Outside Stalls

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 27 Dec 2004 13:02

I'm just curious what you guys think about outside stalls. I see a lot of newbies trying them because it seems like a natural surface to want to stall the bag on what with being the "opposite" of the inside stall. But really does it have much signifigance as far as free style goes and shouyld newbies be weened from it as soon as possible?

On the other hand, I was beaten in the Sick 3 competetion mainly (IMHO) because of the creative use of the outside stall. But is it really anything more than a creative novelty stall?

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 27 Dec 2004 13:12

Anything more than a creative novelty stall?

We play a 'creative novelty' sport. Our main objective is wow factor, and anything that mixes things up accomplishes that. As for newbies, I can't think of a single freestyle concept that they should be weened from.

peanutbuterboy · Post by **peanutbuterboy** » 27 Dec 2004 13:30

I personally dont like the stall. Its hard to include it into any strings. I love the inside stall and the toe stall though, but the outside stall just dosent do it for me.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 27 Dec 2004 13:34

Let's be honest, I bet there is a maximum of half a dozen shredders on this forum that have done a single outside stall in the last month. Whereas I am sure thousands of toes and clippers have been hit.

Practically speaking, it is easier to do more complicated tricks using those two surfaces because they are the easiest to use.

I think there will be an increase in use of unusual surfaces in the future as people get bored with just toes and clippers.

Dragons and insides are nice simple variations on toes and clippers that I think will grow in popularity soon.

shreddaily · Post by **shreddaily** » 27 Dec 2004 13:36

Its all weather you want to stick to main stream vocab or creat you're own style. If you are happy being a freestyle clone, like me and 99% of the shred world, sweet! thats a good place to be. but there is much more ground to be broken in the outside stall/kick component world.

Zerbalicious · Post by **Zerbalicious** » 28 Dec 2004 23:20

Well put Nate,

I think there are many under-used concepts in freestyle. It all comes back to the fact that it's easier to immitate than to innovate.

I would like to see more outsides and flyers among other thing in the game today. It seems to me that you don't see many of these because they are hard. Flyers are especially hard to link out of for many different reasons.

If you want to be original, don't do what everybody else does and try to push the game in a different direction. If you just want to shred that's great too.

Remember the reason shred exists today is because Kenny decided to tap uncharted territory. There is still a vast ammount of uncharted territory in footbag just waiting for the next innovator.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 28 Dec 2004 23:23

In response to Mosher's post, both Chris Pinkus and I were busting outside stalls, or at least trying, in our last session. I actually hit an outside set ss whirling swirl.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 29 Dec 2004 04:52

But is it really anything more than a creative novelty stall?

Dan, it all depends on how you look at it. The way I see it, circling your foot around the bag was probably nothing more than a creative novelty when the game was new. Then it was done in a few other variations, and then those variations were done back to back, and then it wasn't just a novelty anymore, it was on its way to becoming the style we're familiar with today.

First something might be a lone novelty, and then there could be a variety of novelty tricks, and if you keep making more variations out of that one novelty, and then start stringing them all together, its not so much a novelty anymore, nor even a collection of novelties, but instead a style of its own. If you are dedicated, you can mix this style in with other styles. Last night I hit a 13 trick combo with 9 unique dragons mixed with 3 unique flapper stalls, and a cross-body squeeze (all guiltless, of course) and kept going into a small string of clipper tricks. I never quite got around to my toes.

I've found that the cross-body outside stall is very versatile for a number of reasons, two of which being that you can "osis" from outside stall to dragon stall, and because you can "cross-body-rake" from dragon to outside stall. The rake is the easier of the two (the osis is still pretty awkward, but gets less so all the time), and it sets nicely into same butterfly stall and opposite osis. Best of all, perhaps, is that the outside cross-body-rake sets very nicely up to a nice big flyer (butterflier, flying clipper, flying flapper, etc.) Pixie is also pretty easy from an outside stall, and I've hit dim-walk from dragon-rake bsos. I suppose its something I should practice more. I could finish a string of dragons by going straight into a shuffle that starts with that outside-dim-walk.

I could go on and on and on, but I've got to get to work. In short, all this stuff is just a novelty trick (stalling, dexing, jumping up into the air and kicking the bag, etc.) until you develop it into more than just a novelty.

LameR · Post by **LameR** » 29 Dec 2004 05:02

I was wondering what Jon's response to this would be

I think outside stalls rock because of their lack of use. That and it's harder for me to do them than inside/toe/clipper as well as for most people. It's unconventional, so I like it.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 29 Dec 2004 08:56

Well, now that I'm at work, and taking a break, I think I'll go on an on a little bit more.

When I began to freestyle, I bought a copy of Tricks of the Trade, and Kenny went through almost all of the basics, including Toe Stall, Inside Stall, and Outside Stall.

I actually practiced all these, eventually doing 100 toe stalls and 100 inside stalls at the beginning of many of my solo sessions. I don't think I counted out my Outside Stalls quite as obsessively, but I practiced many of them in combo with the insides and toes at most of my solo practices (in those days I was kicking regularly with Daryl Genz, Jane Jones, and Ben Jobs, but didn't usually practice dozens or hundreds of basic stalls when kicking with them. Those sessions were just to shred. You know what I mean.)

In the long run, I'd say that all the effort on basic outside stalls was worth it on many levels. On the one hand, it seems likely that learning good control of the basic outside stall must have been at least of some help in learning to control the cross-body outside stall. One other benefit, I think, came from the similar way I drilled all the basic kicks. Inside, Toes, Knees, and Outsides. Those Outside kicks are still one of the best parts of my warm-up process. In brief, Right Inside Kick > Left Inside Kick > Right Outside Kick > Left Inside Kick > Right Inside Kick > Left Outside Kick > Right Inside > Repeat > Repeat > Repeat, is a very nice way to loosen up stiff hips and a stiff back. Those gently alternating outside kicks make you bend a little to one side and then a little to the other, and pretty soon I'm feeling nice and loose in the spine. Ahhh... I sometimes do similar drills with the basic stalls, especially when I've got a particularly nasty muscle-spasm resulting in a stiff neck or back. When I am otherwise debilitated from back problems (seems to come up about once a year) and can't seem to stop playing footbag all together, I do that drill of basic stalls, as well as alternating some toe stalls and clippers and dragons in there. When you're just not well enough to do anything else, it is kind of satisfying to still demonstrate total control of the bag in simple patterns of various basic stalls. Its one of the few times I really concentrate on having good form. And I've found over time that when it feels like rest should be the best thing for my aching back, a little bit of activity, gentle-like, actually seems to speed up my recovery by letting me loosen up a little, and its all about alternating those insides and outsides that does the most good.

Try: right inside stall > left inside stall > right outside stall > left clipper > right outside stall > left inside stall > right inside stall > left outside stall > right clipper > left outside stall > right inside stall > repeat.
Probably too boring for most of you. Kids these days... No patience at all. Try doing it smoothly. If you bobble and sway at all on a simpe pattern of basics like that, you are not done practicing your basics.

Break time is over. More to follow...

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 29 Dec 2004 09:37

its just like zoid....a outside > ss whirls feels great, but I rarely use it

Genzu · Post by **Genzu** » 29 Dec 2004 10:56

Yeah for Outsides

.

I just had to post something on this thread, because I
totally feel that with 99% of the mainstream neglecting
outsides, we are really limiting freestyle in general.
It is supposed to be 'free'style. And, whilst we're on
the subject, what about that lonely Inside stall??
You'll see a few token insides in some super stylee
runs by a select few players, but considering what is
possible, it's practically unexplored territory.

In a last session last week I hit ducking p.s. mirage to inside, and
it just felt cool. Another example of a cool one that I've been
working is to get inside set fairy paradon ending in dragon.

A lot of talk on this thread has been about x-body outsides,
but lately, I've been trying runs with regular guiltless outsides.
Probably one of my best accomplishments so far was to
hit blurry-whirl-style-outside to outside BSOS. This is a *3* add
version of a 5 add move, and imho, basically just as difficult.
It's like a pixie set from (for example) right outside, then
you bust a pickup-/whirl-style outside with the left foot.

Another fun one is outside set pixie ducking dragon.

On a side note, I was cognizant of this issue when designing
my flyer, and it says specifically:

--------
"Don't limit your freestyle by using only the Set and
Catch surfaces shown. For example, Mirage can start
and end on the Inside Delay."
--------

I have 2000 B&W copies in hand, and 5000 color copies
are being printed right now. I'm just going to start
giving stacks of these away, but if people can send
me self-addressed envelopes, it's a lot easier for me.

I strongly encourage people to send out for a batch of
these flyers! They are HUGE time savers: It takes 2
seconds to hand someone a flyer, whereas you could
easily spend an hour or more trying to explain everything
on the flyer. As much as I enjoy teaching people footbag,
I don’t have that many spare hours – but I do have a few
spare seconds

.

For more info on this Flyer, check out:
http://modified.ca/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=7451

Keep shreddin'

.

Peace.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 29 Dec 2004 12:19

I have to agree here, there are alot of underused concepts and directions that are aching to be taken.

I have started fiddling with trying to replace clippers with insides in tricks to see what happens.

Picture a mobius with the set foot starting from inside as opposed to clipper or a hippy illusion to inside instead of a butterfly. There are so many cool trick variations out there.

I think the reason that these havn't been as explored as much is because it is more difficult to pull off otherwise simple moves and people would rather be hitting these moves than not hitting them with goofy variations.

Also, I bet alot of people are afraid of losing their coveted crossbody add.

The current "free" style system does not allow for the creative daring people to be rewarded for their daring creativity.

If you can't hit the big hard tricks because you are trying to be stylish and interesting using a variety of surfaces you will lose because the dudes that stuck to toes and clippers out shredded you and with their easier stalls they were able to hit their routine with more control.

Who wants to develop a new and unique style you can't compete with? Until the rules are more flexible we are going to continue homoginizing our sport.

blackcrown · Post by **blackcrown** » 29 Dec 2004 12:31

mosher wrote:Who wants to develop a new and unique style you can't compete with? Until the rules are more flexible we are going to continue homoginizing our sport.

I do. I don't give two shits about adds or competing with anybody. When I see vids of Jonathan Schneider I never think about the adds, I just think his style is the coolest.

Eric

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 29 Dec 2004 12:34

The cross-body add is for suckers.

I'm not really serious, but that said, this is pretty much why I work my toe game so much more than my clipper game. Because few others do, and I'd rather explore new territory, like Warped Symp Eggbeater*...orrr...Pixie Delusional Butterfly. All these tricks I've dreamed up, and have pretty much set out to hit one day.

If I spent all my time working towards Blurry Whirl > Spinning Whirl > PS Whirl > Mobius > rpt, yeah, it'd be big, but it's just someone else's bag of tricks.

*-That's all opp out dexes Chris May.

mosher · Post by **mosher** » 29 Dec 2004 12:46

blackcrown wrote:
mosher wrote:Who wants to develop a new and unique style you can't compete with? Until the rules are more flexible we are going to continue homoginizing our sport.
I do. I don't give two shits about adds or competing with anybody. When I see vids of Jonathan Schneider I never think about the adds, I just think his style is the coolest.

Eric

Just for clarity, I wasn't trying to denounce the goodness of trying for new stuff. I was just saying that having the desire to be competive at footbag and having the desire to create your own new style are sadly mututally exclusive.

That said, I don't want to be competitive at footbag! so I intend on delving into the unused once my bag control is good enough to accomodate it.

We have already assigned REALLY strict rules that dictate what is "good" despite the misleading name of our sport.

This is not "free" style by ANY means!
If some super mutant hacky sacker came along doing mind boggling shit we have never seen before (I met a dude like this, I assure you he was doing shit none of us have ever conceptualized yet he'd never heard the word 'footbag' before) people would either make fun of him and say he is doing blough chi (WHICH IS ALSO FREEEEEEE STYLE) or we would welcome him and tell him to start doing the tricks we do because that is "real" "free" style.

But this hacky sacker guy could never compete in our world since his creative ideas don't fit into our rigid scoring structure.

mc · Post by mc » 29 Dec 2004 12:48

beautiful / distinct style is more important to me than ultra high difficulty shred, at least when it comes to what I like to watch.

but what I really like is when a player goes between the two, demonstrating technical proficience, and also a desire to stand out, and to show creativity and fun in their strings.

but when watching intermediate players, I like to see people doing new things, weird sets, uncommon delays, rakes, dragons, flappers, etc. Jon Schneider has told me a hundred times over, he can't shred hard or hit many triple dex moves, but he has one of the most admired, distinct, recognizable styles on the planet, and he is valued by our whole community for it. I say get your technical proficience down on your basics and shred comfortably tiltless / guiltless when you're starting out, but once you've got some control, it's never too early to go exploring.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 29 Dec 2004 13:49

Matt Cross said:

get your technical proficience down on your basics and shred comfortably tiltless / guiltless when you're starting out, but once you've got some control, it's never too early to go exploring.

Oh, yeah... You reminded me of something else I meant to say. Really good toe stalls and clipper stalls (clippers moreso than toes, in my case) as well as good basic kick control has been absolutely essential to me. Those inside and toe stalls are probably the easiest to control, and the easiest for doing those bigger tricks. They are also, like, the basic surfaces I depend on when I'm skooling dragons or flappers or squeezes or whatever. I think it goes back to the original question of this topic. Obviously I would not discourage people from skooling their outside stalls (or any other surfaces) but even I would emphasize that learning good toe skills and clipper skills is of greater importance. Without the bag-control that I've learned by mastering many toe and clipper tricks, I would lack the means to learn to control other, trickier surfaces.

Thanks for all the nice stuff people have said. If you haven't heard me say it before, I'll say it once again: I owe it all to Genzu, who was already awesome when I was a newby and who came to town to kick it with me twice a week anyway, even when there was nobody else in town to kick with but me (he could have just gone to kick with Rippin' more often, but he made time for me anyway), who skooled me on dragons, toes, clippers, and everything else, and who should just stop playing single-bag freestyle altogether to concentrate on skooling two and three bag juggling. Of course, the stuff he's working on the outside stalls is cool too...

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Dec 2004 16:17

->moved to Shred Symposium because that's where topics about playing footbag belongs!

I don't to outside stalls very much - although I did some yesterday. I think they are cool - but often done what I would call unclean - like half a toe stall and half an inside stall - they should be clearly on the outside I think.

I guess at the moment I have lots of other things I want to work on but I'd encourage everybody to work on them at least a little - the more moves you learn the more options you have - even if you don't use them ever - I have thousands of moves I have hit a few times and never try.

acxel22 · Post by **acxel22** » 29 Dec 2004 22:50

I have to disagree with the people saying it's hard to include an outside stall in a string.. I like outside stalls so I use them, and you just have to be creative with them,, lets say i do a far legover.. i can catch it on outside stall, what's the problem..or I done DLO on outside.. It's not SO dificult, people don't do it so they think it's hard... but it's not that hard, just needs practice like every move..

I agree that outside should'nt be schooled before toes and clippers, thats really more usefull!