Deer Hunting

wolfpac444 · Post by **wolfpac444** » 18 Nov 2004 12:57

Sniikeri,
Vegetarian = no meat
Vegan = nothing with animal products

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 18 Nov 2004 13:10

Some vegetarians do. Vegans are so damn picky -- they create their own food groups.....It's IMPOSSIBLE to buy food for vegans. IMPOSSIBLE.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 18 Nov 2004 13:51

When you eat a carrot you are saying that it's ok to kill that plant! hehe

If a carrot had a conciousness would it be immoral to eat it?

They sound like dumb comments but I'm sorta half serious about them.

The whole idea behind veganism is that you don't rely on other animals to feed you right? (I dunno I'm just assuming) Don't kill something to sustain your own life? Because vegans believe animals have a concious? Because they feel pain..? and they wouldnt want you to drink their milk?

The whole veganism thing is really confusing to me, help me understand! I find alot of vegans are also against genetically modified foods and use the "frankenstein foods" defence as if they believe the plants have a concience aslo. So I guess I want to know a vegans defence for genetic foods too.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 18 Nov 2004 14:36

ok, this is how i see it. Vegetarians and vegans alike are only correct in their opinion if they dont eat meat because they think it tastes gross or something reasonable like that. killing for meat occurs in nature everyday as it has since the dawn of time. back in the stone age, in the time of cavemen etc, meat was the main component of man's diet; even though agriculture wasnt an option at the time, it still shows that if that is how nature has been set up, why should things change now? its bad enough that as technology improves over the eras, morals are decaying. humans are causing their own de-evolution, and i really consider vegetarianism a very minor part of that de-evolutionary process

lightningbolt · Post by **lightningbolt** » 18 Nov 2004 15:04

The reason I'm a vegetarian is because I think it's unnesscary. We don't need meat to live anymore. If all of a sudden pigs, cows, fish etc pulled out a m-16 and said, 'you kill another animal and i will kill you' and there was no more meat, people would live. Unlike, in nauture if a main food sluppy goes way that speices would die out. People just eat it now because they like it.

I not saying that everybody should turn a vegetarian

Also, my whole family vegatarians so that makes it easy.

Chris Hanratty · Post by **Chris Hanratty** » 18 Nov 2004 18:24

Not that I agree with this, but it might be interesting to some of you.

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#PETA

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 18 Nov 2004 18:29

bah PETA cannot be taken seriously, unfortunately they are run by hypocrites and fanatics all they do is cause shit.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 18 Nov 2004 19:35

slapdash21 wrote: killing for meat occurs in nature everyday as it has since the dawn of time. back in the stone age, in the time of cavemen etc, meat was the main component of man's diet; even though agriculture wasnt an option at the time, it still shows that if that is how nature has been set up, why should things change now? its bad enough that as technology improves over the eras, morals are decaying. humans are causing their own de-evolution, and i really consider vegetarianism a very minor part of that de-evolutionary process

Wait a sec., you just said that since the beginning of time we've eaten meat yada yada. Then you said that vegetarianism is part of the de-evolutionary process. But wouldn't it be eating meat that's taking us back in time if it’s what we’ve ‘always done’? Your logic doesn't make sense to me. I don't agree with the argument; it's the same logic people use for anti-gay arguments. "This is the way God intended it to be from the beginning of time..." and so on. But we must rise above where we've been and broaden our horizons (okay that was cheesy, but it's all I've got right now).

And wouldn't deciding not to eat the charred flesh of an animal that has suffered while dying slowly and painfully contribute to becoming more moral? (and that was dramatic)

P.S. With all that said: I am an omnivore (: I eat vegetables, fruits, and meat.) I do it because I know I would not take good enough care of myself if I cut meat out of my diet, and because my favorite food in the world is a big juicy (bloody) steak.

_________________
Emily Kulczyk

“To infinite, ever present Love, all is Love, and there is no error, no sin sickness, nor death.”

millenniumtree · Post by **millenniumtree** » 18 Nov 2004 21:39

Here is why I'm vegan, in a nutshell... There are other reasons, but this is just a quick and dirty... AND they're not in any particular order... Each point means a lot to me, I don't think I could rank them in importance.

1. I love my pets, and at some point in my life, the difference between food animals (pigs, cows, chickens) and pets (cats, dogs, horses) was blurred. In my opinion, they all should be treated with the respect you give your pets. I feel morally better knowing that I have caused the least amount of harm to other living creatures as I possibly can. (and to most, that is what veganism is all about, causing the LEAST amount of harm as possible)

2. Eating vegetables is more healthy than eating meat, this has been proven time and time again. You may disagree with this, and that's OK, but the fact is that heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S. Of course, eating an improperly balanced vegan diet can kill you too, but I personally feel I have a better chance of being healthy and HAPPY with veganism.

3. milk, eggs, leather, etc: This leads back into causing the least amount of harm possible. It's not because I feel the animals wouldn't like me to eat their excreta, or wear their skin. The reason I don't consume (eat or otherwise) any animal products is because the production of these products directly or indirectly causes the slaughter and suffering of animals. The raising of dairy cattle causes the cattle to be born, live a shitty, unnatural life, and be killed. Half of all egg-laying chickens are thrown unceremoniously in dumpsters and left to die because males are useless to the industry. The purchase of a leather jacket puts money in the pockets of the slaughterhouses and contributes to the profitibility of the meat industry, etc, etc.

Now, I'm just explaining my own opinions on the matter. There are some facts above, but a lot of personal beliefs as well. While I would love people to become vegan, I also recognize that some people may have vastly different opinions about the 3 points above which directly conflict with the vegan lifestyle. I respect that.

<standard disclaimer>
If you wish to attack me or my beliefs, I'm used to it. I've seen it all before, heard all the arguments before, so nothing would surprise me. If you're going to point out flaws in my lifestyle (for example, my cats eat meat-based food), I can explain these things, but trust me, nothing you could bring up hasn't been brought up before, thought about and weighed carefully by me. The point is to cause the least harm possible, not to go absolutely insane worrying about everything and everyone around me. _I_ am vegan, my cats are just cats. They don't need to worry about anything because all they need to do is chase tinsel balls and watch birds.
</standard disclaimer>

It seems that several people on the list are truly interested in _WHY_ someone would be crazy enough to become vegan, and I thought I'd explain it from my viewpoint.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :)

millenniumtree · Post by **millenniumtree** » 18 Nov 2004 21:59

Oops! I almost forgot to answer Seath's question about genetically modified foods. There are a few good reasons that I can think of to shun genetically modified foods...

In order to make a genetically modified food, you have to splice the plants DNA with another plant or even an animal's DNA. While this sounds like it just wouldn't work, it certainly does work, because it's been done!! The issue leads us to questions such as this one:
If I splice peanut DNA into corn, will people with peanut allergies now have an alergic reaction to the corn? What if I use a fish gene to make pears produce omega-3 fatty acids? Are people going to go to the grocery store, pick up a pear, take a bite and die because they are now allergic to the fishy pear? What if a side-effect of the fish gene is that it causes the pear to create a formerly unknown poison that builds up in your body and eventually kills you after 10 years or so? How do we trace that and how many people would be affected before the flaw is discovered?

The answers to all of these are WE DON'T KNOW! Nobody knows yet, and the megacorps that control the hugely profitable branded corn that grows twice as fast don't want you to know either, because it would cut into their bottom line.

Also, there are what are known as "terminator crops" They grow once, and cannot be used for seed because all seeds produced by the crop are sterile. There have been cases where pollen from a terminator crop floats into other farmers crops, causing their crop to go sterile as well. The biotech firms reap huge profits from terminators because farmers must buy a new batch of seed every year, but the farmers that can't afford to buy seed every year get raped.

This stuff is bad for the environment, and bad for the worlds economy, especially in 3rd world countries where the people need the most help.

I personally admit to being a junk-food-vegan. I eat cookies and chips and candy all the time... I'm certain there are a lot of GM foods in that stuff, but I'm not willing to spend more on pure organic foods... Vegan is enough for me, vegan AND pure organic would break my back both financially, and turn me a paranoid nutcase. :P

OK, sorry guys, I'm calling myself on off topic posting... I didn't even realize this was a deer hunting thread. I think the above posts kinda sum up my thoughts on deer hunting anyway, but... yeah.

sniikeri · Post by **sniikeri** » 19 Nov 2004 10:59

wolfpac444 wrote:Sniikeri,
Vegetarian = no meat
Vegan = nothing with animal products

Yes, I know that but there are so many different persons. Some eat fish and chicken. Some don't.
And please just call me Lauri.

milleniumtree wrote:3. milk, eggs, leather, etc: This leads back into causing the least amount of harm possible. It's not because I feel the animals wouldn't like me to eat their excreta, or wear their skin. The reason I don't consume (eat or otherwise) any animal products is because the production of these products directly or indirectly causes the slaughter and suffering of animals. The raising of dairy cattle causes the cattle to be born, live a shitty, unnatural life, and be killed. Half of all egg-laying chickens are thrown unceremoniously in dumpsters and left to die because males are useless to the industry. The purchase of a leather jacket puts money in the pockets of the slaughterhouses and contributes to the profitibility of the meat industry, etc, etc

If everyone of us would stop using milk products, what'd be the use of cows? Put them all in zoos? Porks wouldn't survive neither, nor chickens or sheep.

I know that those all are "made" by human in the past. I know that those animals don't certainly have proper circumstancies there in their "meat fabrics". Still, I don't get it why people take their dogs to a dog hotel. Some people are starving and dying and pets get better food than them. That is one thing that disgusts me.

Don't get me wrong, I like animals. I just don't understand the reasons of vegetarism.

P.S. Sheep would have heck of a hot wherever they are at summer if we wouldn't use their wool.

millenniumtree · Post by **millenniumtree** » 19 Nov 2004 14:56

I think you misunderstood my point.

The reason there ARE so many animals is BECAUSE they are raised for their wool, milk, eggs, etc.

Also, there is no way the animals will become "jobless" all at once... Change takes time, and sheep do die eventually. There will never be an excess of animals because of a lack of demand, except in the case of rodents and "undesirable" wild animals.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 19 Nov 2004 14:57

I know that those all are "made" by human in the past. I know that those animals don't certainly have proper circumstancies there in their "meat fabrics". Still, I don't get it why people take their dogs to a dog hotel. Some people are starving and dying and pets get better food than them. That is one thing that disgusts me.

exactly. of course we spend a lot of money on other unnecessary stuff, but its another good point. also, meat is part of a balanced diet. possibly even part of this balanced breakfast...

EDIT: the quote is from Lauri, by the way

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 19 Nov 2004 15:57

Flesh is flesh, whether it's from a 4 legged hooved animal, or a 2 legged lavered animal.

First and foremost, this cracked me up.

The whole idea behind veganism is that you don't rely on other animals to feed you right? (I dunno I'm just assuming) Don't kill something to sustain your own life? Because vegans believe animals have a concious? Because they feel pain..? and they wouldnt want you to drink their milk?

No... Vegans wouldn't drink their milk because it only puts money in the pockets of those who treat the animals badly.

Also, someone brang up a great point of why eat cows/pigs ect if we don't eat cats/dogs? Pigs are much much much much more intelligent than any common western household pet. Let us also not forget dolphins whose emat is included in tuna.

also, meat is part of a balanced diet. possibly even part of this balanced breakfast...

Actually no, this is the same old propaganda put out decades ago. It's been proven now that meat is in fact very unhealthy, and that the good things that come from meats (Proteins) can be easily found elsewhere, while the fatty lipids cannot be removed from meat.

killing for meat occurs in nature everyday as it has since the dawn of time. back in the stone age, in the time of cavemen etc, meat was the main component of man's diet; even though agriculture wasnt an option at the time, it still shows that if that is how nature has been set up, why should things change now? its bad enough that as technology improves over the eras, morals are decaying. humans are causing their own de-evolution, and i really consider vegetarianism a very minor part of that de-evolutionary process

Your basic argument is people have always eaten meat, thus why should it change? It really isn't eating meat that has changed, it is the way that animals are killed to be consumed. In the old days people would kill their own meat and then eat it, but today animals are treated like product, and are misused to save as much capital as possible. The abuses that occur in slaughterhouses are absurd and outdated in the society we live in today.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 19 Nov 2004 16:41

also, i mean i know people say its a moral issue, but...
whats the deal with not buying leather and such because it keeps a small amount of money out of the producers (ok, technically the animal is the producer, so saying the 'harvester') pockets? you arent going to shut down the whole business by a few people not drinking milk or buying leather. there are enough people that DO like milk, and that do appreciate leather so that you refusing to buy the stuff isnt going to do anything to their business

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 19 Nov 2004 17:52

Your wrong on two accounts here.

First of all, most vegitarians don't think that their one self not eating milk is going to send the meat industry into collapse, but that isn't the reason people don't eat meat. People don't eat meat because they realize that it is useless and outdated to kill animals, and thus don't want to support something they don't believe in.

A good analogy is this, I don't rob a bank for morale reasons. Is this going to stop others from robbing banks? Of course not, but that is no excuse for me to go and take money unjustly. Bad behavior isn't excused by someone elses bad behaviour. Vegitarians and vegans see not lining the pockets of the meat industries as something that they personally don't believe in.

Now, here is where you are really wrong. Millions upon millions of people in this country are vegitarians and vegans, this is a signifigant chunk of change that is NOT going to the meat industry. As a single person not eating meat we do nothing, but as millions of us not eating meat, we are a powerful voice.

The analogy for this is something like voting, where your vote will not sway the election as one vote, but a collective vote of people who agree with you, is enough to change the world. You conclusion that ME not supporting the death of animals wont hurt their business is correct, your conclusion that US not supporting the meat industry wont hurt their business is wrong, very very wrong.

Plus I know alot of girls I've gotten with who think it is very cool that I don't eat meat... Is their a connection...? I think so

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 19 Nov 2004 17:53

By the way Seath... How are the leaders fo PETA hypocrites? I'm not arguing with you I'm just curious why you'd think that.

sPinko-Mania · Post by **sPinko-Mania** » 19 Nov 2004 18:37

slapdash21 wrote:ok, this is how i see it. Vegetarians and vegans alike are only correct in their opinion if they dont eat meat because they think it tastes gross or something reasonable like that. killing for meat occurs in nature everyday as it has since the dawn of time. back in the stone age, in the time of cavemen etc, meat was the main component of man's diet; even though agriculture wasnt an option at the time, it still shows that if that is how nature has been set up, why should things change now? its bad enough that as technology improves over the eras, morals are decaying. humans are causing their own de-evolution, and i really consider vegetarianism a very minor part of that de-evolutionary process

To say that something is "natural" is not to say that it is good. There is no reason to adopt natures 'values' as our own. But even to talk of 'natural values' is a farce, there are no normative connotations to calling something 'natural'. Mike doesn't eat meat, is that unnatural? No, because Mike is nature

My take on that last part is a little strange, but the first part isn't anything new: you should search google for the naturalistic fallacy.

there are enough people that DO like milk, and that do appreciate leather so that you refusing to buy the stuff isnt going to do anything to their business

...

sPinko-Mania wrote:It amazes me how people don't seem to get the notion of 'being the change you want to see in the world'. This applies to both positive stuff like voting and charity to bad stuff like littering and shoplifting. If you want to look at the marginal difference of your vote, or a buck to charity, or throwing away a can or shoplifting a pairs of pants, then I think you've successfully missed the point (one of the points?) of Gandhi's quote.

One, it's a matter of right and wrong, two, collective action is powerful.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 19 Nov 2004 20:00

BainbridgeShred wrote:By the way Seath... How are the leaders fo PETA hypocrites? I'm not arguing with you I'm just curious why you'd think that.

Well I was really referring to one of the senior level peta workers who publicly stated many times that she (and her organization) was against ANYTHING that required the use of animals, and shunned anyone who did use products that required animals, but she uses penicillin on a regular basis. Penicillin would not be around today if it weren't for animal testing. And when asked about how she could be hypocritical about the situation she says that her's is a special case, some animals should suffer so that the rest can be saved. And I believe she also said that her's is the only case, so if you use penicillin, you're going against PETA.

That and the fact that PETA funds radicals who send their message by way of firebombing buildings and putting HUMAN's lives in danger.

Also most farmers want their chickens and cows to be happy because happy animals produce better eggs/milk. It's not like every time you drink a glass of milk you are supporting slaughter houses, in fact I could bike to the nearest milk processing plant in my area, and then bike a little farther and pet the nice cows that produced my milk, and chase the chickens around that gave me my tasty omelette this morning.

Even alot of farmers who raise beef cattle take great care of their stock! Let them live great lives in green pastures, how many times do you drive by cows on the side of the highway? They always look pretty happy and have a shitload of pasture to chew on. I think the problem is the HUGE companies that take all the care out of slaughtering animals for meat, and replace that care with efficiency to supply the fast food chains that are constantly pushing them for more and more meat! if we relied on local farmers for our meat instead of McDonalds, so much of this controversy would be settled without us having to give up those tasty steaks we all love.
I personally don't eat at mcdonalds

and I'd love to hunt one day and eat deer burgers for a whole winter

:D

blackcrown · Post by **blackcrown** » 22 Nov 2004 11:10

This guy decided deer wern't hard enough to shoot. Do they still make you read "The Most Dangerous Game" in school?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/22/hunter ... index.html