Inevitability of non-existence

El_mexicano · Post by **El_mexicano** » 04 Mar 2005 13:08

idk, but i have trouble believing there is an after life, its almost uncomprehensible, yet i am deathly afraid of not existing anymore, idk what i would do.. oh wait i wouldnt exist. it freaks me out. but see how do things like stigmata and exorcisms??? or what about jesus and mohammad? were they just total crack heads or totally sincere? ~sigh~ and what about paranormal sightings? there are so many questionable things on both sides! grrr i just dont know...

LittleBoy footbag · Post by **LittleBoy footbag** » 04 Mar 2005 13:19

oh hey a new modified member! Yeah....well when I was little, I hit a telephone pole as a kid riding a bike.......i was knocked out for baout three or so minutes......during that time, I just saw white but my mind was still active.....howeve rit did seem to be in some sort of autopilot....lik einc ertain dream when you can't control what's gonna happen.......then again, it could just be again, *pop* life's over.

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 04 Mar 2005 15:05

slapdash21 wrote: oh god, that is the worst argument for living a good life i have ever heard. for some people 'making the most of life' would mean getting rich by whatever means necessary, doing huge amounts of drugs, having sex with anything that moves, and doing whatever the fuck you feel like to anyone. as in, it wouldnt be 'living a good life' it would be having a FUN life, which isnt the same as good.
besides...that sounds like corny-song lyrics.

I never said people couldn't do whatever they wanted. You're taking my sentence out of context and being an ass about it. People will do whatever they want regardless. Being good means being able to function within the bounds of society. If you can't do that, society will punish you. Bringing harm to yourself with drugs is fine if that's what you want to do. I don't care. You can have as much FUN as you want as long as it doens't interfere with anyone else's FUN. I don't believe in the afterlife and think religion is unnecessary. Though I suppose it has it's purpose since it stops someone like you from freaking out and killing people or partying and doing drugs 24/7 just because your ego can't handle that you have no purpose and won't live forever.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 04 Mar 2005 15:38

just for fun, lets assume you are right. so what exactly is it that motivates you in life, if YOU (equal to everyone else) have no purpose and no future after death. what is it that causes you to not freak out and party 24/7? or do you? i dunno. perhaps you just numb yourself with alcohol to try to not think about it. obviously i dont know you, so i dont know how you act or what your motivation is for living, since you assume there is nothingness after death. go ahead...party 24 hours a day, OR work your ass off to be a good citizen, abiding by the laws of the land. either way you're fucked. in your belief, you lose EVERYTHING you have and have done during your life, so its completely futile. in my opinion, you lose the physical stuff that you aquire. if im wrong, i lose nothing. if you are wrong, you are fucked.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 04 Mar 2005 16:32

Peter wrote:if im wrong, i lose nothing. if you are wrong, you are fucked.

What!

If he's wrong about what? About there being nothing after you're dead?

Our ultimate destination isn't the only thing that charts our course through life. It's about doing things that bring meaning to your life. Certainly you could party 24/7, get drunk off your ass and addicted to cocaine, but where does that get you?

I go to school. I write music. I watch my diet and work out. I play footbag. I dance. I have a job and pay my bills. I develop friendships and relationships and I love my family. All these things bring meaning to my life, and a reason to get up tomorrow. If I spent my time doing things that didn't warrant any growth, whether it be physical, spiritual, emotional, whatever, what purpose would I have in life? I just try to work to be more than I was yesterday. That's my purpose, and that's as simple as it gets.

But clearly it's all for naught, as you've succinctly pointed out. I'm going to lose it all. I'm going to die, and none of this is going to matter.

What difference should that make! I should ignore any possibility for meaning in my life because it's going to end eventually? Should I avoid the experience of graduating from University, writing my first symphony, hitting 160 pounds by working out, landing Delusional Drifter, dancing for 9 hours to sets from my favorite DJs, establishing a career, falling in love, raising great kids (You could do it too Peter.), seeing them get married, and eventually retiring myself?

Do you really believe that on my deathbed, I'm going to lay there and think, "Looking back, I really wish that I hadn't done any of those things. I'm going to die, and all the things I've experienced in my life just don't matter anymore. None of it matters anymore"? Do you believe I will regret it?

Why would I?

I lived a good life because it was the only one I had. I made the most of it.

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 04 Mar 2005 19:38

That's a very good point, and one of the reasons I do believe in an after life, because even if there was no after life I think I'd still live my life in the exact same way. This discussion just made me think of this quote from Donnie Darko...

I can only hope that the answers will come to me in my sleep. I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.

james · Post by **james** » 05 Mar 2005 18:10

Ok, I think I've got some things to clarify here. First, to Emily:

You wrote: 'You're assuming that nothing=nothingness=your "soul" is just chillin' in space for all eternity, right? It's just as realistic to think that your "soul" will be chillin' in heaven or someplace. I don't get why you make the assumption that after you die you still exist at all if "existence necessarily implies non-existence." Your soul being in some sort of limbo isn't non-existence.'

I'm saying that nothing=nothingness=nothingness, period. I don't know where you got the idea of some kind of sustained existence from that. I'm saying the same thing you are and that is when your cat dies, it's gone for good. Same as us.

And ditto on this statement: 'Do you think that's why some people have religion to begin with? Because they don't want to imagine not existing in some form?'
That's exactly why religion exists. To shelter the human mind from the inevitability of non-existance.

Slapdash21 said: 'a lack of afterlife would be a numbing idea, if i believed it. if there is no afterlife, no eternal justice, and no point to life, i would probably just freak out, kill people, or party and do drugs 24/7.'

Hmmm, I'm not too sure about that statement. Seems a little screwy to me. Kevin and Brad were holding it down in my absence though. I completely agree with both of you.
There is such a thing as justice, and it does not require an outside force to maintain. I'LL maintain justice myself, because I know what is logical and thus 'right' or 'good'. Why don't people run around and kill other people randomly? I'll tell you why, it's really quite simple: it is neither in ones best interest nor logical to kill people without reason. Natural laws of order stop us from doing irrational things. It's very scary indeed to think that were it not for your belief in the big head in the sky you would lose rationality and even scarier that there are other people like that in the world. Then again none of you will ever STOP believing in the bearded one so we're all safe right? It really annoys me that you think because I don't believe in god that I can't fathom what it is to be a good person. Being a good person is independant of any crackpot belief system. I really could go on and on about this and related issues, but I'm too lazy and as always it's a horrendous waste of time.

and here's oh snap from brad : 'Though I suppose it has it's purpose since it stops someone like you from freaking out and killing people or partying and doing drugs 24/7 just because your ego can't handle that you have no purpose and won't live forever.'

Once again I must berate slapdash21 who said: 'either way you're fucked. in your belief, you lose EVERYTHING you have and have done during your life, so its completely futile. in my opinion, you lose the physical stuff that you aquire. if im wrong, i lose nothing. if you are wrong, you are fucked.'

Kevin I once again completely agree with you, well put. It's quite ironic what you said slapdash, because it is the complete opposite which is true, that is YOU lose everything for not accepting reality and I gain everything because I know reality and appreciate it infinitely more than you because I know it is finite.
You're a 'good' person because god will punish you otherwise. You're a 'good' person because you have an afterlife waiting for you (or so you think muahahaha).
I'm a 'good' person because I understand the logic, beauty and necessity of being 'good'.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 05 Mar 2005 19:03

james wrote: Emily:

You wrote: 'You're assuming that nothing=nothingness=your "soul" is just chillin' in space for all eternity, right? ....

I'm saying that nothing=nothingness=nothingness, period. I don't know where you got the idea of some kind of sustained existence from that. I'm saying the same thing you are and that is when your cat dies, it's gone for good. Same as us.

My bad, I think I got that idea because you said:

james wrote:The question is do you accept the fact that you have an eternity of nothingness waiting for you?

I took that to mean that after death you still exist in some manner. I think after I read that sentence I didn’t read the rest of your post closely enough to understand what you meant. If I ignore that sentence, yes, I have the same views as you do on this issue.
__________________
Emily Kulczyk

"For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come." --William Shakespeare Hamlet

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 05 Mar 2005 21:27

Kevin I once again completely agree with you, well put. It's quite ironic what you said slapdash, because it is the complete opposite which is true, that is YOU lose everything for not accepting reality and I gain everything because I know reality and appreciate it infinitely more than you because I know it is finite.

It was funny reading you write about pascal's wager, or whatever it's called, and how you didn't lose anything, because while reading your post I decided that, since I do believe in an afterlife, I believe people with your beliefs are going to "heaven". I don't believe you should try and do good deeds just so that you can have a good afterlife, that's not the point, ther is nothing that you can do to justify yourself eternal happiness. The point is that you are a person of faith so you'll have a good afterlife, it's just that since your a person of faith it's likely that you also do good deads. Having said this it seems to me that in my belief system you would be going to "heaven" just as much as I would be, because even though you don't believe in an afterlife, you still believe in good. It just struck me as odd that even though you don't believe in an afterlife, I believe that you will go to "heaven" or whatever you want to call it as an afterlife.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 06 Mar 2005 09:14

but outside of religion (actually, inside too) people's definition of a 'good' person is completely different! i mean, you must be really retarded (this isnt aimed at anyone in specific...this could be any idiot) if you think that everyone has the same standards of right and wrong. its just not true...if it was, would we really need prisons? there are people who have no problem with stealing, rape, and murder. im glad you have such high morals, but most people dont. because....people are NOT inherently good.
now, i will try to say it again, and explain myself, so hopefully someone will be able to follow me this time, and not take what i say and twist it around into bullshit.

1.you dont believe in ultimate justice
2.i do
3.if you are correct
a.you will be fine
b.i will be fine (ie, we will both just be 'dead' (complete and utter nothingness)
4.if i am correct
a.i will be fine (having lived a life believing in something greater than myself)
b.you will be under the judgment that i believe in.

what other options are there?

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 06 Mar 2005 13:15

I can't really reply to the first part because I believe people are inherently good... As for the second part let me try and explain my thinking of it. I know you weren't talking directly to me or anything, I just want to try and explain my views of what you just said.

1. I do believe in ultimate justice just like you do.
2. Same as above
3. If there is no ultimate justice
a. I well be fine, along with any one else who feels satisfied with there life, because I lived my life how I wanted it to be lived not because I was trying to make it into heaven.
b. The people who believe in God only because it's a good gamble, won't be fine because the only life they will ever have will have been a lie.
4. You and me are correct, there is an afterlife
a. You and I will be judged and only God can decide
b. Everyone else will be judged by the same God and again only he can decide there fate.

I can't speak for God, so I don't know who will pass his judging standards or whatever. If I were him I would feel much more kindly disposed to someone who lived a good life because they thought that was the right thing to do, then to someone who lived a good life because they thought it was a good gamble. Again, I'm not sure if you are saying that people should obey God just because it's a "good gamble" that's just what it seemed from your post.

james · Post by **james** » 06 Mar 2005 13:51

Yes, and that option is, I am right and you are wrong, hahahaha. Really though this is a waste of time, I don't know what I was thinking starting this topic, prolly had one too many beers and was feeling fiesty.
For the record, you can't twist into bullshit what's already bullshit.

Right and wrong are not relative. They obey basic laws of logic and reason. Who says I don't believe in ultimate justice? I don't need a god to carry out justice, because we all know how horribly inefficient god is at THAT. I can carry it out myself, in fact it is my duty to make sure that justice is served, like for instance if someone murdered my lover (if I had one). What would I do? I'd hunt that fucker down and torture and kill him/her.
The golden rule is so very simple and it works for everything. If you steal from somebody, you are saying that stealing is ok and that your possessions should in turn be stolen. If you kill someone for anything but survival you should be killed. There's an awful lot of 'shoulds' here, that's because you're right in that not everyone is clever enough to realize natural laws of reality. And yes that's why we need prisons, but we wouldn't need prisons if your god was doing its job would we? But then again there are bullshit reasons for that too. Fuck god, we're on our own, we are the gods, we have to enact justice ourselves. You're right, we're not inherently good, we have to earn it, grasp it and live it.

Hahaha 4b is amusing. I have everything to gain regardless of god or not because I know I'm a 'good' person (thanks for seein' that crazydwarf heh).
Good is a universal standard unaffected by our perception. It doesn't matter what someone 'thinks' good is, because good is independant of that.

p.s. there is nothing greater than yourself. You shouldn't need 'something greater' to give your life meaning. Each and every one of us is meaning unto ourself.

james · Post by **james** » 06 Mar 2005 13:57

The upper post was in response to Mr. Bowler, you snuck one in before I finished Mr. Rhodes.

I have an option to add to the list:

5. If I am right, people who believe in god are living a lie and are missing out on much more than I would be if I was burning in hell.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 06 Mar 2005 18:26

well, you're right about one thing...this is a waste of time, because you are a fucking idiot.
but. before i drop the subject, please at least tell me that you dont think you wont be 'missing out on stuff in hell' please tell me that you dont honestly think burning in hell will be better than ANY role you can play on this earth...
idiot.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 06 Mar 2005 18:39

ok when you die, you are transported to a big bubble wrap factory and everyone welcomes you there as king and your fingers never get tired, there's even areas where you can jump off of high ledges and land in large piles of different sized bubble wrap, there's darts, lawn bowling and square dance lessons, all available for you to pop bubble wrap with. everything is ok in this place, i call it heaven, you can call it what you will. I even wrote a book about it to back up my claims, if anyone wants to read it.. infact you have to read it to go there, otherwise how are you going to believe in it??

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 06 Mar 2005 18:47

haha, thanks seath. i AGREE!

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 06 Mar 2005 19:05

I just want to point out that if you don't believe in a god that has an active part in your everyday life and decides how you spend eternity, doesnt automatically mean that you believe that you are the most important person in the world.

I don't believe in the Christian god. Nor do I care to worry about what happens after death, but that doesn't mean i go through life living selfeshly, Jesus said it best, respect others, love your enemies, this is a mind blowingly amazing attitude towards life, if others lived this way there'd be alot less hate.

I think it's a safe rule to just try to better the community you live in, be a positive force above all else, gain knowledge so that you are fully equipped to do this, and not focus solely on one sort of belief system developed around issues we will never have any way of understanding, because that just divides people, and isn't that going against the whole point of what you wanted in the first place?

james · Post by **james** » 07 Mar 2005 08:36

Man, you got me there Petey boy, the answer to all this is so clear why didn't I think of it sooner? I'm an idiot!
You're right about everything, you're a genius man, keep up the good work.

james · Post by **james** » 07 Mar 2005 08:38

And oh yeah, if I ever shred with you, I'm doing everything you do with an extra dex.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 07 Mar 2005 09:30

james wrote:And oh yeah, if I ever shred with you, I'm doing everything you do with an extra dex.

yeah, and I'm sure you have a really fast bike too