Inevitability of non-existence

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 07 Mar 2005 10:38

Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 07 Mar 2005 15:45

Peter Bowler wrote:haha, thanks seath. i AGREE!

Are you being genuine? Do you not realize what he's saying?

Peter Bowler wrote:...if it was, would we really need prisons? there are people who have no problem with stealing, rape, and murder. im glad you have such high morals, but most people dont.

Peter Bowler wrote: b.you will be under the judgment that i believe in.

what other options are there?

Clearly, in your mind, the way you live your life is the only option. Regardless of how I live my life, since "most" people don't have a sense of morality I'm doomed to hell? This argument comes up all the time, but how about those people in the world that live a good life, but also know nothing of God? They lived a good life, as did I, will they receive a similar judgement to me or not? Please Peter, tell me how God would judge my existence.

Further: We're having a debate here, each telling our view. Though I disagreed with your points, and found a lot of your ideas to be illogical and otiose, I still respected you as a person with his own set of beliefs.

When you insult the other side and promptly flee the scene of discussion, have you accomplished anything? In your mind, have you won?

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 07 Mar 2005 15:56

haha, ok kevin, im back. actually i was kidding when i agreed with seath, but mostly just laughing at myself for getting so pissed about this debate.

ok. lets get down to it. well, i dont think how i live my life is the only option. i think its the right option. of course you know i think that the key to acceptance into heaven doesnt actually depend on "living a good life." the works you do arent the important part, its the belief. and i KNOW you are asking what about people that live in the heart of africa or whatever who never hear the name of God a single time in their life. WELL, i believe that there is no person that has never heard the gospel about God before, in one form or another, or if they havent (or even if they have), i believe God will speak directly to them. most people call it a 'conscience" some people believe its the holy spirit (ie God) telling us what is right and what is wrong, and just that he is there.

all of the good works in the world wont get you into heaven, in my humble opinion. i dont want to seem pretentious or anything, but i assume you already know i think that anyway.

in response to me calling james a fucking idiot...i admit it wasnt mature, but at least i made a point in that post as well...one thing i hope you can agree with is that if heaven DOES exist, it WONT be a party.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 07 Mar 2005 19:22

Peter Bowler wrote:the works you do arent the important part, its the belief.

Peter Bowler wrote:i believe God will speak directly to them. most people call it a 'conscience" some people believe its the holy spirit (ie God) telling us what is right and what is wrong, and just that he is there.

Alright, I'm not sure I've heard that angle before. That's interesting, but your ideas contradict eachother.

What you're saying is that African tribespeople who have never heard the name of God are still allowed into the kingdom of heaven based upon their acceptance of the principles that God himself has spoken to them. Alright, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what's right and what's wrong, so what need do I have for religion to tell me further? Hasn't God himself already told me all I need to know?

For that matter, what need does *anyone* have for religion and beliefs if God is there to whisper some shred of morality in our ears? Why would he only whisper in the ears of those that wouldn't otherwise learn of him? And why not whisper (or yell) in the ears of the misguided WITHIN the church?

But as you said above, the works carry less importance than the beliefs; morality doesn't matter, all that is important is that you believe in God......but African Tribespeople have no physical beliefs in your God. They only have a conscience, and as you've said, that's not enough.....unless of course they have no medium by which to be taught about the Lord, which obviously they don't because they lack faith.

Thus, to summarize your views: Morality only plays a role in a person's acceptance into heaven if they have not otherwise heard of the Lord.

This is just circular reasoning!

Hypothetically, let's say I've got a conscience equal to that of an African Tribesman. Both of us are devoid of any belief in the Lord above. Both of us do good in our lives.

He gets into Heaven and I don't, right?

Above all of this, it seems kind of convenient to just "assume" that everyone's heard of him in one way or another.

Peter Bowler wrote:but outside of religion (actually, inside too) people's definition of a 'good' person is completely different! i mean, you must be really retarded (this isnt aimed at anyone in specific...this could be any idiot) if you think that everyone has the same standards of right and wrong. its just not true...if it was, would we really need prisons? there are people who have no problem with stealing, rape, and murder. im glad you have such high morals, but most people dont.

Well why would they? The works don't matter.

Why waste your time trying to be good when all you have to do is fall asleep in church?

Note: If you haven't caught on yet, I'm deeply saddened by the first quote above.

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 07 Mar 2005 19:44

This time I have to agree with Peter, or at least, I think I can explain what he's trying to say... What he means by good works not mattering is that nothing we can do can get us into heaven so we shouldn't see it as like an exchange, like I'll do good works, so I can go to heaven. No one can be sinnless and so no one "deserves" heaven. We should love God, and so do good works because of that love, kind of like how you love your parents and so don't try to dissapoint them. That is why I think athiests, people of other religions, agnostics ect. can go to heaven though, because even though they might not believe in a God they are still loving him by being a good person...

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 07 Mar 2005 21:11

qphox wrote: Certainly you could party 24/7, get drunk off your ass and addicted to cocaine, but where does that get you?
.

http://www.rockhall.com/

brian relly · Post by **brian relly** » 07 Mar 2005 21:27

HooD · Post by **HooD** » 07 Mar 2005 21:57

Oh no no no Stephen, there is always more capacity for slapdash's rants. Give me mooore of this reasoning with holes all within it. If you have time, read it all again, and get even more aggravated. The good thing about firm beliefs with a 100 % affirmation, is that it is a belief. Wait, wait, the best part would have to be the bloodshed that comes from those religions shaking their fists because of this strict unwavering uniformity through mindsets and followings...[/sarcasm] Go at it boys, rip away !

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 07 Mar 2005 23:40

C-Fan wrote:
qphox wrote: Certainly you could party 24/7, get drunk off your ass and addicted to cocaine, but where does that get you?
http://www.rockhall.com/

My mistake, though the music certainly gave them a purpose in life. As a musician, I know how it feels. It's not my place to judge others' habits, it's just not my style. A bit cliché: To each their own. That's what I'm saying in all of this. If it brings your life meaning, do it. If it brings purpose to Peter's life to take an active role in his religion, by all means, go for it. If it follows the Golden Rule, well that's just an added bonus.

That one line just got to me. Believe in God and you're good to go, as if nothing else plays a factor.

But maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding him.

And god dammit Stephen, if you post one more graphic from ebaums, there's a good chance that I'll perform a self-lobotomy. Take some time to think up something original. :/

RANTRANTRANT

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 08 Mar 2005 11:05

So in a nutshell,

Man tells God " I believe in You !"

God lets man into heaven no matter how morally bankrupt an existence the man led as long as he believes in God and repents for his sins.

Another Man leads a perfect life in Gods eyes, never says "God, I believe in You !", God puts the evil man in hell for all eternity.

Hmm,
This whole Man controlls who gets into heaven thing, just doesn't seem to leave God with enough power to do the judgement on judgement day. People that would otherwise get into the clubhouse, don't. God has been forced into the position of a gate watcher, as non believers must go to hell, and God himself can't save the non believers who led good lives. Meanwhile, people that should never get in by their deeds, God has to watch as they stroll past the gates into His kingdom because they believed and repented. I find it really hard to believe in a God that would handcuff himself with such a stupid set of limitations on how He runs His cosmos.

But if this is correct, we have a nonending consciousness and if not, we got out like a candle and that's it. Doesn't seem to matter much either way, cuz in the end God will do what He does and I find it improbable that Man will force Gods hand through a set of beliefs.

james · Post by **james** » 08 Mar 2005 12:42

Ok Peter, I admit the footbag comment was childish, I apologize; just a little rowdy for being an idiot I guess hahaha. It'd be funny if you trained hard and came and spanked me in a circle.

Now that that's out of the way, everything else you've said is logically fallible, but that is the nature of belief and belief systems.
Nothing has changed here except those of us who use rationality may have refined our arguments even further...not that it matters as we can all see.
The world is going to hell in a handbag.

Oh yeah Mr. Randall I do have a really fast bike, wanna race me?

And Ryan, love isn't enough.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 08 Mar 2005 13:00

james

you just jumped up like 50 points in my book. you are totally correct about rational arguments being quite refined, but belief isnt based on that anyway. thats half why i avoided this debate for a day or so, but my own immaturity tragically dragged me back in. i would have to train REALLY hard to spank you in footbag, james, thats one thing i really respect about you, you clearly are quite good at kicking. i think i was at least childish and rowdy as you, but it was still fun debating.
now...back to the debate...

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 08 Mar 2005 13:01

yea, there's peace and happiness too, peace love and happiness man, it's like totally far out man. Whoaa.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 08 Mar 2005 13:31

hey, dustin alright. for awhile i was starting to think you were catholic, and you thought works were important. glad to see we at least agree on that.

Qphox wrote:What you're saying is that African tribespeople who have never heard the name of God are still allowed into the kingdom of heaven based upon their acceptance of the principles that God himself has spoken to them. Alright, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what's right and what's wrong, so what need do I have for religion to tell me further? Hasn't God himself already told me all I need to know?

well, if you believe in God, and the sacrifice he made, you dont need 'religion' thats a word that is tossed around like its some magic word, and honestly im sick of it. i think people only use it when they are trying to explain God to other people, and religion is the word everyone expects to hear. as far as im concerned, religion is (or should be) defined as a relationship with God, involving back and forth communication, and living a life that pleases God (a "good" life ((if you want me to detail what i think that is, ask me, i will)))

Qphox wrote:For that matter, what need does *anyone* have for religion and beliefs if God is there to whisper some shred of morality in our ears? Why would he only whisper in the ears of those that wouldn't otherwise learn of him? And why not whisper (or yell) in the ears of the misguided WITHIN the church?

i believe without God, humans, given a choice, will pretty much always do the wrong thing. like, for example, if you want to sleep with you neighbors wife, aside from God, you would absolutely do it. thats the conscience that eveyone talks about, but i believe its the Holy Spirit helping us to tell the difference between right and wrong, and avoiding the temptation to do wrong. so, what i am saying is, God DOES speak to all people. obviously some choose to listen in some cases, and some people choose to not listen, all in different cases. honestly, i would rather debate with an outright atheist than a miguided church-goer, because they are so sure of their faith (as i am), and willing to debate the points. at least atheists are starting from the ground floor, metaphorically.

Qphox wrote:But as you said above, the works carry less importance than the beliefs; morality doesn't matter, all that is important is that you believe in God......but African Tribespeople have no physical beliefs in your God. They only have a conscience, and as you've said, that's not enough.....unless of course they have no medium by which to be taught about the Lord, which obviously they don't because they lack faith.

honestly what i was giving before wasnt the full answer, because i was sick of debating. but, i have been misunderstood, so i will try to re-convey more fully. FAITH AND WORKS GO HAND-IN-HAND. i believe the basic faith is the most important part, but it has been said that faith without works is dead. if you arent doing good things in your life, than the basic faith is questionable, and if you dont have the basic belief, what is the point of works? God will find a way for the "african tribespeople" to find him. you will not find a single person on this planet that has not concieved of the idea of a greater power. why is this? GOD. if people dont go to the far reaches of the earth to spread Gods word (this would be evangilism, an example of good works, so these people are doing Gods will), God will find a way to give them the opportunity to believe in him, even if they cant get ahold of the Bible or anything.

qphox wrote:Thus, to summarize your views: Morality only plays a role in a person's acceptance into heaven if they have not otherwise heard of the Lord.

actually, to summarize my views would take a lot longer than 2 lines, and i think i did a reasonably job above of explaning my views. The important part is faith, and faith in God leads to the desire to do good works for Him. the metaphor often used in the bible is a tree that doesnt produce fruit is like a believer who doesnt lead a life that pleases God.

i wont bother to quote what you just said...you know what you said. actually, neither of you will get into heaven if the tribesman does not have a concrete belief in God.

Hood, if you want to say something, at least have a point...lodge an ACTUAL point to the debate...you can just say: 'you're logic has holes' but specific examples are always nice too, so then i can offer a rebuttal. the only thing i can discuss with what you said is...yes, there is more capacity for my rants.

by the way, i am a 'practicing' christian. this does not mean i lead a perfect life, i just recognize the things that i do wrong. i wish i was a better person...i actually make christians look bad by being so similar to everyone else. not to mention not being able to properly debate for believing in God, but i try.

Tsai, do you think you are so smart that the ways of a cosmic being (aka God) would make sense to you? i realize this is a lame argument, but true nonetheless. you should recognize the system as fairness rather than nonsense. of course getting into heaven would depend on man...thats like saying if you are on trial, what you have to say is completely unrelated and ignored. again, i realize you cant compare examples of real life to Gods judgement, but its the best i can do.

hooo boy. i think im done. well, until someone calls me an ass and tells me my logic is flawed. just remember...if faith was based on logic, i would be an atheist too.

by the way, james, if even you feel the need to jump back into the argument and call me an ass, i wont mind. i would take it better from you than anyone else, i think

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 08 Mar 2005 13:46

me : Your honor, I've believed in the Legal system and all it's laws since 1983. I know, and you know, I haven't followed the laws, but just believing is enough. You know that. Now why don't you behave like God; set aside your place to pass judgement on this case and let me go where I want to go. I believed, I still believe, and I was sorry everytime I broke the law.

Judge: I think you should go to hell, but since you truly believed in the law, you are free to go.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 08 Mar 2005 13:49

ahem...if God really did work like the legal system of our world, would he really be special at all? the point is, there is no comparison. its not an applicable metaphor

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 14 Mar 2005 20:31

The only point of veiw that I have is my own, and I see lot's of other people walking around, but I am not them. I do not experience them. When I look down at my fingers typing away at the keyboard, my rational mind 'knows' they are a foot and half away, but the distance feels like infinite. The environment I matured in affected me...or did my decisions create the world around me? I am a human under a god, or am I a human who is a schizoprenic god, trying to understand myself, maybe by trying to understand myself, I am not doing my job in the universe, and some other entity is gonna set me straight.

I think the world is much more than the world we think we percieve.

spell check*

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 14 Mar 2005 21:26

Peter Bowler wrote:God will find a way for the "african tribespeople" to find him. you will not find a single person on this planet that has not concieved of the idea of a greater power. why is this? GOD.

I really don't like this argument. God must exist because man was able to conceive him? How about *anything else* humanity has ever imagined? I myself am forced to believe in something greater than myself because of the fact that my universe is over 10 billion years old (possibly as much as 18 billion years old), and I am a mere 19. Just think about that for a second.

15,000,000,000 years.
19 years.

There is more to all of this than me, or you, or anyone else.

The consideration of such an idea in no way serves to prove the existence of a God.

Peter Bowler wrote:...if people dont go to the far reaches of the earth to spread Gods word (this would be evangilism, an example of good works, so these people are doing Gods will), God will find a way to give them the opportunity to believe in him, even if they cant get ahold of the Bible or anything.

*cough* Manifest Destiny?

This is something else.
If all humanity is clearly able- No, compelled to conceive the idea of a God, what need is there for God to work through others to spread his name?

Your ideas seem to conflict.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 06:05

aw shit, i was afraid this whole debate would come back to haunt me some more. oh well.

lesse.

I really don't like this argument. God must exist because man was able to conceive him? How about *anything else* humanity has ever imagined? I myself am forced to believe in something greater than myself because of the fact that my universe is over 10 billion years old (possibly as much as 18 billion years old), and I am a mere 19. Just think about that for a second.

15,000,000,000 years.
19 years.

There is more to all of this than me, or you, or anyone else.

The consideration of such an idea in no way serves to prove the existence of a God.

haha. firstly, you arent FORCED to believe anything, especially not based on the fact that the idea of a God has entered the minds of many billions of people in the history of mankind, dating back to the first person, who had a much more concrete relationship with that same God. all i was trying to state here, is that wouldnt it be weird if all of those billions of people had just coincidently thought about the existence of a God on their own? i was merely suggesting that perhaps it is God himself that helps us realize his existence by being that 'quiet voice inside of us' and through stuff like that. i wasnt trying to say that this one idea proves the existence of God. ESPECIALLY since i said awhile back in this debate that it is pointless to argue because i CANNOT prove that God exists to you, as you very well know. it is partly based on a blind belief, unfortunatly. but, of course, you cannot prove that God doesnt exist either, this, ironically, is also based partly on blind belief...or disbelief.

manifest destiny? ha! have you heard much about missionaries? i personally know some. please, tell me you dont think they are trying to take over or anything, or i will be FORCED to get a letter my family recieved not long ago from this missionary, to show how he is "trying to take over, or take their lands' or something like that. if you want me to, i will type out excerpts...its actually quite interesting...

the reason God speaks for himself by mentally introducing us to the idea of his existence, and also through other people, are for many reasons. one is that we are MUCH more likely to believe it if we have multiple sources. if you got an idea that aliens existed, but no one else thought so, you wouldnt be likely to believe it for long. thats why evangilism takes place...because the 'african tribes' are sadly disadvantaged by having less contact with Christians. so missionaries go out and try to encourage the ones that may already believe, and try to convert those who dont.

God could easily have made us all robots who were born into this world with the CONCRETE KNOWLEDGE that he exists. but he wished for us all to have free will, make our own decisions, live our own lives, and yet still CHOOSE to live for him and have a relationship with him.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 15 Mar 2005 09:32

[quote="Mr. Bowler]...dating back to the first person, who had a much more concrete relationship with that same God.[/quote]

Oh man, don't tell me you're a creationist.

I just finished pointing out that the universe is over 10 billion years old, and now you're telling me to believe the book of Genesis to be a factual account of history?

Don't make me talk about dinosaurs.

[quote="Mr. Bowler]...wouldnt it be weird if all of those billions of people had just coincidently thought about the existence of a God on their own?[/quote]

I don't think that everyone in the world has "thought of God" on their own. How about that Jesus guy? He rallied up some followers, didn't he? I often hear devout Christians arguing the side of religion based on the fact that it has been around for so long. "If Jesus was nothing special, why is he still followed?" I wasn't given a chance to "think of God" on my own, I was raised in the Church, where I was taught that the existence of God is FACT. I believed that until I was old enough to think for myself, and then I chose to "think that religion is bunkt".

I disagree with how a religion operates. And due to that, due to everything I see around me, I reject the idea of God. I guess I've passed up a choice that God has given me to believe in him, but I think I need a better reason than, "You thought of him because he made you think it."

That in itself shows that I am not in control. God is. And yet I, in the driver's seat, have strayed from religion. Why would he allow that? Clearly he's got more than enough power to recruit such people as yourself, so why would he just let me doom myself to an eternity of fire? Why was he unable to get me to see the benefit of religion?

Well I guess it doesn't matter if I burn in hell because God loves me, right? Only love could lead me to such a fate.

[quote="Mr. Bowler Hat]manifest destiny? ha![/quote]

Yes! How do you know you're right? Native people of North America were doing fine with their spirituality, Tribespeople of Africa no doubt are doing just as well. They'd conceived their God, but Christianity said, "No, you're wrong. We'll show you how it really is." and it aimed to CONVERT them.

I said this before, but if everyone's able to conceive God for themselves, (you said that) WHAT need is there for missionaries? Faith and Religion and Spirituality has developed in different ways around the world, but only the Christians are correct. THAT's what I mean by Manifest Destiny.

[quote="Mr. Bowler Hat]so missionaries go out and try to encourage the ones that may already believe, and try to convert those who dont. [/quote]

You mean 'try to teach those who don't', right? I mean, missionaries wouldn't dare reject any other religion. Because they're right, and they've got a book to back it up.