Proper English :)

Post by **Allan** » 07 Dec 2004 19:08

This backs up what I've been ranting about for ages now:

http://news.com.com/What+corporate+Amer ... 81494.html

Also, check this guy out:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Basically, he talks about what a travesty the American school system is and how he quit teaching because he "didn't want to hurt children anymore".

EDIT: the next page I visited was this:

http://science.slashdot.org/science/04/ ... 146&tid=14

The New York Times reports that the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has released its results (pdf) for a test of mathematical skills given to 15 year olds in 40 different countries. A few apparent anomalies: The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third) while the Czech Republic, which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends, ranked in the top 10. Further, only about 1/3 of US kids reported that they did not feel as though they were good at math, whereas about 2/3 of Koreans reported this--and the Koreans ranked in the top three. 'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'"

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 07 Dec 2004 21:46

I tend to use correction punctuation/capitalization even when writing on AIM or MSN just because it helps get you in the habit.

Either way though, the American school system is crap. It is not only lack of money, but lack of priority that hurts kids in the long run. As a Sophmore in high school I can also say their are some social issues that effect the way kids learn (Yes drugs though most wouldn't want to hear it, and not having an emphasis on educational achievement as being anything worthwhile).

I've always wondered, how does Canadia rank in all these tests? I would figured you guys would only be slightly better than us, what with similiar cultures/school systems.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 07 Dec 2004 22:18

Allan, just thought Id chime in:

There are cultural differences between asians and Americans that may account for the statements you refer to above. First, when Korens say that they do not consider themselves good at math, it is likely that they simply do not want to overstate their abilities; humity is key, rather than promotion of individualism or self-glory. Contrastingly, Americans in particular prefer to boast about their "accomplishments" and are not shy to say they are good at something or perhaps even "better" than others, when clearly we are not. Thus, mediocre American math students might be more likely to say they are good math students than are good korean math students.

Also, when you say that:" the Czech Republic . . . spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends" that is misleading because their country's population is much more than 3 times smaller than the population of the US. What would be meaningful here is per capita spending statistics from both countries.

Muffinman · Post by **Muffinman** » 07 Dec 2004 23:19

I used to write horrifically on the internet, but have recently discovered a love for english. I also try to write properly on MSN, however I usually spell words like "there" and "Korean" correctly. @________@

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 08 Dec 2004 03:26

Senor Grommet wrote: Also, when you say that:" the Czech Republic . . . spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends" that is misleading because their country's population is much more than 3 times smaller than the population of the US. What would be meaningful here is per capita spending statistics from both countries.

I'm pretty sure that those statistics are proportional - the Czechs spend 1/3 per person - not as a gross value.

check out http://www.nationmaster.com to check out the stats on education - I believe of developed nations in literacy - the US is rated 25 of 28 and of all countries the US is rated 68th - so there are 40 non developed countries above you

.

But it is good you are spending money on killing Muslims instead of spending money on education.

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 08 Dec 2004 05:01

Jeremy wrote: But it is good you are spending money on killing Muslims instead of spending money on education.

I laughed out loud at that, but then felt instantly guilty

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 08 Dec 2004 19:20

Jeremy, if you have nothing nice to say, then please, say nothing at all.

Which leads me to: if you were to censor yourself in the above manner, all you'd be able to post is in footblogs, about touch "footy." Enough put downs. We know you hate the US. Not every post must reflect it.

Post by **Allan** » 08 Dec 2004 23:14

BainbridgeShred wrote: I've always wondered, how does Canadia rank in all these tests? I would figured you guys would only be slightly better than us, what with similiar cultures/school systems.

Yeah, actually, I was wondering that myself after I posted this. I just don't have time to dig that out of the source right now.

I think our (Canadian) system is likely marginally better, but not by much.

John Taylor Gatto, whom I linked to above, had some super interesting things to say. I have a 14 meg mp3 interview with him that I'll post a link to in here soon.

And Grommet, ironically, I forgot to put quotation marks around the text referring to all the stats there, so that wasn't me saying anything, I copy and pasted from the slashdot.org summary.

I also find your comments regarding "cultural differences" puzzling as these tests do not simply ask students how good they think they are at math; they actually test mathematical skills. So I'm not sure how relevant your statment is.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 08 Dec 2004 23:45

"Further, only about 1/3 of US kids reported that they did not feel as though they were good at math, whereas about 2/3 of Koreans reported this--and the Koreans ranked in the top three"

This quote implies these students were asked how good they thought they were in Math. I was pointing out that the inconsistenties in their answers might stem from cultural differences, having nothing to do with actual math ability.

Telecaster · Post by **Telecaster** » 09 Dec 2004 02:32

Ahhhh NewSpeak!

Post by **Allan** » 09 Dec 2004 11:32

Senor Grommet wrote:This quote implies these students were asked how good they thought they were in Math. I was pointing out that the inconsistenties in their answers might stem from cultural differences, having nothing to do with actual math ability.

So, does this mean are you in support of the current state of the US school system? Or were you just pointing this out for the sake of...?

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 09 Dec 2004 11:34

i spell out essentially everything online...though as you can see, my punctuation is lacking. but it does irk me when people shorten EVERY word and phrase. you are having an abbreviated conversation online, so you cant even see or hear each other...its like the closest you can get to not talking at all to someone while still communicating.
also, people who misuse there, their, and they're irritate me. but if english isnt your first language, its understandable. and you cant only blame the US school system, because some people who go through it come out speaking properly.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 09 Dec 2004 11:48

I'm Shocked !

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Dec 2004 18:25

Senor Grommet wrote:Jeremy, if you have nothing nice to say, then please, say nothing at all.

Which leads me to: if you were to censor yourself in the above manner, all you'd be able to post is in footblogs, about touch "footy." Enough put downs. We know you hate the US. Not every post must reflect it.

You probably haven't realised but there is a difference between hating a government and a country and there is a difference between being critical of something and hating it.

I don't see any put downs in my post. This is a topic about US education so I posted some statistics about US education. They are perfectly relevant. Would you prefer it if I lied and made up the statistics or read them but didn’t comment because they make you feel bad? Sometimes the truth hurts but you still have to deal with it unless you are happy with those statistics.

My comment about killing Muslims is also true – you can’t deny that Muslims are getting killed in Iraq. Australia is also responsible and I’d be happy to comment on what I think of Australia’s government too if you like. The fact is we have the equal highest literacy rate in the world – so our education isn’t as desperately in need of funds as yours – we aren’t choosing to fund killing people instead of funding education. Obviously there are other things that we could be spending money on instead of war – like that fact that Aborigines in Australia have a life expectancy 30 years younger than a non indigenous Australian. Not that any of that is relevant because we aren’t discussing Australia. I am an opinionated person and I speak my opinions openly. I don’t believe in censorship of opinions and if you don’t like my opinions don’t read them – I certainly won’t change my posting style for you.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 09 Dec 2004 19:03

"Hating a country is only naive as loving one."-Dan Fearey

This isn't necisarily directed at anyone, but I love this quote of mine and I use it any chance I see a remote opportunity :

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 09 Dec 2004 19:11

Allan:
I was just posting for the sake of . . . just adding a little information to the discussionn not necessarily contradicting what you said or the points you were trying to make. I was adding a little cultural sensitivity.

And as for you Jeremy, posting what you post is your right. I cannot take it away from you nor do I wish to. But I will say that it is annoying to read how critical you are of everything America does/how much you dislike America. I mean, its praqctically in every post of yours. It is a shame your life revolves so heavily around the decision-making of the US.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Dec 2004 19:31

You are entitled to your own opinions. Personally I think you know nothing about me. I watch between an hour and three hours of news and current affairs every night - I read at least one newspaper every day - sometimes more. I also read a lot of books about global current events. The fact that I appear "anti american" on these forums is only because American politics are what are brought up most of the time. I can think of the leaders of almost all the countries in Europe, Asia and South America - as well as many in other parts of the world and I could comment on my thoughts on the politics of pretty much any country you mention. I think I've said this before but I am more obsessed with politics - especially international politics than I am with footbag - those are my two main passions.

On the other main forum where I post I am probably seen as "anti Australia" - because it is an Australian forum and as such most of the political discussion is about Australian politics. If I posted on a forum where most of the political discussion was about Myanmar - I would definitly be seen as "anti Burman"

But in all honesty how many people even know what the capital of Myanmar is on this forum or where the country is, what the main religion is, what the human rights issues are like? I'm not criticising you for not knowing those things - different people have different interests.

Dan: that quote is a good one: except most of the time when people are talking about international politics - they are talking about the government of a country when they make comments about a country. I know some people on this forum don't like that - but it's pretty standardly accepted. I have made an effort in recent times to remember to include the word "government" in my posts on this forum but it is hard to remember.

Frenzal · Post by **Frenzal** » 09 Dec 2004 20:37

If we're talking about democracies then you don't strictly need to include "government" as a disclaimer. If New Zealand's government does something stupid (like keeping someone imprisoned for two years without just cause), then New Zealand does something stupid and via extrapolation so do I. Our governments are representations of the populace. That's the beauty and the bane of democracy.

HackyRichard · Post by **HackyRichard** » 10 Dec 2004 06:33

WARNING MAJORLY OFF TOPIC, I just had to answer Jeremy's questions sorry ...

Jeremy wrote:But in all honesty how many people even know what the capital of Myanmar is on this forum or where the country is, what the main religion is, what the human rights issues are like? I'm not criticising you for not knowing those things - different people have different interests.

Myanmar (name used by the current ruling junta, this name isn't recognised by the democratically elected government of 1990), located in South East Asia bordered by Bangladesh, China, Laos, and Thailand, and on the coast by the Bay of Bengal and Andaman Sea. Capital city is Rangoon (Known locally as Yangon), major religion is listed as Buddhist (~89%). The government is a military regime so there's bound to be some rights issues, upon perusing my source a bit more I find:

Burma was administered as a province of India until 1937 when it became a separate, self-governing colony; independence outside of the Commonwealth was attained in 1948. Gen. NE WIN dominated the government from 1962 to 1988, first as military ruler, then as president, and later as political kingmaker. Despite multiparty elections in 1990 that resulted in the main opposition party - the National League for Democracy (NLD) - winning a landslide victory, the ruling junta refused to hand over power. NLD leader and Nobel Peace Prize recipient AUNG SAN SUU KYI, who was under house arrest from 1989 to 1995 and 2000 to 2002, was arrested in May 2003 and is currently under house arrest. Her supporters are routinely harassed or jailed.

So yep human rights issues for sure, economic problems, 2nd largest producer of illicit opium.

Um this was mainly sourced from the CIA World Factbook, so I'll leave you to gauge the accuracy of the data http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... html#Intro

Sorry if that came off as a smart ass, but I was just trying to confirm that I knew that the capital city was indeed Rangoon and now this is what you get when you get bugged by wanting to know something

Anymore obscure countries you want to dredge up Jeremy?

EDIT: just had to add this one from the same source:

Tasmania is one of the world's major suppliers of licit opiate products; government maintains strict controls over areas of opium poppy cultivation and output of poppy straw concentrate

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 10 Dec 2004 08:06

Congradulations Richard, you've proven than you can google "CIA World Factbook" and find Myanmar, your intelligence is: "APE"