think it's ok to vote for the President based on your religious beliefs? Meaning that when he gets elected he forces your religious beliefs onto people who aren't Christians? The US is the probably the only non secular nation in the western world for the last 500 years.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 06 Nov 2004 00:12

Of course it's ok to vote for a president on religious beliefs. I don't know what else you would use to evaluate a leader. If one man goes to church, and the other has personal relationships and conversations with God, it's easy to pick. Even if the track record goes against the Bible, it's O.K. because God has told him to test us by being a miserable failure. Even though the country is in the hands of a man who readeth not, for so long as he maintains his relationship with God, we as a nation, can do no wrong. God would never lead us astray, and this is just another of the mysterious ways in which he works to punish us here so that we may enjoy the sweet fruits of heaven more after death. I'm excited to see what god has instore for us in the next four years of office. I'm hoping for disease, pestilence, and famine so I can collect and trade them with my friends.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 06 Nov 2004 08:07

(this is gonna sound really unintelligent, completely biased, and quite controversial but...) i also think it is ok to vote for a president based, at least in part, on religion. if the president has the same beliefs as you, he probably has the same stances on various issues (especially ones related to ethics and whatnot, abortion, prayer within schools, religious civil rights, etc) and he is more likely to try and implement constitutional amendments you agree with. also, people really DO kind of want their religion shoved down other peoples throats...if they think they are right, they try to convince other people one way or another, or at least try to make new laws that THEY agree with, even if not everyone does. thats kinda what democracy is all about

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 06 Nov 2004 11:04

God is no more pleased with this law making than if we had imprisioned an entire population and removed all choice from their lives. Only those who believe in God and follow his teachings on their own accord will be in the Kingdom. God tells us to love the lowest in society, not legislate them into prison or fine them into homelessness.
The world is a continual test of Faith, and by trying to pick one set of standards to live by and force them onto others, we have failed God. By declaring a set of behaviour illegal, we have passed judgement on another man.
Lets look to the book of Romans, chapter 2,

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself

ShredStylez · Post by **ShredStylez** » 06 Nov 2004 16:48

Tsiangkun: Read your bible. You are taking so many things out of context. The bible does say to reach out to the poor and needy and to welcome foriegners into your home, but the bible also establishes the uses for government and taxing people to give money to someone with 5 kids with four different women is not one of them. The bible says if a man does not work he does not eat.

I'm glad bush won, kerry has infinitly more problems.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 06 Nov 2004 17:31

I think this and the US election has been good for me because it's made me realise that I need to change my attitude to politics a bit. I have a huge and deep seeded hate for people who voted for or support Bush. Even though I can rationalise why they voted for Bush I still hate those people intensly. Just a second ago I was tempted to edit the post above mine and write some horrible insult. Luckily I didn't and clearly it's not Mark's fault - or anybody else who voted republican - for my hate - but my own and something I now realise I have to learn to deal with.

I apologise to any Republican voters. I hope I can learn to get over this hate or else we will never be friends and I will never want to kick with you. I see what Bush is doing to the world and I find it impossible to believe that anybody with the values I think are important could support him. Sorry - I will try my best to be more tolerant.

MegaFighter_X · Post by **MegaFighter_X** » 07 Nov 2004 12:45

Hate the vote, not the person. It's when they try to force their views down your throat (meaning no discussing, debating, etc.), that's when you start hating the person. I suppose we shoudl all hate each other for the reasons to vote for kerry and reasons to vote for bush threads, huh?

As long as we are kicking in a circle or what not, political stances don't matter. And if someone brings them up, hit them in the face with a chainmail bag

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 07 Nov 2004 17:07

i agree completely. almost to the point where we should just abandon this topic and thread just to facilitate cordial feelings between all the shredders, but hey, some of us enjoy a good debate, as long as no one gets to insane about it

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 08 Nov 2004 12:19

ShredStylez wrote:Tsiangkun: Read your bible.

What kind of Bible is being read by these Christians whom have voted George Bush back into the White House?

Perhaps a version of the Holy text which skips the passage about the "meek inheriting the Earth"?
In their copy, is the world inherited instead by the clique , that group of defence contractors and petrol-pumpers surrounding the President?

Why do they use their bible to approve of the coveting of one's neighbour's ass, because that's aspirational, but not his arse, because that's gay and therefore weird?

How the fuck do they get to use the Bible to extract revenge by attacking someone unconnected with the original crime, as has happened in Iraq? Is this the behaviour of the chruch of God, or a church who has failed to learn God's lessons.

Does it say that a War in Error can replace a War on Terror?

Does the Bible held by these people idolize the man who can not find an error in his decisions ?

Have they a Bible which celebrates the transfer of resources from the poor to the rich ?

How can their Bible bless the moneylenders, as the military runs up its ever-more staggering deficit?

Bush is the most radical and destructive president in living memory, and yet he has been put there again by the Christian vote. May all that he does in this term be attributed as the wishes of the church being fulfilled. Bush may very well kill the church with this term in office, much as he destroyes the value in everything he holds.

These Christian block voters, with their belief in war, wealth and welfare-reform, do not represent the teachings of Jesus,or of any major religion active in the world. Hatred was the motivating force that pulled them together for this election. This election turnout of the Chritstian block voter was driven by pure hatred of others who are different from themselves. My Bible says not to judge, for that is the job of God, yet we observe so many of these Christians were tempted into voting for the first time ever because they were given the chance to condemn gay marriage. Hate got them out of bed and voting in a way love never did. Hate is not what a good Christian should have in his heart, but this election has shown hatred to be the strongest character of the Christian faith today. Hate legislated into law is not God's wish. Hate legislated into law is the wish of the Christian Chruch.

The Church has collectively failed God by failing to understand the most important lessons in religion.

carl winslow · Post by **carl winslow** » 08 Nov 2004 13:12

good points tsiangkun.
i like the bible- but it seems like the people who are obsessed with the bible miss the best parts of it, and twist it around to mean whatever they want it to mean.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 08 Nov 2004 13:18

people are dumb, many of those people consider themselves christians.

ShredStylez · Post by **ShredStylez** » 08 Nov 2004 13:39

Seath wrote:people are dumb, many of those people consider themselves christians.

Good point

Tsiangkun: Do you consider yourself a christian? and did you support John Kerry? I'm just curious.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 08 Nov 2004 14:17

I voted against a man who is in stark disagreement to everything my faith holds dear.

I am not a part of the Christian organized religion. I am a man who tries to follow the examples of Christ and God can call me by whatever name he likes when we meet.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 08 Nov 2004 14:21

you cant vote AGAINST someone without voting FOR someone...im still curious myself, DID you, in fact, vote for bush?

sPinko-Mania · Post by **sPinko-Mania** » 08 Nov 2004 14:26

Jeremy wrote:wait! Do you really think it's ok to vote for the President based on your religious beliefs? Meaning that when he gets elected he forces your religious beliefs onto people who aren't Christians? The US is the probably the only non secular nation in the western world for the last 500 years.

First off I think 500 years is stretching it

I think even saying the US isn't secular now is stretching it to a large degree. Do most people swear on the bible in Australian courts? Little things like that, or 'In God we Trust' on money, or 'God Save New Zealand' in our anthem etc is small fry stuff. Putting the 10 commandments in courts and schools and putting God into prisons and other 'faith based initiatives' are all another story but I think (hope) that's not commonplace enough in the US to say there is a great breach in the state/church barrier.

As to voting based on your own religious beliefs, of course people will. Decisions are founded on a person's normative values. Every output from the entire policy cycle can eventually be led back to some sort of normative view that is held by decision makers (that is, there is no such thing as an amoral law). So when I vote for a politician I will vote for them taking into consideration the source of their normativity and my own normative views. How could I not? To not vote from my own values would be voting against things I fundamentally am opposed to, and would have huge implications that I disagree with.

Religion is just a formalized set of normative values surrounding the supernatural/divine that people use to evaluate the world so why would these types of values not be used in the same way I use my values in the voting process?

I think when people make decisions based on values incompatible with our own, we view it as an assault on reason, rather than reasonable action with different assumptions and motivations. Of course it's fine to argue about the validity and reasonableness about the assumptions and motivations themselves, but we shouldn't be surprised that they make decisions based on them.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 08 Nov 2004 14:37

A vote for Bush ! Are you fucking mentally challenged ? I voted against the anti-christ by casting my vote in favor of the man with the best chance to win. If there is only one man capable of removing a man from office, a vote for one IS a de-facto vote against the other. I voted against the man who has killed 100000 people from a country that did not attack the united states, held no weapons or weapon programs, and posed no immediate or long term threat. I voted against the man who has ruthlessly tortured a population who should not be warring with us by any just standard. I voted against the man who transfers wealth from the masses to the extremely wealthy.

I asked myself what would Jesus do, and the answer was clear.

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 08 Nov 2004 15:36

the USA has gone from a world-power to a world-bully.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 08 Nov 2004 16:14

sPinko-Mania wrote:
Jeremy wrote:Do most people swear on the bible in Australian courts? Little things like that, or 'In God we Trust' on money, or 'God Save New Zealand' in our anthem etc is small fry stuff. Putting the 10 commandments in courts and schools and putting God into prisons and other 'faith based initiatives' are all another story but I think (hope) that's not commonplace enough in the US to say there is a great breach in the state/church barrier.

In Australia you can swear on the bible if you want to - or on any other religious figure - or you can just make a pledge to tell the truth. There is no mention of God on any Australian money as far as I know and there is no mention of God in our national anthem.

Ok I was exaggerating a bit - but it seems very untolerant to want your religous beliefs imposed on people that don't have the same beliefs - and I can't see it helping your religion - but rather making people resent it - just as I would hope they resent anything that takes away their freedoms. Clearly there is a cultural difference between Australia and the US - because it seems like the US public actually support people who take away their freedoms (in general - there are obviously the odd exceptions who disagree with Bush).