Inevitability of non-existence

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Mar 2005 09:44

Look, God created the dinosaurs on a different world, aged them billions of years and deposited them encased in the ice of giant comets that filled the oceans, and gave him somewhere to create the first fish . Shortly thereafter man was made, and then 6000 years later here we are.

It's all an elaborate plan to allow man to choose if he believes in magical hokus pokus god that hasn't stepping in to stop any genocides but really cares about the united states and our efforts to privatise social security.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 10:03

mr. i cant do a quote correctly... :D nah, im kidding wrote:Oh man, don't tell me you're a creationist.

Kev, of COURSE im a creationist!! im saddened that after all we have debated and discussed, you wouldnt have guessed as much. now, this is off-topic, but i think its interesting and open to debate. i am a creationist, BUT i think its possible that evolution DID take place (of course there is a lot of scientific evidence to suggest as much), but God was the one who began the process. im not positive about that...but i think its POSSIBLE. im kind of on the fence about the idea, but thats a minor point in the big scheme of things, and maybe someday i will decide what i believe on the topic.
feel free to discuss dinosaurs.

i think people WOULD think of God on their own, if they werent provided with an outside influence (family, friends, missionaries, whatever) that tells them about God. of course if you thought of it on your own, you wouldnt have all the same ideas regarding who God is and what he does, but thats why there are different demoninations.

RevKev wrote:I don't think that everyone in the world has "thought of God" on their own. How about that Jesus guy? He rallied up some followers, didn't he? I often hear devout Christians arguing the side of religion based on the fact that it has been around for so long. "If Jesus was nothing special, why is he still followed?" I wasn't given a chance to "think of God" on my own, I was raised in the Church, where I was taught that the existence of God is FACT. I believed that until I was old enough to think for myself, and then I chose to "think that religion is bunkt".

haha, thats why you didnt hear ME argue that God must exist because people are still talking about him. i have heard Christians use that argument before, and i agree with you, it is a lame argument. i wouldnt use it in a debate with such a rheotorically-advanced debator such as yourself

it would be an insult to your intelligence, and you would be able to shut that point down pretty quickly. thats another reason i havent bothered to push the idea of "i believe in God...just because...i know He is there, i can feel him..." stuff like that is even WORSE in a debate. of course, i DO believe that, but its negligable in a debate, and would make me look like an ass to spew. BUT.
yes, you deciding that God doesnt exist, despite being raised in a church environment is a perfect picture of free will at work. God gives us opportunities to accept him, especially if we are lucky enough to be raised in a church-minded environment, such as yourself, but eventually the decision comes down to ourselves alone. God isnt going to force anyone to believe him, he gives us positive influences (both in terms of families and friends and stuff, and of the knowledge of the bible, if we are lucky, and the Holy Spirit ((conscience)) to aid us in making decisions), and hopes we make the right decision.

Kev wrote:That in itself shows that I am not in control. God is. And yet I, in the driver's seat, have strayed from religion. Why would he allow that? Clearly he's got more than enough power to recruit such people as yourself, so why would he just let me doom myself to an eternity of fire? Why was he unable to get me to see the benefit of religion?

jeez kev, i just tried to explain this in my last post...lemme take a look and see how i did, or if i can alter it so you understand, or perhaps even accept it as a valid argument. aright. i thought i did a pretty good job.
i said that God "is unable to get you to see the benefit of religion" because he doesnt want to FORCE you to do or believe anything. he wanted humans to have free will to believe in him, he wasnt interested in a bunch of robots that all repeat: 'we love you God, we believe in you God, we will do anything you say, God" he wants us to love him based on our own free will, not because he forces us to do or believe anything.

Kevin R wrote:Yes! How do you know you're right? Native people of North America were doing fine with their spirituality, Tribespeople of Africa no doubt are doing just as well. They'd conceived their God, but Christianity said, "No, you're wrong. We'll show you how it really is." and it aimed to CONVERT them.

I said this before, but if everyone's able to conceive God for themselves, (you said that) WHAT need is there for missionaries? Faith and Religion and Spirituality has developed in different ways around the world, but only the Christians are correct. THAT's what I mean by Manifest Destiny.

[quote="Mr. Bowler Hat]so missionaries go out and try to encourage the ones that may already believe, and try to convert those who dont.

You mean 'try to teach those who don't', right? I mean, missionaries wouldn't dare reject any other religion. Because they're right, and they've got a book to back it up.[/quote]

haha, this is funny. every religion trys to convince/convert people who believe differently. at least lots of missionaries not only talk about God, they also build schools and houses (again, i speak from personal knowledge...my father ((he is a pastor)) has been on many many missions trips, and often more than just preaching, they build houses and schools). but yes, every religion is trying to convince everyone else that they are right...including....

ATHEISTS!!!!!
yes! not believing in God is just as much religion as believing anything else. and here you are, trying to convince me that you are right, and i am wrong. i was doing fine in my belief of God before you starting debating with me about it (actually, im still doing fine in my belief...almost better, thanks to debating you), to convince me that im wrong (dont try to tell me you arent trying to convince me, that would be nonsense)

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 10:05

haha, that embaressing, i fucked up one of my quotes, trying to prove that you cant quote right. disregard that!

ps-i DO actually own a bowler hat...looks down right spiffy on me too

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Mar 2005 10:08

atheism is not a religion. I'm an atheist.

My religion lies somewhere in the ideals expressed in many ancient texts, and living those lessons.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 10:24

how do you define religion?? i think even agnosticism and atheism are religions. you BELIEVE that MY God (and the God of many other people) doesnt exist.

and you only believe in living the lessons in ancient texts that you AGREE with. that seems nearly hypocritical. you might as well disregard the ancient texts and just live according to random morals that you agree with. who knows what those are...

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Mar 2005 10:52

It's not a religion, it's nothing. I spend an average of zero seconds a day disbelieving in your god.

I think of religion kinda like this.

You walk around all day worried that an invisible SUV is going to run you over if you don't cross at the crosswalks. You have never seen an invisible SUV. You have never heard an invisible SUV. You don't know anyone who has ever seen the invisible SUV. You have never seen anyone get hit by the invisible SUV. Still, you are convinced of it's existence and worry all the time about getting hit because sometimes you think it might have been the breeze from an invisible SUV that just brushed your face.

I have never seen an invisible SUV, I have never heard an invisible SUV, I don't know any body who has ever seen an invisible SUV. I waste no effort or thought on the invisible SUV, nor on those who are consumed by avoiding a collision with one. It's a zero effort process. I don't believe the invisible SUV doesn't exist, it's silly to even ponder the existence of somehting for which there is no evidence.

Indeed I do live by a collection of random morals I gathered from a good many old texts, and I do agree with all of the lessons I follow. I have choosen for myself what I believe to be a good set of ideals to live by, to minimize conflict, and maximize my chances of survival.

Are you saying you live your life by a collection of morals somebody else selected , and you don't agree with all of them ? Is this the free will he would want to see exhibited ?

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 15 Mar 2005 10:55

slapdash21 wrote:i said that God "is unable to get you to see the benefit of religion" because he doesnt want to FORCE you to do or believe anything. he wanted humans to have free will to believe in him, he wasnt interested in a bunch of robots that all repeat: 'we love you God, we believe in you God, we will do anything you say, God" he wants us to love him based on our own free will, not because he forces us to do or believe anything.

How do you know what God wants? Furthermore, he would already know what each and everyone of us will do with this limited knowledge of him. An all-knowing, omnipotent God rejects the concept of free will. I think someone already said that though.

Atheism isn't a religion. Yes, I don't believe in your god, but I don't base my life around that belief. You base yours around the fact that he does and it affects everything you do. That is religion. I don't choose to do or not to do things because I don't believe in god.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 11:12

tsia, that metaphor is completely flawed, and nearly completely inapplicable. it might make SOME sense if christians DID spend every waking moment of their life in FEAR of being hit by something. by your metaphor, i would think of my belief (i dont like using the word religion...its confining) as a person who has seen and felt the effects of this 'invisible suv' and there are lots of people who feel the same way, but there are also lots of people who refuse to believe in it, because they think if they dont believe in something, even if it does exist (which there is no proof of in either direction) it cant affect them. the people who realize the suv exists are trying desperately to get the unbelieving people to realize that they are steps away from being crushed by it.
but in any case, i wont bother arguing with that metaphor anymore, because comparing the creator and supreme judge of this universe to an invisible suv has less parallels that comparing a hurricane to a molecule of hydrogen.

Brad,
obviously you base the decisions you make on a daily basis on SOMETHING. otherwise all of the decisions you made would be completely random, and im sure there is an obvious trend. so why are you right to base all of your decisions on who-knows-what when i at least have something slightly more concrete to base my decisions on.
haha, even if God does know what decisions i or you are going to make, doesnt mean we dont have a choice. God knows what we are going to do, but he always gives us opportunities to do the right thing, and encourages us to do the right thing...which might be the reason we DO the right thing sometimes. its a hard concept to get your head around, since its based on ideas that humans dont fully understand, but why WOULD a God who created this universe be bound by the logic of it? that would lower and simplify God.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 11:17

oh, and one more thing. about atheism being a religion. obviously, what you label something doesnt really matter, so this particular part of the debate doesnt matter much, but i mostly think its funny to say that christians are always trying to convince other people that they are right, when, oh my goodness, you are doing the same thing to me! religion doesnt necessarily entail thinking about something 24/7, religion is more a personal thing, that is defined by each your own self. but, the idea of a more powerful being has been a large focus of people's attention throughout the history of humans, so clearly it is (or should be) a reasonably important thing to think about and make a decision about, and clearly you have thought a lot about it. the things you believe or disbelieve are your religion. why are you so scared of me putting an indefinite label on the things you believe?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Mar 2005 11:32

It's a parable, a short story designed to convey a lesson.

The SUV is the Great and Mighty, He who hath created all that is around, above and below. The cross walk is a metaphore to the commandments. The worry is the constant conflilct in the hearts and souls of every good christian soldier. The breeze in the face is a metaphore to the belief that one can feel God, and that God is there if you just look hard enoug, often to the point of delusion. . . . thinking random events happened FOR ones-self, when the event merely happened.

It's actually not that bad of a story as I read it again. . . The lesson of course is there are a lot of people in the world worried about getting hit by an invisible SUV if they step outside the crosswalks. These people believe so strongly that they will kill a man for not using the crosswalk, to save him from being smitten by an invisible SUV. Some people go so far as to build elaborate garages to house the invisible SUV, and people come from all over the region to bask in it's glory each week and sing praises to it's 26 inch rims and chip in a little gas money.

full nelson · Post by **full nelson** » 15 Mar 2005 11:45

slapdash21 wrote:oh, and one more thing. about atheism being a religion. obviously, what you label something doesnt really matter, so this particular part of the debate doesnt matter much, but i mostly think its funny to say that christians are always trying to convince other people that they are right, when, oh my goodness, you are doing the same thing to me! religion doesnt necessarily entail thinking about something 24/7, religion is more a personal thing, that is defined by each your own self. but, the idea of a more powerful being has been a large focus of people's attention throughout the history of humans, so clearly it is (or should be) a reasonably important thing to think about and make a decision about, and clearly you have thought a lot about it. the things you believe or disbelieve are your religion. why are you so scared of me putting an indefinite label on the things you believe?

I define religion by how it's defined in the dicitonary. I don't make up my own definintions for words.

I don't care if you believe in god or not. I'm not trying to make you lose faith. Your perspective seems so strange to me that I just like to ask questions about it. I don't know about you, but I've never had an atheist missionary knock on my door. I have been approached by baptists, mormons and lutherans though.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 12:02

it makes me that sad (see small yellow face above) to ponder how unintelligent i am thought of. first of all, tsia, i would know what a parable is in any circumstances, but you are speaking with an avid read of the bible, in which there are a large number of parables. second of all, i comprehended the point you were trying to make through your parable, but i disagree with its validity as a parable, because it makes God more dimunative to be able to be explained in such a short, simple, misguided way.
i mean really tsia, how dumb do you think i am?? would you really be able to debate with me this long if i was THAT stupid? and i will assume you ACCIDENTLY spelled metaphor with an 'e' at the end. (dont bother bitching about how i type...spelling is pretty much all i care about when im typing casually. any spelling errors i make, feel free to point out) i honestly would think that if i was as stupid as you think i am, this debate wouldnt have gone on as long as it has. it isnt easy being on my end of the argument, honestly, and i was never one to be able to debate at all for my own beliefs. im sure lots of people think i have done a pretty poor job of debating...but, again, its not easy on my end, especially when it seems i am the only one really arguing FOR belief in God.
dont worry, tsia, i would never kill you for not believing in God. in fact, that would accomplish nothing, of course. or for not following the morals that i do.
but again, your parable...makes no sense. i mean, it must make sense to you, but you are trying to explain how lots of people feel and act towards God, and you certainly arent doing a good job of explaning how I feel towards God. it sounds more like you are explaning how people felt and acted towards Baal in the old testament...he is just some impersonal diety that engendered more fear than anything else.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 12:09

brad,
i would feel justified in saying that you are doing more than asking me questions about my faith, and i would feel vindicated if you admitted that it was true, but i dont think you will. honestly i feel like we are on a pretty level playing field of you trying to poke holes in my belief, and me basically trying to do the same of your disbelief. or at least just trying to defend my beliefs...its hard to go on the offensive when you're mostly struggling to defend what you already have.
haha, its funny (though completely beside the point, so dont feel that im arguing anything here) but there are definitely mormons that are a lot more dedicated to their faith than a lot of Christians. i realize this is self-deprecating and sad, but its interesting, and i wish i had the faith and dedication that a lot of other religions have of believers within their ranks.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 15 Mar 2005 13:54

“In the beginning, there was Man who created Santa in his own image.”

Rationally, we must assume that things do not exist unless we have evidence that they do. Most of the people who believe in God follow this rule as well; for instance, they don't believe in unicorns, even though they cannot definitively prove that no unicorns exist anywhere. So, you don't have to provide evidence for something which does not exist. However, if you claim that something exists then you must bring objective and compelling supporting evidence for its existence. For me to believe that you have twenty billion dollars in your bank account, you must show me a statement of your account. And even if I truly believe (based on my own feelings) that you have twenty billion dollars; my belief does not make you rich when in fact you don't actually have this amount of money.

After thousands of years of effort, no one has come up with an impenetrable logical proof of the existence of God. Nevertheless, some people feel that they can logically prove that God exists. But, how much can you rely on your logic? The answer is, unfortunately, not much. Reality is not decided by logic because logical rules do not always preserve truth. This could be due to the presence of a flaw in the system of your logic such as wrong premises. Therefore, reality is not necessarily logically consistent.

Some people argue logically that since God is well-defined, then he or she must by definition exist. For example, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator of the universe; therefore, God exists. Well, you know quite enough about the definition of Santa Claus such as his look, outfit, reindeer, and many other things related to him. But, does this really mean that Santa Claus exists?

In the grand finale of mind, what I am left to find out what is really going on in this universe is observation. And of course, when logic and reality disagree, reality always wins. Therefore, after I come up with a clear definition of God, the only thing which can definitely convince me of the existence of God is to find an objective and imperious piece of evidence.

If there is a God who is omnipresent and in touch with our universe, the effects of his or her presence must be measurable and detectable. And if God is not objectively detectable, then I can conclude that God does not interact with our universe in any way. In this case, it makes no difference whether or not God exists.

Kids tend to believe whatever they are told, because they are gullible and naïve. The brain of a child is shaped by evolution to absorb anything, good thing, bad thing, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, unicorns, God, gods, and so on. It takes time before a child is grown up to realize that there is no such a thing as Santa Claus.

The question still remains: why is it easy for most people to rule out Santa Claus but not God from their life equation? I leave it up to you to answer this question.

Farzad Roohi

HG · Post by HG » 15 Mar 2005 14:08

Peter, tell me one instance where you have felt "GOD" has affected you or altered your life. Other than you believing him.

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 15 Mar 2005 16:30

you can base your morals on otheres experinces or how something seems to you not all morals are based on any religion and i know a great deal of good people who arent religious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=morals

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 15 Mar 2005 17:59

Tsia,
next time you quote something, try to analyze how most of it could easily be turned around by me and used to argue in the exact opposite direction, and maybe next time you wont quote someone else's long bullshit tirade. you certainly dont see ME doing that...if you are gonna use something i say against me, i at least want it to be MY words.
as childrens opinions are formed by their parents, so are atheist clones by supposedly philosophical bullcrap essays. the author is only lucky i cant talk directly to him, because i would call him a great artist...in the area of spewing horse shit. everyone forms their opinions based on things they have heard or read from other people, whether it be your parents or literature you have read. im glad you have shown me where your source was, because mine would be rather hard to trace. granted, my parents are christians, but after growing up believing in God, i went through a period of my life where i didnt. i decided the idea of God was bullshit, and if it was true, God was a prick. a few years went by, and some stuff happened, and completely apart from my parents (who i grew farther and farther from...i still honestly can say i hate my parents, and not feel like im being an immature angsty teenager) grew to realize that God definitely did exist.

tsia, how many times will i have to fucking say it? in how many ways? wow, good job, you have officialy stated, for the 50th time, that there is no concrete proof showing that God does exist. but, as i have said about as many times, there is no proof otherwise. the statement that there is no proof of the existence is a two-way street...there is no proof of existence, there is no proof of non-existence.
i have never claimed that i can prove that God exists through logic. in fact, i have never claimed to even be able to prove that he exists at all. why do i not make such a claim? because God's existence isnt based on logic...its a belief. if it was based on logic, a helluva lot more people would believe, and we wouldnt be arguing about it right now.
the affect that something has can almost always be attributed to something else. you tell me the economy is in a down-turn because Bush is president (maybe you do actually believe that...maybe not), but maybe i say its because immigrants are sneaking into America and stealing jobs (i dont actually fully believe that, and its not on-topic, so please dont bother arguing the point...at least not in this thread, but hopefully you understand the metaphor(with no 'e' at the end

) i say that im a lot more sure that God has a much larger influence on the universe than Bush or immigrants do on the economy, and that its a lot more evident...at least to me.

y'know hen, i could give you some examples of times in my life that God has altered my life, but most people would attribute these examples to "coincidence," no matter how dramatic and unbelievable the alteration is. i honestly believe that if i told you i had cancer, with a malevolent tumor on the surface of my brain the size of a toyota, and i prayed to God for it to go away, and it disappeared immediately, most non-believers wouldnt believe me, or would attribute it to luck or medicine or something else. so there really isnt much point in me saying anything on the subject, because no matter how dramatic my story is, it would take a lot more than a modern miracle to convince most people. its sad, but true.

dustin, definitions and labels arent important to me. assuming what you are saying is actually directed at me...

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 16 Mar 2005 09:35

dustin, definitions and labels arent important to me. assuming what you are saying is actually directed at me...

Wow, I got so confused there... way to go and steal my name

. But I would just like to say why I stopped putting my comments into this argument. It seems that weather or not there is an afterlife, or there isn't, it doesn't matter to me. I feel that I am living my life the way I wish it to be lived, so if I go to some nice place after I die that's just kind of an added bonus.

the Executioner · Post by **the Executioner** » 16 Mar 2005 17:50

Quote:

"It is somewhat humorus that a vital consciousness could even suppose itself to be the end product of inert elements that were themselves lifeless, but somehow managed to combine in such a way that your species attained fantasy, logic, vast organizational power, technologies and civilizations."

Quote:

"If you believe in the laws of cause and effect, as accepted, or in the laws of polarity, as accepted, then you will be bound by those laws, for they will represent your artistic technique. You will believe that you must use them in order to, say, paint the living portrait of your life. You will therefore structure your experience, drawing to yourself only that which fits. You will not have the "technique" to attract other experience, and as long as you stick with one technique your life-pictures will more or less have a certain monotony."

the Executioner · Post by **the Executioner** » 16 Mar 2005 18:06

This discussion to me feels stuck in a very limited framework.

Quote:

"If you believe in the laws of cause and effect, as accepted, or in the laws of polarity, as accepted, then you will be bound by those laws, for they will represent your artistic technique. You will believe that you must use them in order to, say, paint the living portrait of your life. You will therefore structure your experience, drawing to yourself only that which fits. You will not have the "technique" to attract other experience, and as long as you stick with one technique your life-pictures will more or less have a certain monotony."

Quote:

"It is somewhat humorus that a vital consciousness could even suppose itself to be the end product of inert elements that were themselves lifeless, but somehow managed to combine in such a way that your species attained fantasy, logic, vast organizational power, technologies and civilizations."