X > Pendulum, one trick?

RRendsvig · Post by **RRendsvig** » 07 Jan 2005 07:10

Is it possible to do a Stepping Pendulum og would it be a Stepping Toe > Pendulum?

Is Pendulum/Pendulus moves og is it endings - like rakes/xbd rakes?

And why did you vote like you did?

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 07 Jan 2005 08:05

if you mean execute a stepping set, then do an op or same pendulum, then I assume its 2 different moves. I would like to see something like this in a run,

Lovely . . . ?

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 07 Jan 2005 10:06

I voted that they can be one move.

I have heard it on good authority that there is some rule that says that Pendulum is always just a pendulum and cannot be combined with preceding components, but I do not feel that way.

Obviously it can be left up to the viewers' judgements, though, since clearly IT COULD BE two different moves if you wanted it to be, and it might be two different moves even if you intended it to be one (if you executed the combination poorly it might be two, but if you hit the two together smoothly than it could all be one move).

I think its a circumstance similar to cross-body rakes. We do not currently consider a Whirlwind-cross-body-rake to be two separate moves (a Spinning Symposium Whirling Cross-body Toe stall, followed by a cross body rake) because we can see that the move does not immediately end at the very moment that bag contacts the foot. It is my opinion that a move can continue after contacting the foot if the foot then carries the bag (preferably in a smooth, seemless manner).

Its a pet theory of mine that the idea that a pendulum is always seprate from the move elements that preceded it is the reason we do not see more pendulum type moves. At some point playing Guiltless became some kind of requirement, and that immediately excluded pendulums from everybody's trick repetoir. If that idea (that pendulums can't be combined with other elements) had never been, we'd see many more tricks merging smoothly into pendulum. I think that would be good for freestyle as a whole. I say this for a couple of reasons, first among them is that the pendulum is a very spectator-friendly move and more of them could make us all more fun for spectators to watch.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 07 Jan 2005 10:15

If the foot keeps moving in a fluid motion, and the initial contact is made well in front of the body I would count it as one trick. If the contact is made like a toe stall, and the foot is stopped waiting for the toe stall, it sure would appear to be a toe stall followed by a pendulum .

It would be a hard stylish ending and if it's hit without style, prolly shouldn't be hitting it at all.

Tazir · Post by **Tazir** » 07 Jan 2005 10:18

once that one launches the ball, makes a trick and it falls down on the foot the tricks east finishes, and you can start again the ball with a pendulum to make new a tricks.

RRendsvig · Post by **RRendsvig** » 16 Jan 2005 16:31

Yep, but Tazir, that would mean that the entire Pendulum would be non-existing.
My smear would end with a toe stall and my butterfly would begin as the bag has left my foot - thus the pendulum motion is not at trick...

Pendulus (pendulum with XBD release) is quite fun to work in after mirage, it feels Torquish...

And Outsider - I think you are SO right - if that move was a 3 I'm sure it would be done more (at all).

Also legover pendulus is quite fun and doing it far, you can repeat, not changing sides. I've gotten into the rhytm a time or two and have hit a couple in a row - it's quite a nice feeling, especially in bare feet on the beach!

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 16 Jan 2005 17:13

RRendsvig said:

And Outsider - I think you are SO right - if that move was a 3 I'm sure it would be done more (at all).

Thanks, Rasmus. Its just one example of this notion that I've had (I'm sure others noticed this before me, and I probably got the idea from people like Derrick Fogle) that some concepts are rewarded by our system of scoring tricks, and some concepts are not. This breakdown of rewards is sometimes based on the difficulty of the manuevers involved, and sometimes the way tricks are scored and rewarded is based not so much on actual difficulty but simply on what is easy to define. If a concept of tricks is easy to define, we can easily decide how to give it points. A concept that is a little tougher to break down and define sometimes gets left out fo the "point rewarding" system because nobody can invent a satisfactory way to systematically describe how these concepts and manuevers should accumulate points. The result is that tricks that are rewarded by our system of catagorizing moves and their difficulty are emphasized over tricks that nobody has been able to fit into our present system. These left-out tricks are usually under-represented in how we freestyle not because they are less worthy, but because they are less useful to the competitive player. Sometimes they are under-represented not because they are less cool and less challenging, but because they are more challenging. This is kind of a shame. I hope we'll fix it eventually, and I hope that in the meantime it doesn't stop people from using this stuff and expanding on its possible applications.

Just consider that the Pendulum alone easily qualifies as "Cool" and is often refered to as a crowd pleasing trick. Yet almost nobody throws these moves in competition (when we've got the most focused attention from our crowds). Why is that?

I vow to do a Pendulum in a routine the next time I compete. I'd better practice it some.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 16 Jan 2005 17:18

I agree with Jon Schneider. If rake is a move component, then a pendulum is
one as well. And how cool would a Blur Pendulum>Butterfly look.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 17 Jan 2005 06:42

And how cool would a Blur Pendulum>Butterfly look.

And I would hope that would be the point, going after some trick because it looks real cool. I just hope we don't start seeing people try this for the sake of an extra ADD.
Anyway, I think ducking paradox miraging pendulum to spinning butterflier could look cool.

JoshMan01 · Post by **JoshMan01** » 14 Apr 2005 15:26

Maybe since a rake is there to finish a trick then pendulum, the reverse of a rake, could be considered a set.... 1 add set? pendulum butterfly, pendullum mobius sort of thing

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 14 Apr 2005 15:54

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 14 Apr 2005 16:01

i feel like a teenage wannabe anarchist.

fuck adds.. now you guys think up something better

CIC flurry · Post by **CIC flurry** » 14 Apr 2005 16:50

Freestyle:

Everything is a move. Who cares if it's one or two? Unless you care about adds, and you shouldn't. Difficulty and style can be judged separately. if you think a move is too easy, then don't do it, but it still may be cool, in that case do it.

Tom
CIC

Prenz · Post by **Prenz** » 15 Apr 2005 08:57

THE ANSWER:

Pendulum is a set. Just think about where the adds come from in a pendulum.

The first add comes from the swing [DEX]. The second add comes from the toe stall when you catch it to seal the pendulum.

Of course, anything you do in between the pendulum swing and the catch at the end contributes to more adds. So a pendulum spinning mirage is a 4-add trick.

If you need a more solid explanation as to why it can't possibly count towards the end of a move think about this. You can decide to stop your foot before you follow through with the swing. It is just like catching any move in a toe stall, and then setting it. In this case you set it behind your back but you've already caught the damn toe stall and sealed the previous move.

This is the same reason rakes count towards the end and not as a set. You can decide to stop your foot at the END of the rakes motion and there you go you're in the toe stall position. This position will define the beginning of the next move.

I dunno how there can be any discussion over this, its plain and simple stuff.

Prenz · Post by **Prenz** » 15 Apr 2005 09:04

PS-

Sorry Jon but I have to strongly disagree. You can link into any new move with a smooth continuous motion and it doesnt make it one move. For examlple, you can mirage and the catching foot can smoothly rotate forward and into a pixie set--it doesn't make it a miraging pixie or whatever.

Smoothness of transition doesn't matter. As soon as you can take a snapshot of the move and notice that he/she is in the basic toe stall position, one move has ended and one has begun. Again that's why a rake counts towards the end of the last move... the toe-stall "snapshot" happens after the rake.

But it happens before the pendulum. That's why pendulum can so obviously be counted as a set...anything you do between the swing and the final catch adds to the move.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 15 Apr 2005 10:19

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Apr 2005 10:27

All tricks start with a set and end with a set, what goes on in between in the trick.

So w/the pendulum example, I think you can tack on whatever before a pendulum and call it one trick if it's hit smoothly.

I don't think a pendulum is a set, in the sense that you can do a pendulum -> butterfly and count it as one trick. The trick ends when the bag leaves the foot.

JoshMan01 · Post by **JoshMan01** » 15 Apr 2005 11:29

It just makes more sense to me to say a pendulum is a set because the whole point to the trick is getting the bag in the air. If the bag doesn't leave your foot is it a pendulum? No. Also, what happens before has no influence on it so I don't believe it would be an ending. It's all about what happens after, so to say that the pendulum as just the swing is a trick isn't correct.

So....
pdx mirage > pendulum > spinning osis > butterfly No.

pdx mirage > pendulum spinning osis > butterfly Yes.

It seems that most pendulum moves would likely incorporate a spin b/c the bag comes up behind you if you set it straight up.

The trick ends when the bag leaves the foot.

If it requires the bag to leave your foot how could it not be considered a set? No move endings require this.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 15 Apr 2005 11:47

JoshMan01 · Post by **JoshMan01** » 15 Apr 2005 11:55

I would give it one extra add. 5 adds total. No cross body adds though that's for trick endings. but with the cross body you could do something pdx out of it.