Arafat Dead?!
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Senor Grommet
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Arafat Dead?!
Holy Moly? Is he really dead?
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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smpdustin15
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slapdash21
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well, last i heard, deep in coma, nearing death. BUT, this is news we are getting from a country that is less reliable than....i dunno...something really unreliable. so who knows for now. he could already be dead, or he could be planning something (not to be a conspiracy theorist)
Pete Bowler
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Are you talking about France? I trust French media a lot more than US media. In fact most of the US news I've seen is so biased I laughed the whole way through. I hope one day you travel to a more liberal and free country and watch the news there so you can find out what is actually going on around the world.slapdash21 wrote:well, last i heard, deep in coma, nearing death. BUT, this is news we are getting from a country that is less reliable than....i dunno...something really unreliable. so who knows for now. he could already be dead, or he could be planning something (not to be a conspiracy theorist)
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slapdash21
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oh god this is so true. I go to scotland and various parts of europe every summer. The news there is so much more unbaised and just overall better quality. I guess thats why i've never really watched the news except to set my clock. And I still don't know if I should trust thatI hope one day you travel to a more liberal and free country and watch the news there so you can find out what is actually going on around the world.
Hello, my name is Iain George.
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Senor Grommet
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First off, this quote is absurd:
"I've never seen any reason to disbelieve what Arafat says"
Thanks Jeremy, for the comic relief
Secondly, lets return this thread to its intended purpose. I read an article that stated he was dead, cant find it now. Im lookin to the international people to confirm this or not. Thanks. PS, I also heard he named a successor? Who is this guy??
"I've never seen any reason to disbelieve what Arafat says"
Thanks Jeremy, for the comic relief
Secondly, lets return this thread to its intended purpose. I read an article that stated he was dead, cant find it now. Im lookin to the international people to confirm this or not. Thanks. PS, I also heard he named a successor? Who is this guy??
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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Senor Grommet
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" Perhaps Oslo's greatest problem was the inadequacy of the Palestinian leadership. Only Arafat — who embodied his people's nationalist aspirations since becoming leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in the late 1960s — had sufficient stature to sign an accord with the Israelis in 1993. But Arafat subsequently made three unprincipled decisions that crippled the peace process. First, he failed to repudiate violence as a negotiating tactic; in fact, he relished using it to achieve political goals. Second, Arafat subjected security cooperation with Israel to the vicissitudes of the political environment, thereby undermining Israel's faith in the stability of the "land for peace" equation. And third, unlike Nelson Mandela in South Africa, Arafat refused to equate peace with reconciliation, thus gutting any hopes that a deal between governments could be transformed into a far more meaningful — and lasting — peace between peoples.
The Oslo framework was based on Arafat's promise to Rabin that henceforth all disputes would be solved peacefully. To this end, Israel helped create an armed PA, giving it the security apparatus the Palestinian leaders deemed essential to wage war against the Islamist extremists of Hamas.
This Palestinian security force ultimately exceeded its agreed-on size limit by half and comprised no fewer than 12 different security services. Nonetheless, during the first three years of the PA's existence, Arafat resisted unceasing U.S. and Israeli entreaties to use his new muscle to clamp down on Hamas. According to the human rights group B'tzelem, 172 Israelis were killed during this period. All the while, Arafat gave speeches hailing the principle of jihad, and after the Hamas bomb-maker Yahya Ayyash was killed by the Israelis, Arafat publicly eulogized him as a martyr. "
edit:
" The most glaring example of Arafat's use of violence as a negotiating tactic came after last summer's Camp David summit. Arafat was unhappy with the American and Israeli positions — which included an offer of 94 percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza — but made no proposals of his own. Whether or not he was actually responsible for the subsequent outbreak of violence remains subject to debate. But there can be little doubt that he fueled the fighting instead of trying to stop it. State-run Palestinian media exhorted crowds to participate, and daily coordinating meetings took place between Arafat's Fatah movement and members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. On two separate occasions in October, the PA released known terrorists from prison, which seemed to be a green light from the PA for the subsequent terror attacks. Despite making promises to Clinton and other top U.S. officials, Arafat took nearly two full months to issue his first call for the Palestinians to reduce (but not halt) the bloodshed."
Letdowns
On top of Palestinian incitement and Israeli settlement expansion, each side feels the other has failed to observe its commitments under Oslo, thereby undermining faith in the integrity of the process.
Palestinians complain that Israel has repeatedly broken its deadlines for withdrawing from the West Bank. Although Israel has in fact yielded 40 percent of the West Bank to full or partial PA control, and although virtually all Palestinians now live in such areas, the Israeli occupation has been only partially dismantled. Signs of Israel's ongoing control abound, and these — especially the Israeli checkpoints on main roads between Palestinian cities — are offensive to Palestinians.
Israel, meanwhile, complains that the PA releases Hamas terrorists from its custody in a revolving-door fashion, that weapons are regularly smuggled into the territories, and that the agreed-on quotas of the number of Palestinian security forces have been blithely ignored. When the Netanyahu government shone a spotlight on the fact that Palestinian textbooks and state-run media continue to challenge Israel's very existence — in violation of Oslo provisions against incitement — the prime minister was derided for seeking a pretext to halt the peace process. But the Israeli left could never explain why, if the PA was genuinely committed to partition and coexistence, it refused to stem the tide of bilge.
The Oslo framework was based on Arafat's promise to Rabin that henceforth all disputes would be solved peacefully. To this end, Israel helped create an armed PA, giving it the security apparatus the Palestinian leaders deemed essential to wage war against the Islamist extremists of Hamas.
This Palestinian security force ultimately exceeded its agreed-on size limit by half and comprised no fewer than 12 different security services. Nonetheless, during the first three years of the PA's existence, Arafat resisted unceasing U.S. and Israeli entreaties to use his new muscle to clamp down on Hamas. According to the human rights group B'tzelem, 172 Israelis were killed during this period. All the while, Arafat gave speeches hailing the principle of jihad, and after the Hamas bomb-maker Yahya Ayyash was killed by the Israelis, Arafat publicly eulogized him as a martyr. "
edit:
" The most glaring example of Arafat's use of violence as a negotiating tactic came after last summer's Camp David summit. Arafat was unhappy with the American and Israeli positions — which included an offer of 94 percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza — but made no proposals of his own. Whether or not he was actually responsible for the subsequent outbreak of violence remains subject to debate. But there can be little doubt that he fueled the fighting instead of trying to stop it. State-run Palestinian media exhorted crowds to participate, and daily coordinating meetings took place between Arafat's Fatah movement and members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. On two separate occasions in October, the PA released known terrorists from prison, which seemed to be a green light from the PA for the subsequent terror attacks. Despite making promises to Clinton and other top U.S. officials, Arafat took nearly two full months to issue his first call for the Palestinians to reduce (but not halt) the bloodshed."
Letdowns
On top of Palestinian incitement and Israeli settlement expansion, each side feels the other has failed to observe its commitments under Oslo, thereby undermining faith in the integrity of the process.
Palestinians complain that Israel has repeatedly broken its deadlines for withdrawing from the West Bank. Although Israel has in fact yielded 40 percent of the West Bank to full or partial PA control, and although virtually all Palestinians now live in such areas, the Israeli occupation has been only partially dismantled. Signs of Israel's ongoing control abound, and these — especially the Israeli checkpoints on main roads between Palestinian cities — are offensive to Palestinians.
Israel, meanwhile, complains that the PA releases Hamas terrorists from its custody in a revolving-door fashion, that weapons are regularly smuggled into the territories, and that the agreed-on quotas of the number of Palestinian security forces have been blithely ignored. When the Netanyahu government shone a spotlight on the fact that Palestinian textbooks and state-run media continue to challenge Israel's very existence — in violation of Oslo provisions against incitement — the prime minister was derided for seeking a pretext to halt the peace process. But the Israeli left could never explain why, if the PA was genuinely committed to partition and coexistence, it refused to stem the tide of bilge.
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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Senor Grommet
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Arafat is one of the world's biggest liars. He makes speeches on a world stage that embrace freedom and peaceful resolutions to the middle east conflicts and then delivers speeches to his own people comdemning the jews and calling for their destruction. After pledging peace, all he does is support terrorism. How can YOU say that you have no reason to not believe him?
Jeremy, here is more of the same, Arafat lying:
"But Israel chose a different course. In 1993, following secret negotiations in Oslo, it embarked on a "peace process" designed to elevate Arafat and the PLO to heights of power, wealth, and respect they had never before known. In exchange for Arafat's promise of peace - ''the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence," he pledged in writing - Israel agreed to forget the PLO's long history of mass murder and to treat it as the legitimate representative of the Palestinians. The deal was sealed at the White House on Sept. 13, 1993, when Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin gave Arafat his hand and affirmed his new status as Israel's partner in peace.
What followed was unprecedented in the history of statecraft. Arafat and thousands of PLO killers, now reconstituted as the "Palestinian Authority," entered Gaza and the West Bank in triumph. In short order, Israel transferred virtually every Arab city and town in the territories to Arafat's control. It allowed the Palestinian Authority to assume full administrative power over the Palestinian people. It not only agreed to the creation of an armed Palestinian Authority militia, it supplied the authority with weapons. It began paying Arafat a multimillion-dollar monthly allowance and lobbied internationally for additional financial support. It permitted the Palestinian Authority to build an airport, operate radio and television networks, and deal with other countries as a sovereign power.
This was appeasement on a scale far beyond Neville Chamberlain's infamous land-for-peace agreement in Munich. For when it became clear that Hitler's intentions were not peaceful, Britain abandoned appeasement and went to war. But even after Israel saw that Arafat's hostility was undimmed, it went on making one concession after another.
Literally from the day the Oslo accord was signed, Arafat made it plain that his lifelong goal - Israel's liquidation - was unchanged. He reaffirmed the PLO's "Plan of Phases," its 1974 program of eliminating Israel by stages. He repeatedly called for jihad and extolled Palestinian terrorists as "martyrs" and heroes.
The starting point of the Oslo peace process, the foundation on which everything else had been conditioned, was the Palestinians' unequivocal renunciation of terror and violence. But instead of ending, the terror and violence accelerated. The Israeli death toll soared. Arab snipers and bombers, many from Arafat's own wing of the PLO, murdered Jews at a faster pace than ever before. And each new atrocity was hailed by the Palestinian media, which poured out a flood of anti-Semitic venom and bloodlust.
Yet the Israeli government never called a halt. Time and again, it responded to Israeli deaths by proclaiming its faith in the "peace process" and giving more territory to Arafat. Desperate for peace, the Israelis kept overlooking Palestinian violations and upping the price they were willing to pay for a final settlement. With every new concession, the Palestinians grew more certain that the Israelis were on the run - and that hitting them even harder would bring even greater returns. When Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat nearly everything he had demanded, including a state with Jerusalem as its capital, Arafat's reply was to unleash a second intifadah, more furious and lethal than the first."
edit:
"In the Middle East, memories mean something. So do symbols such as the PLO's map of "Palestine" encompassing all of Israel and documents such as the PLO's 'destroy Israel' Covenant and words, such as Arafat's "jihad" speeches. The Arab-Israeli conflict is not some psychological misunderstanding that can be resolved through a cheap public relations trick. It is a century-old struggle motivated by the desire of the Jewish people to rebuild their ancient homeland, and the desire of the Arabs motivated by Islam and Arab nationalism to destroy the Jewish homeland. The continuing refusal of the PLO to change its Covenant dramatically illustrates this unchanged Arab goal.
In a recent letter to President Clinton, Arafat claimed that the Covenant has already been changed. But Clause #33 of the Covenant states that the Covenant can be changed only by a vote of two-thirds of the total membership of the PLO's Palestine National Council. The Council has not yet voted any such changes, despite Arafat's promise to do so in the 1993 Oslo accords. In April 1996, Arafat convened the PLO's National Council to consider the Covenantbut instead of changing it, the Council referred it to a legal committee for further consideration. That committee has never met. Consequently, the Hebron accord that Israel and the PLO signed in January 1997 required the PLO to "complete the process of revising" the Covenant. However, the PLO has still taken no action in that regard.
The PLO National Council must delete 27 of the
Covenant's 33 clauses:
* Clause #s 1 and 2, which declare that "Palestine" is "the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people," excluding any Jewish claim to any of it, and define the boundaries of "Palestine" and thereby reiterates the exclusive Arab claim to it.
* Clause #3, which states that "the Palestinian people" alone "possess the legal right" to Palestine, again excluding any Jewish claim.
* Clause #4, which refers to Israel as "the Zionist occupation," clearly indicating it has no right to exist.
* Clause #6, which asserts that the only Jews who can live in Palestine are those who were there "until the beginning of the Zionist invasion," which the PLO dates to 1917.
* Clause #s 7, 8, 9, and 10, which call for "armed struggle" and "commando action" against Israel.
* Clause #s15 and 19, which call for "the elimination of Zionism in Palestine" and say that "the establishment of the State of Israel is entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time."
* Clause #20, which brands the Balfour Declaration (the British promise to help create a Jewish national home) "null and void" and denies that Jews have any "historical or religious ties" with Palestine.
* Clause #s 22 and 23, which defines Zionism as "racist," "fanatic," "fascist," and "imperialist,"and urge all countries to "outlaw" Zionism.
* In addition, Clause #s 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, "
Jeremy, here is more of the same, Arafat lying:
"But Israel chose a different course. In 1993, following secret negotiations in Oslo, it embarked on a "peace process" designed to elevate Arafat and the PLO to heights of power, wealth, and respect they had never before known. In exchange for Arafat's promise of peace - ''the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence," he pledged in writing - Israel agreed to forget the PLO's long history of mass murder and to treat it as the legitimate representative of the Palestinians. The deal was sealed at the White House on Sept. 13, 1993, when Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin gave Arafat his hand and affirmed his new status as Israel's partner in peace.
What followed was unprecedented in the history of statecraft. Arafat and thousands of PLO killers, now reconstituted as the "Palestinian Authority," entered Gaza and the West Bank in triumph. In short order, Israel transferred virtually every Arab city and town in the territories to Arafat's control. It allowed the Palestinian Authority to assume full administrative power over the Palestinian people. It not only agreed to the creation of an armed Palestinian Authority militia, it supplied the authority with weapons. It began paying Arafat a multimillion-dollar monthly allowance and lobbied internationally for additional financial support. It permitted the Palestinian Authority to build an airport, operate radio and television networks, and deal with other countries as a sovereign power.
This was appeasement on a scale far beyond Neville Chamberlain's infamous land-for-peace agreement in Munich. For when it became clear that Hitler's intentions were not peaceful, Britain abandoned appeasement and went to war. But even after Israel saw that Arafat's hostility was undimmed, it went on making one concession after another.
Literally from the day the Oslo accord was signed, Arafat made it plain that his lifelong goal - Israel's liquidation - was unchanged. He reaffirmed the PLO's "Plan of Phases," its 1974 program of eliminating Israel by stages. He repeatedly called for jihad and extolled Palestinian terrorists as "martyrs" and heroes.
The starting point of the Oslo peace process, the foundation on which everything else had been conditioned, was the Palestinians' unequivocal renunciation of terror and violence. But instead of ending, the terror and violence accelerated. The Israeli death toll soared. Arab snipers and bombers, many from Arafat's own wing of the PLO, murdered Jews at a faster pace than ever before. And each new atrocity was hailed by the Palestinian media, which poured out a flood of anti-Semitic venom and bloodlust.
Yet the Israeli government never called a halt. Time and again, it responded to Israeli deaths by proclaiming its faith in the "peace process" and giving more territory to Arafat. Desperate for peace, the Israelis kept overlooking Palestinian violations and upping the price they were willing to pay for a final settlement. With every new concession, the Palestinians grew more certain that the Israelis were on the run - and that hitting them even harder would bring even greater returns. When Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat nearly everything he had demanded, including a state with Jerusalem as its capital, Arafat's reply was to unleash a second intifadah, more furious and lethal than the first."
edit:
"In the Middle East, memories mean something. So do symbols such as the PLO's map of "Palestine" encompassing all of Israel and documents such as the PLO's 'destroy Israel' Covenant and words, such as Arafat's "jihad" speeches. The Arab-Israeli conflict is not some psychological misunderstanding that can be resolved through a cheap public relations trick. It is a century-old struggle motivated by the desire of the Jewish people to rebuild their ancient homeland, and the desire of the Arabs motivated by Islam and Arab nationalism to destroy the Jewish homeland. The continuing refusal of the PLO to change its Covenant dramatically illustrates this unchanged Arab goal.
In a recent letter to President Clinton, Arafat claimed that the Covenant has already been changed. But Clause #33 of the Covenant states that the Covenant can be changed only by a vote of two-thirds of the total membership of the PLO's Palestine National Council. The Council has not yet voted any such changes, despite Arafat's promise to do so in the 1993 Oslo accords. In April 1996, Arafat convened the PLO's National Council to consider the Covenantbut instead of changing it, the Council referred it to a legal committee for further consideration. That committee has never met. Consequently, the Hebron accord that Israel and the PLO signed in January 1997 required the PLO to "complete the process of revising" the Covenant. However, the PLO has still taken no action in that regard.
The PLO National Council must delete 27 of the
Covenant's 33 clauses:
* Clause #s 1 and 2, which declare that "Palestine" is "the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people," excluding any Jewish claim to any of it, and define the boundaries of "Palestine" and thereby reiterates the exclusive Arab claim to it.
* Clause #3, which states that "the Palestinian people" alone "possess the legal right" to Palestine, again excluding any Jewish claim.
* Clause #4, which refers to Israel as "the Zionist occupation," clearly indicating it has no right to exist.
* Clause #6, which asserts that the only Jews who can live in Palestine are those who were there "until the beginning of the Zionist invasion," which the PLO dates to 1917.
* Clause #s 7, 8, 9, and 10, which call for "armed struggle" and "commando action" against Israel.
* Clause #s15 and 19, which call for "the elimination of Zionism in Palestine" and say that "the establishment of the State of Israel is entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time."
* Clause #20, which brands the Balfour Declaration (the British promise to help create a Jewish national home) "null and void" and denies that Jews have any "historical or religious ties" with Palestine.
* Clause #s 22 and 23, which defines Zionism as "racist," "fanatic," "fascist," and "imperialist,"and urge all countries to "outlaw" Zionism.
* In addition, Clause #s 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, "
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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slapdash21
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i wasnt gonna read all that cuz it was so long, but im interested in the topic, and it looks like you went to a helluva lot of work. so i read it, and im much impressed with it. all historically accurate and good points. nice work SG.
EDIT: oh gosh...there is more *reads* way to kick in some thought-provoking material
EDIT: oh gosh...there is more *reads* way to kick in some thought-provoking material
Pete Bowler
B$C
keeps it offah da ground.
617 FOR LIFE
B$C
keeps it offah da ground.
617 FOR LIFE
That's great Jeremy, but it's a very simple view of the Palestine side of the arguement. Arafat was in a very hard position at those times - he can't simply ignore what the people want and make decisions on his own. My view of his leadership has not been one of lieing or of being honest - but one of being unable to balance the different factions of Palestine. I don't think we will ever know if he wants peace or not - but that it was impossible for him to achieve anything when he had so little support and so many internal conflicts.
Perhaps what I wrote was misleading. I have never had any reason to disbelieve what Arafat has said - but I've never had any reason to believe it either - I can see how you could make the assumption that the first statement leads to me believe what he says but you're wrong - I don't.
Perhaps what I wrote was misleading. I have never had any reason to disbelieve what Arafat has said - but I've never had any reason to believe it either - I can see how you could make the assumption that the first statement leads to me believe what he says but you're wrong - I don't.
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Senor Grommet
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just making sure. He has always been caught btwn a rock and a hard place; this I realize. But, his response has always been to have a two-sided personality: 1 for the rest of the world, and a different one to his own people.
He is a two-faced war mongerer.
He is a two-faced war mongerer.
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
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ShredStylez
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I think you should do a lot more research into Palestinian politics. Basically I don't think you know anything at all about them - apart from the fact that there are terrorists on the Palestinian side and Arafat is the leader of the Palestinians.ShredStylez wrote:Which is why i hope he's dead. He has on his own developed the terrorists of today. Teaching how to be an effective suicide bomber and such.
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max
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according to military officials from the hospital in which Arafat is being treated (it is a military hospital). He is in a coma and everey day the officials say that his state has "not worsened".
Hmm.. doen't mean much. Rumor has it that he is braindead, and that he is on life-support. There are LOTS of other rumors I hear but I give them a lot less credit.
Hmm.. doen't mean much. Rumor has it that he is braindead, and that he is on life-support. There are LOTS of other rumors I hear but I give them a lot less credit.
Maxime Boucoiran
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French ConneXion
BFC
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slapdash21
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this doesnt even NEED to be mentioned, because it is so obvious, but i will say it anyway. Arafat dying WONT make a difference whatsoever in Palestine or the way it interacts with other nations and leaders, because Arafat must have already hand-picked a succesor to follow him, and this person is probably a LOT like him...just a hunch.
Pete Bowler
B$C
keeps it offah da ground.
617 FOR LIFE
B$C
keeps it offah da ground.
617 FOR LIFE
More to the point - the new leader won't be able to do anything just like Arafat couldn't. Palestinian politics is very fractured - if the new leader looks towards violence as an answer they will lose the pacifist majority and the international support. If they look towards peace as an answer they will lose those that believe in a violent struggle - who will step up their violent attacks - making peace even harder to achieve. It's a no win job unless you can presuade the violent factions to make peace. Even amongst the violent factions in particular - things are very fractured and they disagree on a number of things. They do have a common enemy - but completely different beliefs on how victory can be achieved.