Deer Hunting

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 28 Nov 2004 01:00

I'm not surprised it actually costs more to execute them than to keep them penned up, I just didn't want to go out on a limb and say anything I wasn't willing to back up with fact. Thanks Frenzal.

Also, as a Christian I don't think it's right for the government to play God in taking someones life. Even if I wasn't religious I still don't think the execution of a murderer reflects good on a society...

sniikeri · Post by **sniikeri** » 28 Nov 2004 05:11

slapdash21 wrote:but how much would 20 years of food cost america? its like we are paying this guys room and board FOR killing 6 people. people who have commited no crime and are just poor are living in worse conditions than life-long jail-birds. and i do agree with the eye-for-an-eye concept...he kills people, he gets killed. if it was possible i would have him killed 6 times...

Like Gareth said, perhaps the US should try making a few more friends than enemies. I think that death penalty is definitely a brutal punishment (though it would've been done very clean: first knock him/her out with drugs and then spray some poison in his/her veins.).
It's a cheap way to punish criminals instead of locking them in jail, but doesn't belong to the 21st century.

The US should put more money for the health care (escpecially for the mental one) and government should pay it. Let me tell you why: already about every third US inhabitant (legal or not) lives under the line which considers someone to be poor or not. These people can't afford an insurance or anything like that., so there might be thousands or even millions of people who are not completely stable.
Instead US government pumps money for War For Cheap Oil, which makes more desperate people at home.
--> more problems.

The death penalty doesn't remove the problem, or does it? It can only weaken it. People start thinking too late. We all should think how to stop the development of these problems than trying to stop them when they get too worse.

That's why we should start doing something to prevent things like the green
house effect. The US is a very conservative country I can see. It isn't doing anything to stop REAL international problems though it's the only great power (remember the Kioto-contract).

When I look the Bush re-election now, I can see there one good thing: he'll
be the one who'll pay the consequences of his own, stupid politic.
Is it freedom or liberty that you can carry a gun if you want? Quite cheap prize for getting killed by one, not stable person.

Sorry that my post gets a bit off-topic.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 28 Nov 2004 09:08

bah...everyone is against me..haha. Well, if it really does cost more to execute someone, than it freakin shouldnt. i will readily admit the legal system in this country is really screwed up and slow with everything...people shouldnt be on death row for years, and all these appeals really shouldnt be happening. in some cases, the appeals make sense, like when there is a question about guilt. but there isnt always. the US legal system is definitely flawed. ((oh, and im actually a Chrsitian too...not all Christians are against capital punishment))

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 28 Nov 2004 09:45

slapdash21 wrote:i will readily admit the legal system in this country is really screwed up and slow with everything...people shouldnt be on death row for years, and all these appeals really shouldnt be happening. in some cases, the appeals make sense, like when there is a question about guilt. but there isnt always. the US legal system is definitely flawed. ((oh, and im actually a Chrsitian too...not all Christians are against capital punishment))

"As of 1993, 48 innocents had been released from death row since 1976." And from what I read that does NOT include the people who were released because of a bad job done by cops/prosecutors etc. (failure to do blah blah and such). Sorry I don't have more up to date numbers, but it doesn't seem very good for the country to murder even ONE innocent person. You are right, the legal system is "really screwed up," so why would you trust them to have the power to take away people's lives?

_________________
Emily Kulczyk

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?" --Holly Near

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 28 Nov 2004 11:55

bah...everyone is against me..haha. Well, if it really does cost more to execute someone, than it freakin shouldnt. i will readily admit the legal system in this country is really screwed up and slow with everything...people shouldnt be on death row for years, and all these appeals really shouldnt be happening. in some cases, the appeals make sense, like when there is a question about guilt. but there isnt always. the US legal system is definitely flawed. ((oh, and im actually a Chrsitian too...not all Christians are against capital punishment))

Yea most Christians are for capital punishment, but then turn around and claim to babies are being masses murdered in abortion. The religious right is hypocritical on almost every posistion.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 28 Nov 2004 12:00

the difference is that babies havent committed any crime, they are completely innocent. any true Christian knows that God isn't against just killing...he had the Israelites wage war on dozens of nations in the days of the old testament, and even in current times God isnt against a just war, or the execution of the most evil people who deserve it

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 28 Nov 2004 14:35

Yea most Christians are for capital punishment, but then turn around and claim to babies are being masses murdered in abortion. The religious right is hypocritical on almost every posistion.

Yeh I always think that's kind of wierd, arn't we supposed to be against violence?

ShredStylez · Post by **ShredStylez** » 28 Nov 2004 15:28

I think they should execute the man. He's on someone elses property in their tree stand and winds of killing six people. Thats ridiculous.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 28 Nov 2004 19:40

ShredStylez wrote:I think they should execute the man. He's on someone elses property in their tree stand and winds of killing six people. Thats ridiculous.

Yep. Not only does he kill six people, but he does it on their property and even in their tree!!!!! OMG he should be tortured to death like a Muslim.

In all seriousness - I think the fact that he killed six people is the issue - not him being on their property or in their tree. I am opposed to killing people no matter where they are - I don't think it's any more wrong to kill people from trees, buildings, in the US, in Iraq, in jail, in a boat - whatever.

I really dislike the argument that the death penalty should be abolished because it's more expensive than sending the people to jail. That's saying that if it was cheaper to kill people we would. Even if it was free to execute people I would still be just as opposed to the death penalty.

As I see it there are two possibilities as to why someone would commit a capital crime.

1. They have something mentally wrong with them. A "normal" person doesn't want to kill people - it's only sick people that want to kill lots of people. Why are they sick? Either they are born that way or some external part of their environment - probably either parents or society - makes them that way. These people deserve our help. Yes they are no doubt too dangerous to be allowed into society - but they have a problem that they shouldn't be punished for - but helped to overcome. Spending the rest of your life in a psychiatric prison is not something anybody would want to do - but it's clearly the most compassionate and humane option. If we can learn to understand why these people commit such actions - we will hopefully be able to prevent them. I know that the victims or relatives of the victims always complain that the punishment is not harsh enough etc. But in my opinion wishing pain on somebody else shows that you're sick and need help. No doubt if somebody close to you gets brutally murdered or whatever you are bound to be negatively mentally effected - you need to be treated for that sickness - and it disgusts me that people feel pleasure in somebody else’s pain or death - no matter what that person has done. I'm not just saying this without experience. 9 years ago a man named Martin Bryant killed 34 people in one day - and injured many more - in a shooting at a tourist attraction about 3 hours drive from my home. While I wasn't close to anybody who was killed or injured in that event - in a state with a population of less than half a million - it's obvious that I knew lots of people who were close to people killed or injured in the event. Yet I wish no harm to Martin - clearly he's a very sick person and it is a very tragic event for so many people to be effected but hurting another person won't make things better.

2. The other possibility is that the man completely normal - if so that means that any one of us could snap for no reason and go on a killing spree. That's a lot more of a scary thought and a lot less likely I think - but if that's the case and it's just random - why should he be punished at all?

It seems obvious to me that the first possibility is what's going on with crimes like this - sick people that need help.

It makes me so angry that so many Christians support the death penalty - despite everything Jesus says and the way many of them act like they have more morals than an atheist like me - yet enjoy people suffering and dieing. It makes me sick.

sniikeri · Post by **sniikeri** » 30 Nov 2004 05:01

slapdash21 wrote:the difference is that babies havent committed any crime, they are completely innocent. any true Christian knows that God isn't against just killing...he had the Israelites wage war on dozens of nations in the days of the old testament, and even in current times God isnt against a just war, or the execution of the most evil people who deserve it

They deserve it, huh? Says who? You? I think that only God has right to decide about our lives.

Christians are supposed to love our enemies like ourselves. People use their religion to their own purposes and that's wrong. Ten commandments forbid it.

God isn't a Santa or genie in a bottle who you can just call when you'd like to win in a lottery. God doesn't force us to do anything. He gives us strenght.

I sometimes think myself that someone might deserve death but stay alive. Also many innocent people die. Some people might think that death is a better option: think about Heaven, a place where you don't feel any pain and there's no suffering.
But I'm going to live my life on Earth 'til it ends and I ain't gonna end it myself. We can also make this place better.

Sorry about this another off-topic post.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 30 Nov 2004 08:00

Leaving aside all religious, monetary, and human-rights considerations, the death penalty, as I see it, has this one major problem:
New evidence sometimes comes to light that completely and undisputably clears the names of those who have been convicted. Sometimes this takes twenty years to happen. Related to this, judges, juries, and prosecutors are only human, and thus prone to simply make mistakes. Innocent people are imprisoned. Innocent people are sentenced to death. If an innocent person is imprisoned for life, and years later their name is cleared, they can be released. They might even be compensated somehow for all the years they had been wrongly imprisoned. When an executed prisoner is cleared (and this has happened before), how do you then try to make it up to them? How do you reverse the error of their wrongful conviction? You don't. You cannot undo that mistake once that person has been killed. Death is irreversible, but courts are not infallible. A reasonable legal system should require that it allows for the possibility that its decision be reversible at some later time if new evidence warrents this. That alone seems like reason enough to sentence far fewer people to death, if not abolish the death penalty altogether.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 30 Nov 2004 09:50

Jeremy is right, he killed those people, that should be the issue, not the trespassing.

Later, we will learn more about the situation and events that occured before the shootings.

Race will absolutely play a part in this story. It will get ugly later(and now)

-n

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 30 Nov 2004 13:11

They deserve it, huh? Says who? You? I think that only God has right to decide about our lives.

Christians are supposed to love our enemies like ourselves. People use their religion to their own purposes and that's wrong. Ten commandments forbid it.

there are dozens of examples where God uses people to kill other people who had commited sins, even lesser (though all sins are equal in God's eyes) than murder.

such as 1 Samuel 30:1-20 where the Amalekites attack David's camp, killing and pillaging, and David asks God if he should follow them and attack them, and God says yes. David then follows them, and kills most of them.
God is full of love and mercy, but justice as well.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 30 Nov 2004 13:32

But didn't Jesus say things like:

"He has not sinned cast the first stone"
and
"Turn the other cheek"

And what if you're wrong and God doesn't exist? That means you are supporting murder!! If I'm wrong and God does exist - the people will get justice when they go to hell and I can't imagine that God wil punish me for advocating compassion...

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 30 Nov 2004 13:38

if we are to not cast stones, or not cast convictions, then are all sins pardonable? should no judgements be made for any wrong? who are you to say anyone should be imprisoned for stealing? why not feel compassion and let all the criminals and rapists go completely free.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 30 Nov 2004 13:45

slapdash21 wrote:the difference is that babies havent committed any crime

There are no crimes, all crimes are arrbitrary rules designed to benefit some group, or controll another.

God isn't against just killing . . .

If I might quote from the 10 commandments

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 30 Nov 2004 13:49

anti social behaviour should be treated in a way to protect society and to keep it safe. Obviously every individual is part of society - even the really crazy people who commit henious acts of violence - so they need to be treated in a way that will both protect society from allowing those events from happening again and giving the person as much opportunity to get better as possible.

It might be just my opinion but there is a big difference between killing somebody and locking them up. The rapist should not be locked up to punish him or to deter other people from commiting the crime - the rapist should be locked up to protect the rest of society in case he or she re-offends. We should aim to create a society where people do not want to rape, murder or harm other people - and the few exceptions should be isolated until we can be sure that they won't re-offend.

Lets try and make decisions based in what's in the best interests of everybody - not what's in the best interests of some people. I don't believe it is in the best interests of murderers, rapists or other criminals to let the grow free. Although obviously the nature of the case is important. A person who steals food because they are hungry should not be locked in prison - that would achieve nothing.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 30 Nov 2004 14:01

slapdash21 wrote:if we are to not cast stones, or not cast convictions, then are all sins pardonable? should no judgements be made for any wrong? who are you to say anyone should be imprisoned for stealing? why not feel compassion and let all the criminals and rapists go completely free.

Judging is for God to do, not you. The laws of your country were not written by God, and to use your religion to feel good about holding people to a human standard of behavior is a marked lack of comprehension of the teachings.
*<--you are Here

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The Teachings of every major religion
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slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 05 Dec 2004 11:47

the fact is, the laws of this nation were originally written by people who believed strongly in the bible. a lot of the constitution was based on biblical principals, and only now is our nation moving in a direction away from the original biblical ideals. God is in support of the institution of government, it says so directly in the bible. if the laws of your land do not contradict the laws of the bible (as in, did God support the death penalty in some, obviously not all, cases, and the answer is yes), those laws are to be followed. do likewise.