shred 30 score

[Jeremy]

Unique Move
For the purpose of Composition Judging, a unique move is any move containing an add value whose add components are different from any other move done in that performance. Spin directions and leg direction in dexterity moves are considered different; moves coming from a different set are not unique unless that set forces another add component (i.e. body, in the case of "paradox" moves) to be added.

So according to that ripwalk and da da curve are both same move. Bigwalk and amadaus are both the same move. Tapdown and paradon are both the same move. Sailing clipper and pixie grifter are both the same move. Quasi symp mirage and voodoo are both the same move. Pixie ducking butterfly and pixie zulu butterfly are both the same move. Bubba butterfly and legbeater are both the same move - as are toe ripwalk and clipper set ripwalk. And most importantly - nowhere in that definition does it say that a move hit on the opoposite side is a unique move - infact it seems to fairly straight forwardly suggest that a flipside move is not a unique - since it doesn't match any of the criteria given for unique moves.

I'm glad that's cleared up - So according to the IFPA rules for a shred 30 there is no distinction between zulu and ducking (or diving and weaving), moves hit on both sides do not count as two uniques. Moves with the same jobs but from a different set are the same move. There is no distinction between up time and down time sets.

[brian relly]

Finally, Jeremy. I thought you'd never get it.

[Allan]

Disclaimer: I'm not on the IFC and have never looked at this issue in depth at the committee level. The above post is my stated opinion on the matter and I hope it won't reflect poorly on my impartiality as a board member of IFPA. It certainly wasn't diplomatic and for that, I apologize.

Jeremy emailed me just now asking about the Australian Footbag Championships and it's eligibility for sanctioning since they planned on counting unique's differently as prescribed by the rules Jon has pointed out. This prompted me to do some actual digging of my own and I found some interesting stuff in there

This is a link to a draft version of the new rule book:

http://www.footbag.org/groups/showfile/136

You have to be an IFPA member to download it. This version has been revised slightly, but not substantially in this area, I do not believe, though I don't have time to make an actual comparison with the version that is in the process of being published.

I will add that it's my fault the online version is out of date I volunteered to help Scott revise the online edition 6 months ago, but as of yet, have not done anything with it. My bad. Sorry.

Let me reiterate, this is a DRAFT version that was posted privately in the Board of Directors group on .org - I made it public for the purposes of this discussion (without committee consent, so I hope I've not stepped on any toes, but I felt it was important).

The highly relevant part, I'll re-print here as the 'Uniques' section has been re-written.

508.03 . Unique Moves Judges will count the number of unique moves in each performance that qualify based on the “Minimum” allowable move value set by the Event Director. When possible, Judges will write down every move completed in order and indicating where and if drops occurred. When every move is written down, the advantages are that the scores are completely accurate and from this single list, all other partial scores (adds, contacts, ratio and total score) as set forth in 508.04, 508.05, 508.06 can be calculated.

I bolded the relevant part. This makes sense to me. This leaves it wide open for this debate to continue and, for the most part, resolves the question at hand. It was the World's organizer's discretion as to how to count unique's and therefore, Vaska did, in fact, beat Honza.

The only debate would be over whether the judges did this consistently across the board, for every competitor. As Steve always tutored in his judging clinics "Judge however you want, but do it consistently. That it is the key element to having half way accurate results.

I think that this highlights the fact that it is recognized that the sport is still in it's infancy and that there is plenty of room to grow and try stuff out. IFPA does not exist as a punitive regulatory body that is trying to enforce "the rules". It's by the players for the players.

As Jon pointed out, there is a committee for this stuff. If you want to change it, all you have to do is speak up. We're doing it right now. It doesn't really matter if the discuss happens in official committee as long as the results are passed through it by it's participants.

So, there are still some interesting points that have been brought up in this thread that should absolutely be debated. I am firmer than ever in my conviction that, for the purposes of judging shred :30 that the definition of a "unique" move needs a drastic overhaul in the opposite direction that Jeremy proposes.

As briefly as possible, Jeremy, yes, most of those moves are unique from one another. The defining aspect, for me, is what happens after the bag leaves your foot. Dada and ripwalk are unique because the dexes happen at different times during the move - crispy V original are unique because of the timing. DOD, Barfly, etc are the same because once the bag leaves your foot, the exact same move happens on the way down. There is no difference, but for the setting surface. Yes, if you apply this concept across the board, all sorts of caveats start to pop up. But I don't think such issues invalidate the theory and simply need to be fleshed out.

In modern Shred :30 Uniques are everything. One unique move can give you a win. I think we should be challenging the definition of "unique" and keeping that "old school" train of thought that raises the bar a little higher in the interest of exposing the hundreds of thousands of moves out there that are not being explored.

To me, similar is not unique and I think that while it may make judging this event slightly harder (counting unique's isn't the easiest judging assignment) , I think it is a level that we should aspire to as a community instead of allowing this homogenizing trend to continue.

Aight. Work to do.

- Allan

[Allan]

Just wanted to point out that I also noticed that in the updated rules, "Shred :30" is referred to as Timed Technical Variety Competition (Shred).

This is as broad as possible on purpose. It allows a wide variety of techinical differences while keeping basic characteristics.

Of course we want to work towards using accepted standards, but that's what we're doing, no?

[Jeremy]

Thanks Allan - I just emailed you asking if there was an online copy of the rules - should have checked modified first

Regarding double over down vs barfly. The way many players do these moves is different!

For a barfly after you set the bag - many players - including Vasek and Ales - do a little sideways hop to bring the bag over to the side the dexes occur on. Yet for dod the bag is already on the side that the dexes occur on so the hop doesn't occur. This makes both moves certainly feel different! - different enough to be a unique? I think so.

And what if we change the move slightly? - Do you think that reaper, double atw (out-in) and double switch over are all the same move? Personally I find double atw much harder than reaper! Yet they are both just double down moves bailed to the same toe.

If you decided that barfly and double over down are the same move but that reaper and double around the world are different - than surely you're taking the exact same path that I thought should be taken - that the very easy 3 add moves should count as only 1 unique per side - regardless of the set - and the harder moves should be dependant on the set.

Also I find the difference between whirls off different sets to be very similar to the difference between double downs. The difference between pdx whirl and toe whirl feel pretty much the same as the difference between paradon and barfly (the magnitude of differnce - not the nature of the difference). Would you count toe whirl and pdx whirl as uniques? Obviously they have different add values - but I'm sure you would agree that what happens after the set is just as similar as the double down example. And would you carry on this logic for harder and harder moves? Pdx drifter is the same as drifter? Pdx blender is the same as blender?

And what if you add a spin into it. Are bullwhip and scorpions tails both uniques. I find that bullwhip and scorpions tail feel like the difference between barfly and down double down - but with a little more speed and a spin before the dexes.

I think that whatever definition is used for uniques - it should be a consisant definition - that holds true as the level of competition improves and applies for all moves - regardless of their difficulty.

Obviously my proposal doesn't quite manage to do this - because it makes an exception of the easiest moves - however I see this as the best solution - because apart from those easy moves it is consistant with what is defined as unique - and I think it's important to have some kind of rule to stop people from "unique hunting" using only easy moves.

[Allan]

I dunno. Maybe you're right I've spent all the footbag argument blood I had in me for the next two weeks on this one.

It was fun, and I did find that rule book thing that cleared that thing up a bit

Have fun out there in footbag land.

- a

[brian relly]

And would you carry on this logic for harder and harder moves? Pdx drifter is the same as drifter? Pdx blender is the same as blender?

A different set does not make a move unique unless the different set results in another add component, like a paradox add.

[james]

Thank you Stephan

Jeremy: It doesn't matter how differently they 'feel' in execution, THEY ARE THE SAME MOVE!!!!! The difference in 'feel' is actually just positioning your body so you can do that very same move the very same way.
As to the spinning, it is a set and thus has two different uniques for every different core move combined with it (ie gyro clipper-spinning clipper etc).


Combine this with what Allan said and the definition Stephan wrote and you have the final, FINAL final final resolution for this issue issue issue.
END OF DISCUSSION!!!

[Jeremy]

And would you carry on this logic for harder and harder moves? Pdx drifter is the same as drifter? Pdx blender is the same as blender?

A different set does not make a move unique unless the different set results in another add component, like a paradox add.

I think you've missed my point entirely and done very well out of quoting out of context!!

if paradon and barfly are the same move because they feel like the same move - why aren't toe whirl and pdx whirl? The difference between those moves is tiny - I'd say it's smaller than the difference between barfly and paradon. How can toe whirl and pdx whirl be uniques but barfly and paradon aren't?

Don't give me the crap about the extra add - I'm aware of that - I've been playing footbag for 3 years - I know how many adds moves are worth! It seems ridiculous that a move you can do pdx can count as two moves with the non pdx version - but a non pdx move does not. Blender can be two uniques but dyno can't - the only difference is the direction of the dexes.

[bob]

if paradon and barfly are the same move because they feel like the same move - why aren't toe whirl and pdx whirl? The difference between those moves is tiny - I'd say it's smaller than the difference between barfly and paradon. How can toe whirl and pdx whirl be uniques but barfly and paradon aren't?

this was my point quite a few posts ago. all moves that can be set from toe and from clipper will be affected.

I like the new rule. I like leaving it up to the tourney director to decide. however, for things like worlds, notice should be given like at least a year in advance for how it will be judged for those that start preparing runs that early. It's not fair they should be penalized for not knowing how the tourney is running the event.

bob

[james]

OMG

Paradon and barfly are not the same move because they feel like the same move, they are the same move because they ARE the same move.
And yes why indeed do some moves get paradox and not others? Well that's just how it happened and it ain't changing anytime soon.

Case closed.

[Jeremy]

I hope that nobody does their double over down and down double downs so that they feel the same. If you are doing those moves and they feel the same you have in my opinion shit technique and you are doing at least on of those moves badly if not "the" Paradon and barfly also do not feel the same way. If you think they do feel the same I suggest that you are planting both feet on your paradons before doing the dexes. In my opinion this looks ugly and makes it much more likely for you to "the" the moves or do them a lot lower than you should. I used to do my paradons like that until I saw them on video and also a player in the top 10 in the world for shred 30 told me how to do them nicely. How many people in the world have hit triple paradon? I can think of about 5 off the top of my head. How many have hit triple barfly? I can only think of one. So probably 5 times as many or more people can hit one move than the other - but you think they are the same?

And do you honestly find clip>op out>same out>same toe the same as toe>same out>same out>same toe?

These moves (clip set double switch and double atw) are just double down moves bailed to a same toe.

I can hit datw pretty easily and I find it way way easier than clip set same side double switch.

[Posi-Cole]

Word.

Barfly and Paradon are DEFINITELY not the same move.

[james]

Has the whole world gone MAD???
Mr. Hobson, I'm afraid you're DEFINITELY wrong.

I give up. I just hope for the sake of footbag most people know that paradon, barfly, dod, ddd are the same move.

[Jeremy]

So you also think that triple barfly and triple paradon and triple over down and down triple down are all the same move?

Have you hit any of those moves?

I have hit two out of the 4 and can say with all certainty that there is an enourmas difference between the ones I have hit and the ones I haven't.

[james]

I've already given you the definition of what a unique move is.

In the case of triple over down there is a slight misunderstanding because that move cannot (or is extremely hard to) be done all in downtime.
When someone does a triple over down or a tridon they are actually using uptime (ie muted fairy or atomic), which makes the move easier. When you do a triple barfly there is less opportunity to use uptime so it is a lot harder. BUT, IF you could do them entirely in downtime than they are all the SAME move.
As it is now tod and tridon are seemingly so much easier (than trifly) because they're not the full downtime version of the move.

[Jeremy]

what if you do your paradons with the first dex uptime?

[james]

Than you're a sissy

It's a crispy paradon, but still not a different move, just a conveniently easier way to do the move.
Just like fairy butterfly and muted fairy butterfly are the same move. Muted fairy butterfly is not a paradon however.

[wolfpac444]

Wait, James, do you think crispy paradon (tapdown) and paradon are distinct?

[james]

First of all, a crispy paradon is not a tapdown.
Secondly, yes, tapdown and paradon are disctinct.