Feminism

[SlashC]

I was wondering the other day... What exactly is feminism?

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

- from www.m-w.com

There's also a list of varied definitions on sites like www.dictionary.com

I find it most interesting that the definition of "feminism" is so vague.

I think the two definitions proposed by www.m-w.com are opposite in nature and ergo completely counter-productive. Can feminists really promote equality of sexes when they only promote those of the feminine sex? Furthermore, if I choose the first definition (the definition I like the best), is the name "feminism" itself innappropriate?... a misnomer? I think it should be equalitism or something latin maybe.

Do you fly under the flag of feminism? Do you call yourself a feminist? Are you a man or woman? What does feminism mean to you?

[C-Fan]

I think the two definitions proposed by www.m-w.com are opposite in nature and ergo completely counter-productive. Can feminists really promote equality of sexes when they only promote those of the feminine sex?

Imagine an unequal society which consisted of 2 groups, A and B. The members of group A made more money, made up 95% of the goverment (which makes the laws everybody lives under), and could get away with lots of stuff that Group B couldn`t. Members of Group B can`t vote, they make less money even when doing the same jobs, and didn`t get any of the premium channels on cable, unlike Group A.

Now, if a movement arose whose ultimate goal was `equality for everybody,` they could go about achieving that goal in 2 ways.

1. Political and social activisim on behalf of Group B `s rights and interests (try to make Group B get on equal ground with Group A).

or

2. Legislation/revolution to take away the rights from Group A so they end up having (lacking) the same rights and priveleges as Group B.

In a plentiful, peaceful society, solution #1 is better.

So in conclusion, I don`t think there is any contradiction inherent in the stated definitions. Women want equality with men. Women currently don`t have said equality. So they do what they can to raise their political/social/economic status to become equal with men.

[Moxie]

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests[/quote]

I think the two definitions proposed by www.m-w.com are opposite in nature and ergo completely counter-productive. Can feminists really promote equality of sexes when they only promote those of the feminine sex?

“You don't have to be anti-man to be pro-woman.” ~Jane Galvin Lewis

Definition one and two do not contradict each other. Wanting to boost the Women's Movement does not mean trying to bring men down, it merely seeks to let women come up to the same level as men at work, home, and in society in general. Many women are not willing to think of themselves as feminist because it is associated with "male-bashing" and "lesbians." These are names that (typically) men have used to hurt the credibility of feminists and the strength of the movement. The idea that feminism seeks to take men down a notch is part of the stigma with the word. Do you really think everything has to be about you enough to think that feminism is male-bashing? Okay, that's just a tangent that gets me going. Anyway...

I think it should be equalitism or something

Well since that's the meaning, and most people can use the dictionary, what’s wrong with leaving it like it is? Do you think men and women should be treated fairly and equally? I do. I consider myself a feminist.

"Feminism is the advocacy of political, economic and social equality between women and men." - Feminist Majority Foundation

How good does a female athlete have to be before we just call her an athlete? ~Author Unknown

Because I am a woman, I must make unusual efforts to succeed. If I fail, no one will say, "She doesn't have what it takes." They will say, "Women don't have what it takes." ~Clare Boothe Luce

In general:
I understand not seeing that feminism is really necessary if you’ve never experienced unfair treatment based on the fact you’re a woman. I have, and I’ve had a boss tell me that he doesn’t like to hire women because sometimes they get pregnant.

One of the main focuses of feminism right now is abuse. Did you know that 1 out of 3 women get raped or beaten in their lives? That means if you have a mom and two sisters, chances are, one of them will get rapped or beaten before they die (if they haven’t already.)
__________________
Emily Kulczyk

[wolfpac444]

I feel that the ideals of feminism are in line with my own. I would find it interesting to find someone with whom they are not.

[C-Fan]

I forgot to answer one of your questions in my original post, and this is discussion section so no editing, but yeah: I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label... I don`t wake up every morning and think: `feminism!` I`m a feminist in the same way I care about the environment, in the same way I help people learn footbag, in the same way I drive safely. I believe women and men should be treated equally. I also think recycling is a good idea, and people learn footbag faster when you help them. I also don`t want to die in a traffic accident. I`m a feminist.

[Moxie]

I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label...

It's not usally common to find someone who'll say they're a feminist without a "but..." after it.

________________
Emily Kulczyk

"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."

[slapdash21]

i agree with feminism to a point...as in, voting etc. but, in terms of jobs and stuff, jobs should only be given based on ability. if a woman wants to be a firefighter, but cant lift even 50 pounds, she shouldnt be able to sue for the position. i have the same standards for the handicaps...if you cant do the job, you dont deserve it, obviously. i have no problem with women getting paid the same, as long as they do as much work.
hm, and one more thing. if women truly want equality, then why do they insist on men opening doors for them, giving them their seats (ie on public transportation and such), and stuff like that. honestly, im EXTREMELY chivalrous. if im on the train or bus, and women get on, i stand up, even if they dont take the seat. i dont really agree with this, but i do it anyway because its the right thing to do, apparently. but, in a truly gender-equal society, chivalry wouldnt exist. it seems that femenists want all the perks but none of the negatives...

[sampotter]

I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label...

It's not usally common to find someone who'll say they're a feminist without a "but..." after it.

If you had read on you would realize the very last comment of his post was, "I'm a feminist." His point was in saying that it's a very integrated part of his identity, not a something he's just throwing around as a label. Make your point, but not at the expense of someone else who didn't deserve to have that done to them. (that doesn't mean I don't agree with your point )

I'm a feminist.

[sampotter]

I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label...

It's not usally common to find someone who'll say they're a feminist without a "but..." after it.

If you had read on you would realize the very last comment of his post was, "I'm a feminist." His point was in saying that it's a very integrated part of his identity, not something he's just throwing around as a label. Make your point, but not at the expense of someone else who didn't deserve to have that done to them. (that doesn't mean I don't agree with your point )

I'm a feminist.

[sampotter]

\

I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label...

It's not usally common to find someone who'll say they're a feminist without a "but..." after it.

If you had read on you would realize the very last comment of his post was, "I'm a feminist." His point was in saying that it's a very integrated part of his identity, not something he's just throwing around as a label. Make your point, but not at the expense of someone else who didn't deserve to have that done to them. (that doesn't mean I don't agree with your point )

I'm a feminist.[/quote]\

[slapdash21]

WELL, that point seems well-made...

[Jackbag]

i agree with feminism to a point...
if women truly want equality, then why do they insist on men opening doors for them, giving them their seats (ie on public transportation and such), and stuff like that. ... but, in a truly gender-equal society, chivalry wouldnt exist. it seems that femenists want all the perks but none of the negatives...

1. I think we covered the chivalry in the topic started by Eric Chan... I think everyone should be chivalrous. It's just being nice. If everyone did it, then it could exist and be a part of a gender-equal society.

2. what women do you know "insist" on men opening doors for them? there's a guy that I work with and sometimes he doesn't let me carry heavy things, AND then tries to open the door for me. It hurts my feelings when he does that because it makes me feel inferior to him (ps - i've asked him not to treat me like that at work)

now talk more about equality

Amelia

[slapdash21]

1. I think we covered the chivalry in the topic started by Eric Chan... I think everyone should be chivalrous. It's just being nice. If everyone did it, then it could exist and be a part of a gender-equal society.

ok...but do you see this happening anytime soon? if this idea of women opening doors for men, men opening doors for women, were all equal in that, then there would be an outrage. lots of males i know (including myself) would say that chivalry is all based on the male being particularly 'nice' to the female, and anything else is rude and unheard of

2. what women do you know "insist" on men opening doors for them? there's a guy that I work with and sometimes he doesn't let me carry heavy things, AND then tries to open the door for me. It hurts my feelings when he does that because it makes me feel inferior to him (ps - i've asked him not to treat me like that at work)

honestly, i have witnessed, on trains, a female getting on a train, seeing no seats, and bitching out the nearest seated male. i have also seen women get on trains, seeing no seats, and a completely unrelated and unknown (standing) male jumps in to bitch out a seated male to give up his seat for the lady. its whats done. i mean, where is the distinct point where you are chivalrous to the cripples and the elderly, in giving up your seat, and being chivalrous to women. im not calling women cripples or old, but i think its along the same lines.

[Moxie]

I do consider myself a feminist.

But it`s not some kind of defining label...

It's not usually common to find someone who'll say they're a feminist without a "but..." after it.

If you had read on you would realize the very last comment of his post was, "I'm a feminist."

I saw that. I am not attacking anyone for not being a feminist, nor will I. The point I was making is that even when you do get people who are willing or happy to say that they're feminists, it is usually followed by a "but." I understood his point, but did it really need to be said that it wasn't a large part of his every day life and that it wasn't the first thing he thought of every day when he woke up?

I'm for equal treatment of black people in society and the workplace. And gay people too, but it's not like I think about it first thing when I wake up- "Gay Rights!!!" ... because if I hadn't said that, that's what you'd think?

It just sounds like I'm picking on Ken, which isn't my goal. His was just a classic response. I am in a class where we're learning to identify stuff kind like this. I hadn't ever been aware that this was something that most people do after they say they're feminist in conversation. So I chose to point it out to others when I saw it.

Make your point, but not at the expense of someone else who didn't deserve to have that done to them.

Ken, I am sorry if it seemed like I attacked you personally, it was not the intention.
____________________
Emily Kulczyk

"Those who restrain their desires, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained."

[junkyardjew]

I think a lot of what Peter is talking about/seeing isn't "chivalry", but a sort of muted sexism, where women are considered the 'weaker' sex. I think he'd find very few women who considered themselves feminists (or even those who 'just want equal rights' - since feminism is such a bad word these days) expecting to have a door held open for them.

I had an intro politics class a couple of years ago, in which i found myself to be basically the only person in the room (along with my TA) defending the feminist view-point. It was a strange position to be in, but I disovered that it was mostly because of anti-feminist propaganda propigated through organized religion. There's a very strong current of the 'keep women in their place' viewpoint that filters out of the teachings of the church(es), and is reinforced in popular culture to a disturbingly large extent.

Now, I am definitely a feminist, in fact, a lot of my viewpoints are compatible with radical third-wave ecofeminism, and if you stop to think about it, the entrenched sexism (not to mention rascism, classism, ableism and all the other isms you care to think of) is enormous. We're making great strides, but we still have a hell of a long way to go before we can even start talking about whether or not we have a rudimentary 'equality of the sexes'.

Did you hear that wal-mart is being sued for systematically paying female managers almost ten percent less than male managers? What proportion of CEOs in industry are female? What about the disparity between professors of the two sexes? Some of my friends in mech eng mentioned to me that our dynamics professor is the first woman we've had teach us in two years! That's 26 classes! Twenty six different professors, and only one woman among them. That doesn't make any sense to me.

I could talk a lot more about this, but I'll spare you the essay. I will recommend though, that you do some reading on your own. The history of feminism - from Mary Shelley through the fight for women's sufferage, to second and third wave feminism is an interesting alternative history of our times. If you would consider reading the history of america through the eyes of blacks (since it's still black history month), consider reading about it through the eyes of another opressed population (and I don't say that lightly or in jest).

[Tsiangkun]

I often think some are trying to make the real world bend to fit their idealized fantasies of the workplace.

[slapdash21]

ok, exactly what do feminists want? if they dont care about men being especially polite in whatever form, then all they want is equal pay? i COMPLETELY support equal pay for equal performance. if you can do the job as well as someone else, no matter of gender, race, or anything else, you should get paid the same. so yes, in that sense, i agree completely. other than that...im not sure what feminists are looking for. if they want equal opportunities, like in terms of jobs, they need to be able to do the job as well as a man.
also an interesting idea is inherent advantages. men are given jobs such as firefighter and construction workers much easier, because for the most part men have the natural advantage of strength. BUT, women have natural advantages, i believe. its actually somewhat in question (if not blatantly incorrect) but i think women are more intelligent and/or mature, at most stages of life. i dunno.
so what are feminists really bitching about? it seems on the important things i actually agree to a point, so why do they sound so bitchy to me?

[Tsiangkun]

*oh look, my conservative hat, I haven't worn this in a while *
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I think the feminist movement has blurred the lines between sex and gender, but they don't seem to realise that they have removed a large fabric of traditional society. The feminist have destroyed the male role in a culture. There has been no new role developed for the man, leaving many to struggle with trying to figure out what it even means to be a good man in todays world. Hint, men don't spend their childhood days dreaming about the day they shelve everything they ever hoped they could be in order to be a good provider. With no respect from the family as the provider, is it any wonder marriage is falling apart faster than a house of cards in a hurricane ?

"I got my own money"

The women have made the male role and the female role both theirs, taking with it the one place a man was supposed to get respect; his home. Rarely do women want the full traditional male role, only the paycheck. Being responsible for the welfare of the partner is not on the feminist goals, nor is supporting X-Partners and children after relationships breakdown. There is no feminist in the entire midwest arguing that she should be the one to get up at 4:00AM to shovel the snow off the driveway. . . that role isn't nearly as interesting to the feminist cause as the paycheck.

"I don't need no man"

And neither do men, so where does that leave us as a society ?

American violence is high. Local violence is high. Divorce rates are high. Education is down.

Is any of this related to the rise of the female, and the overtaking of the male gender role ? Probably not.

Could these be related to the declining role of the male in todays society ?
Interesting to think about.

Feminism is a great thing for womens rights. However, society is composed of more than just women, and as such, feminist goals may not be the same goals that would be best for the family, the culture, or the nation. Feminism serves one ideal, the advancements of the rights of women, which must not be confused with advancing the cause of equality for all humans.

[slapdash21]

*oh look, my conservative hat, I haven't worn this in a while *
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I think the feminist movement has blurred the lines between sex and gender, but they don't seem to realise that they have removed a large fabric of traditional society. The feminist have destroyed the male role in a culture. There has been no new role developed for the man, leaving many to struggle with trying to figure out what it even means to be a good man in todays world. Hint, men don't spend their childhood days dreaming about the day they shelve everything they ever hoped they could be in order to be a good provider. With no respect from the family as the provider, is it any wonder marriage is falling apart faster than a house of cards in a hurricane ?

"I got my own money"

The women have made the male role and the female role both theirs, taking with it the one place a man was supposed to get respect; his home. Rarely do women want the full traditional male role, only the paycheck. Being responsible for the welfare of the partner is not on the feminist goals, nor is supporting X-Partners and children after relationships breakdown. There is no feminist in the entire midwest arguing that she should be the one to get up at 4:00AM to shovel the snow off the driveway. . . that role isn't nearly as interesting to the feminist cause as the paycheck.

"I don't need no man"

And neither do men, so where does that leave us as a society ?

American violence is high. Local violence is high. Divorce rates are high. Education is down.

Is any of this related to the rise of the female, and the overtaking of the male gender role ? Probably not.

Could these be related to the declining role of the male in todays society ?
Interesting to think about.

Feminism is a great thing for womens rights. However, society is composed of more than just women, and as such, feminist goals may not be the same goals that would be best for the family, the culture, or the nation. Feminism serves one ideal, the advancements of the rights of women, which must not be confused with advancing the cause of equality for all humans.

HOLYSHIT!!!! i AGREE with you for the first time every completely!! highfive man!

[wolfpac444]

I think the feminist movement has blurred the lines between sex and gender, but they don't seem to realise that they have removed a large fabric of traditional society. The feminist have destroyed the male role in a culture.
.
.
.
Feminism serves one ideal, the advancements of the rights of women, which must not be confused with advancing the cause of equality for all humans.

Wow... where to start? I think you have this odd notion of feminists as "those females". For example, throughout your entire post, you refer to any feminist as "she". With quotes such as "Being responsible for the welfare of the partner is not on the feminist goals, nor is supporting X-Partners and children after relationships breakdown", it seems like you are just making stuff up. I don't think I've ever met a "feminist" who would argue or believe that women shouldn't have to pay for childcare support if the male is the one who is going to be raising the children.

I don't understand why you feel that there are necessary roles that people have to fill. Why does there have to be a "provider"? Is being the provider the sole source a man's respect in a traditional relationship? I know if I were raising a family, being respected for providing for my family would be fairly low on my list of concerns. Continuing along this line of thought, I would not want any of your roles forced down upon my relationship. If I want to shovel the driveway, then I will; if my partner wants to, then I will let her. I think that issues such as these can easily be resolved at an individual level rather than resorting to the ridiculous notion of "gender roles".

Those things that you mentioned are about as interesting to be considered in relation to "gender roles" as they are in relation to "race roles" -- not very.

Your notion of feminist ideals are very scewed.

[P.S. I have no idea what you meant by this: "Hint, men don't spend their childhood days dreaming about the day they shelve everything they ever hoped they could be in order to be a good provider." Could you clarify?]