Is paradox whirl really `paradox?`

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 30 Nov 2004 22:42

Ah, paradox. The cool sounding term which is so hard to define, and has started so many arguments. In general, I think paradox moves do merit an extra `body` add over their non-paradox counter parts. But paradox whirl I think doesn`t fit this criteria.

Before I state my case, let me first define paradox, the way I understand it.

`Paradox` is a subset of the `body` add category. The body add (addition of difficulty) is awarded to tricks which involve spins, jumps, symposium, and other significant body contortions which add to the difficulty of a trick. In the case of paradox, the body add is awarded due to a `double hip-pivot.` Your hip pivots one direction, then pivots back in the other direction.

Lets look at some paradox tricks and their non-paradox components.

Pdx mirage: In paradox mirage, you have to pivot your hips towards the set, then pivot your hips back to get the dexterity. Clipper set mirage, or toe set mirage do not require this `double hip-pivot` to get the dexterity.

Spinning pdx mirage: The concept of spinning paradox tricks is relatively recent, but is now accepted in worlds scoring. Why? Because when you complete a spin, executing a dex with the non-set leg requires you to change your momentum by stopping, pivoting your hips, and coming back. Marius, void, spinning pdlo all `feel` paradox, because in all of these cases you have to reverse your momentum and double hip pivot.

Pdx legbeater: Why does matador receive a paradox add, and barfry doesn`t? Because in matador, your hips double pivot: once to clear the set, and then once more to bring your leg back under and complete a same side component. In barfry, your hips only pivot once when they complete the first dex, but they don`t pivot back since you are executing a far component.

I think you see where this is going. In paradox whirl, you pivot once, and then you fall into a whirl. There is no double hip-pivot involved. Barfly has the exact same pivot to it, but we don`t give it a paradox add. `Paradox` whirl does not have the same double hip-pivot which every other paradox trick has, and so awarding it a body add is not justified.

Is paradox whirl harder than whirl? Maybe. Is far reverse swirl harder than reverse swirl. Yep. Is ducking same clipper harder than ducking clipper? Probably. But does `paradox` whirl meet the criteria necessary to be awarded a paradox (body) add? I firmly believe the answer is no.

Stand up right now, out of your chair. Do the motion for paradox torque. There, feel your hips pivot one way, and then the other? Now do the motion for `paradox` whirl. Hip pivots one way, then you fall into whirl.

On a related note, I recently started a thread where I challenged people to hit a fearless combo of 4 or more tricks, which didn`t involve a pdx whirl component. There is a reason that blurry whirl, ps whirl, spinning pdx whirl, and pdx blender are some of the easiest and most common 5s out there. I think the reason is directly related to the fact that `paradox` whirl is currently being awarded a bogus add.

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 30 Nov 2004 22:58

i agree that paradox whirl doesn't have that double hip pivot thing that most other paradox moves. but paradox also seems to imply a full dex. paradox mirage= full dex, far pick up= no full dex, pdx eggbeater= full dex, far leg over= no full dex, pdx whirl= full dex, far reverse whirl=no full dex. perhaps we need to look at the full dex aspect of this move as opposed to the double hip-pivot in the application of paradox. or just remove paradox all together... and x-dex as well. if you want to talk about a pdx move with no bouble hip pivot, or a hip pivot at all, pdx illusion is a prime candidate.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 30 Nov 2004 23:04

hacksterbator wrote:if you want to talk about a pdx move with no bouble hip pivot, or a hip pivot at all, pdx illusion is a prime candidate.

I agree that the full dex question is a part of the paradox question. Dexterity and Body can be very related categories. Symposium and Paradox tricks are given body adds, because of how they interact with dexterity.

I disagree about pdx illusion though... I think it does have a double hip pivot. Once to turn towards the bag, and the second one happens as you complete the dex. Its subtle, but its definitely there if you are doing it cleanly.

ShredPirate · Post by **ShredPirate** » 30 Nov 2004 23:05

bravo ken.

i agree with pretty much everything here. and not just because these are moves i can't do very well

i always thought it was silly that spinning whirl got more adds than gyro whirl. and blurry whirl got more than stepping whirl. who knows, maybe someone will actually do something about this, and drop the paradox add out of all whirl moves. highly unlikely though.

max · Post by **max** » 01 Dec 2004 01:09

to chris:

let's not confuse everything here.
I think this mostly boils down to the no "no pdx add after another component" debate.

True gyro whirl and spinning pdx whirl are of equal difficulty
(downtime) symp. whirl and ps whirl also
diving whirl and tomahawk are as hard
stepping whirl and blurry whirl also.
this is not the case for whirl compared to pdx whirl. Whirl is even a set these days.

But this applies for most (all?) pdx moves...

As for the double hip pivot Ken, you are correct. Whirl is not the trick where you can feel it the most (I'd say flux is up there though).

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 01 Dec 2004 03:13

I voted that Pdx Whirl shouldn't be paradox...

But I did this for one reason.
This can raise the level of freestyle, bring more variety in most players' runs... it will set the bar higher for technical-variety events like shred30.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 01 Dec 2004 03:48

Lets face it - adds are about difficulty - that's why we have a pdx add and an x dex. They just aren't very accurate. Compare whirl to pdx whirl. Or better yet add a dex and compare whirr to pdx whirr because I can hit whirl and pdx whirl easily already. Which is easier - pdx whirr or normal whirr?

Pdx whirr definitly deserves a pdx add - I don't think it's ever been hit - although I know a few people who are close. If you disagree with this you defintily won't get a christmas card from me this year

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 01 Dec 2004 03:57

I can't even get close to Whirr...
But now I'm schooling my Whirls and Paradox Whirls... I'm doing a lot of them... And a full-downtime Whirl and a Paradox Whirl are equal in difficulty. Of course I'm doing my Whirls more consistently that Paradox Whirls, because I do it at peek time. And I'm schooling downtime whirls while schooling 'paradox' whirls.

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 01 Dec 2004 11:44

Jeremy wrote:If you disagree with this you defintily won't get a christmas card from me this year

I agree, I agree, I agree!!!

my adress is:

Itäharjunkatu 16
20540 Turku
Finland / EU

Well... seriously I think Pdx Whirl has more double hip pivot than Whirl.
There is no pivot or pilot in Whirl,
but there is somekind of twist in Pdx Whirl at least, so that makes it harder than Whirl.
AND PDX TRICKS ARE PaRaDoX BECAUSE THEY ARE HARDER THAN THE OTHER ONES... - or at least someone could think so, but that was just bullshit... or cowshit. At least it would be logical. Fuck rulez - go adds? WTF?

ouch... I need to go to sleep...
Oh - You should start writing your card Jeremy, 'cause it takes some time to travel to the other side of the world

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 01 Dec 2004 11:51

Depends on what you meean by paradox.

I would say it is the paradox version of whirl, using my definition o f paradox.

I would also say there is no double hip pivot, and no reason for a bonus add to be awarded to the trick.

reni · Post by **reni** » 01 Dec 2004 15:10

Jeremy wrote:Lets face it - adds are about difficulty - that's why we have a pdx add and an x dex. They just aren't very accurate. (...)

Who said that adds are about difficulty? I think they are more about the structure of the tricks. If people wouldn't misunderstand the idea of adds the paradox and x-dex debates wouldn't be so interesting.

good job guys, those comments helped to make some clearness... did you know that the winners of shred30 contests have to be good in using as much trick components (adds) as possible.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 01 Dec 2004 21:00

Depends on what you meean by paradox.

Care to elaborate a little?

I would say it is the paradox version of whirl, using my definition o f paradox.

So you're sayin "yes, it is Paradox Whirl"...

I would also say there is no double hip pivot, and no reason for a bonus add to be awarded to the trick.

...but it can be a paradox trick that doesn't get a paradox add? Come on, Cam; please make a little more sense!

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 01 Dec 2004 21:28

here's what I think:

1stly:
Paradox whirl is paradox. C-fan, I believe that the way YOU perform whirl is a version that has removed the paradox component. It can be performed paradox. . .maybe you just dont hit it that way. Maybe I should get the add for it but you shouldnt, hehe. BTW, pdx mirage can be performed without a hip pivot, as can pdx eggbeater, as can . . . so does that mean that they shouldnt be receiving the pdx add either?

2ndly:
In response to:
"There is a reason that blurry whirl, ps whirl, spinning pdx whirl, and pdx blender are some of the easiest and most common 5s out there. I think the reason is directly related to the fact that `paradox` whirl is currently being awarded a bogus add."

What if they are just easy 5s to you? What if they are just common b/c they are flashy moves that players want to learn to hit? What if it is because they are easier to link out of than triple-dexing 5-add moves?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 01 Dec 2004 21:37

The simplified version goes like this. . .

1) a paradox version of a trick is obtained by switching the leg which performs the first dexterity and keeping everything else in the trick relatively the same. (if you are looking at the jobs, switch the same or op of the first dex, and leave the rest the same)

1.a) If the bag passes behind the body, paradox is now reversed from the regular definition of paradox, and the original non-paradox motion becomes the paradox version of the trick.

3) An extra body add is awarded when the motion of the body causes the appearance of the bag to have moved from one side, to the other side, and back at least to the middle of the body, without the bag passing behind the body.

3a) Not all paradox tricks are worthy of the extra add, and some non-paradox tricks are.

Wim · Post by **Wim** » 02 Dec 2004 03:06

To make things more complicated:

First of all: I completely agree with Ken that there is less pivot in pdx whirl than say pdx dlo... However I don't think pdx whirl should lose the body add.
I thought that pdx was a concept that involves A pivot (not necessarily more than one), and that it's a concept that has to do with the set of a trick. IMO the 'paradox' hip pivot that accompanies pdx dex is done as the bag leaves the set foot, so that by the time the bag is at its peak, you have completed the twist.

In this definition pdx whirl qualifies for the body add, but that's only due to my definition/conception of pdx.

I think there should be clarity about what pdx means before anything else; but as it is there seem to be a handful of definitions out there that are not always reconcilable........

I wonder if my definition is wrong. Anyway, I vote pro body add.

Anz · Post by **Anz** » 02 Dec 2004 06:33

If Kenny Shults invented paradox just to confuse people it sure has done it's job...

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 02 Dec 2004 08:07

Aaaahhhhhh!!!! Not the great paradox debate all over again!

This topic has been argued and re-argued so many times....
The conclusion I have come to is that there is a single hip pivot in pdx whirl...not enough to justify the paradox add, yet the inherent difficulty is there.

Allen Haggett said in the great paradox debate

To me, paradox is an "unexpected" change in direction that makes a move appreciably *different* (sometimes harder).

I completely agree with this...the double hip pivot is only a way of quantifying paradox on certain moves. There is denfinently not double hip pivot in blur, but no one argues that blur is not paradox....why do people always pick on pdx whirl components? (i think they're damn hard) Also the key is that the paradox makes the trick different(see barfly vs paradon thread). Don't worry about adds, cuz the tricks stepping ss mirage and blur are almost identicle in difficulty, yet one gets an extra add.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 02 Dec 2004 08:19

As to the basic question, can whirl be paradox, I'm not sure. I just felt like offering up some comments.

Ken said:

I think the reason is directly related to the fact that `paradox` whirl is currently being awarded a bogus add.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how you look at it. For example,
Max said :

True gyro whirl and spinning pdx whirl are of equal difficulty
(downtime) symp. whirl and ps whirl also
diving whirl and tomahawk are as hard
stepping whirl and blurry whirl also.
this is not the case for whirl compared to pdx whirl. Whirl is even a set these days.

Maybe the problem is not that Blurry Whirl and Tomahawk are getting a bogus ADD, but that Stepping Whirl and Diving Whirl are getting gyped on adds, not getting some add that they might deserve. So, Stepping Whirl isn't paradox. Okay, maybe neither is Tomahawk or Far Whirl. Maybe we can think of why that far whirl is harder than near whirl and think of a new difficulty concept around this principle. I think it kind of relates to the following:

Ken said:

I agree that the full dex question is a part of the paradox question. Dexterity and Body can be very related categories. Symposium and Paradox tricks are given body adds, because of how they interact with dexterity.

The thing that occured to me is that the body ADD in question, paradox, and in a similar way symposium, as I think Ken is suggesting, are not exactly body ADDs in their own right, but rather DEX MODIFIERS. What I mean is that some body ADDs exist on their own, with or without a DEX. You can spin, duck, or do a flyer without any dexes involved. Then there is Paradox and Symposium, which are "body ADDs" that can only exist to describe how a Dex is done. Unlike spins, ducks, and flyers, there cannot be a Paradox or Symposium move without a Dexterity. Perhaps we should distinguish between these kinds of Body ADDs, and maybe re-classify Paradox and Symposium as something other than a Body ADD. I'm going to go a little farther and suggest that the BODY category might need even more attention/reordering than just that. Think of it this way: the Dex category is pretty clear-cut. A dex is when you circle your leg around the bag while its in the air. Even with the various ways of doing dexes its still pretty specific (except for Rakes being considered Dexes). Cross-body, Unusual, and Delay are likewise pretty specific. Body, though, is a much broader category. It has more variety in it than any other category. A spin is a body. A duck is a body. A jumping kick or jumping stall is a body, a double-hip-pivot (paradox) is a body, a missing plant (symposium) is sometimes a body. A blind catch is a body. A roll down your leg or across some other part of you is also a body. Its not nearly so specific as the other Categories. Its been bothering me a little bit. Especially when some Body ADDs can only exist as a modifier to a dex, like Paradox. Maybe if we cleared up the Body ADD category, the Paradox confusion might become clearer.

Maybe paradox is still a Body ADD, but it can be rethought to modify more stuff. I sometimes like to think of paradox in simpler terms. I say to myself (or some newbie) that paradox basically means doing a trick from the other side of your body such that it makes the trick harder. Or, paradox means doing a trick "the long way around" instead of taking the direct route. Some years back, we sometimes called a Zulu style dive a Paradox Dive. You might say that an Inspin is a Paradox Spin (same spin direction, same ending stall, but set it from the other side such that you had to take the long way around to get to the same finish?).

So where am I going with all this? I don't know. Just some food for thought.

Josh B · Post by **Josh B** » 02 Dec 2004 21:47

there IS a double pivot, just not both in the hips. for pdx whirl, one is in the hips, and the other is in the leg. If someone did a trick that looked like a pdx whirling legover (pdx DLO) this shouldnt negate the pdx add just because the second pivot is from the legs and not the hip.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 02 Dec 2004 22:02

I think a lot of players these days negate the pdx in pdx moves by jumping sideways on the set rather than doing the double hip movement. Vasek is a good example - when he hits pdx torque he stays facing the same direction until the first dex and he only moves his hips one way - to make the dex and osis - he doesn't do two hip movements at all.

I think pdx whirl should get a pdx add because you have less time to do it - significantly less time - which is why whirr is easier than pdx whirr - if you could start the first dex of whirr as quickly as you could with pdx whirr it would be easy. But you can't.

I also think it is criminal that somebody named a move "mobius" and it doesn't involve pdx at all. Mobius should be a spinning pdx torque and gyro pdx torque should be marius or whatever you want - that would make way more sense.

Edit: When I become Grand Master of The World - my first law will be to outlaw the usage of the word "mobius" without some reference either German Mathematicians, strips of paper, or pdxs in some way.

modified

Is paradox whirl really `paradox?`

Please read the first post before voting.

Is paradox whirl really `paradox?`