Inevitability of non-existence

the Executioner · Post by **the Executioner** » 16 Mar 2005 18:06

ha ha sorry for the double post.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 17 Mar 2005 09:29

slapdash21 wrote:i honestly believe that if i told you i had cancer, with a malevolent tumor on the surface of my brain the size of a toyota, and i prayed to God for it to go away, and it disappeared immediately, most non-believers wouldnt believe me, or would attribute it to luck or medicine or something else. so there really isnt much point in me saying anything on the subject, because no matter how dramatic my story is, it would take a lot more than a modern miracle to convince most people. its sad, but true.

I think the sad thing IMO, is to believe all/some of your mistakes/problems can be erased by something/someone you just "ask" to relieve you of. What happened to being self-dependent. If I had cancer, I really don't think praying would help me. Again, my opinion, but I would rather have medicine (proven to work) on my side than faith in something else hopefully curing me.

I don't feel being dependent on something that has yet to even show itself (you know what I mean) or that exists somewhere else unknown is a good way to live your life. It's like a living with your parents and acting like a child your whole life, its funny to some (don't believe), and reality for others (believe).

I know this might be off topic a little, but religion (every religion) will ultimately lead to the destruction of mankind, so I try to stay away from it as much as possible. I can't don't understand why I even responded to this

Don't be offended, I just think religion is unnecessary and it's a way to deal with a lack of self confidence in your life, or a fantasy of being part of something bigger

Now, tear me apart . . .

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 17 Mar 2005 10:05

well, I think the sad thing is how much you use the acronym "IMO." i realize its an easier way to say in my opinion, and maybe im irrational for being irritated by the excessiveness, but its also that it seems like a way to pander...like you dont want to take a firm stand and call me a dumbass. in a way its kind of nice, but hey, dont expect me to use it

haha, and i dont know who is going to tear you apart, but it certainly isnt me...just ask anybody else...i havent sucessfully torn ANYONE apart. at least not to the degree that i would like to.

first of all, this example of praying for a giant tumor to disappear...had little or nothing to do with the actual power of prayer. i dunno if you read it wrong or what, but i was trying to prove the point that some people are so convinced that God doesnt exist, that no miracle, no matter how dramatic, will convince them otherwise. such as cancer being instantly cured, based on belief in God, or prayer. so yeah...this was more of an example type thing. but, thats not to say i dont believe this is entirely possible, someone being cured of cancer through prayer. but also, dont let me give you the impression that im one of those guys that refuses medical treatment of any kind because i have faith in God...haha. people like that...retarded. God has given us the brains to study medicine, and the technology to develop it, so we could use it for our own benefit. medicine is not evil...on the contrary, it is very beneficial, and i believe (oh wow, thats a lot like saying 'in my opinion'...my bad) that God provided us with the brains to develop stuff that would help us in life. obviously. so i think its best to have the faith in God and the prayer, and also the best medical care you can afford.

really, this argument doesnt come down to being dependant on someone else...its much more basic than that. if you believed in God, then you woul realize the importance of being dependant on him, so obviously you dont even have the basic belief in his existance. but, i do seriously question how you could POSSIBLY think that religion will lead to the destruction of mankind. especially since religion in some form has existed just as long as mankind...which has been pretty much flourishing, as the world population continues to rise.

in your opinion people who believe in God are 'acting like children their whole lives.' i think you should really just be thinking that you are pretty damn lucky to have somehow come to be on a planet that can support life. or are you so self-dependant that you believe you can control the weather, and keep the planet spinning. i guess you do believe a lot in LUCK. well, i hope that works out for you.

i think denying God's existance is a way for people to make themselves feel less tiny and unimportant...did it work? has your ego been properly stroked and petted?

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 17 Mar 2005 10:06

though i DO completely agree with Mr. Irish...this debate has been going around in circles for quite awhile.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 17 Mar 2005 10:13

slapdash21 wrote: i think denying God's existance is a way for people to make themselves feel less tiny and unimportant...did it work? has your ego been properly stroked and petted?

It almost the exact opposite of this really. There is no ego boost from realising there is nothing special about one's self, one's species, one's planet, one's solar system, one's galaxy, and so on. Knowing that random chance has put me here is not exactly the ego boost someone would get from say having a religion that tells him he is God's favorite and special.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 17 Mar 2005 10:16

or, you could look at it as James R does, in that you are completely self-sufficient and can pretty much handle things on your own. humans are always guilty of this. as much as knowing that there is an all-powerful God that thinks of you as special and whatnot, your ego is kept in check by the fact that you know you are extremely small, weak and helpless.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 17 Mar 2005 10:33

Aren't all healthy animals created self sufficient ? Don't they all function fine without a God to guide them and tell them what they can and can't do ? Why should man need to believe he is the only animal created defective, such that he needs someone to inform him on the proper way to live, with threats of punishment, and promises of rewards, all depending on the choices made ?

Perhaps James is more correct than you think.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 17 Mar 2005 10:52

haha, we are now traveling BACKWARDS in the argument. God didnt create humans to be like the animals...he made man apart from the rest of the creatures of the earth. animals have no soul. you could almost say they have no free will, because they werent provided with enough intelligence to make large decisions, such as whether or not to believe in their creator. humans are not just another species of animal. all other creatures of the earth were created with no soul, but humans were created in the image of God himself. humans are actually advantaged by the soul and the close relationship with God...its not that we are defective...its that God cares more about us than the animals (its shown by the very fact that God put adam and the resulting mankind in charge of the care of the earth and its creatures).

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 17 Mar 2005 10:59

ok kinda off topic and kinda not has anyone noticed that all the doomed to a living hell have been posting there thoughts and ideas of what they believe to be right yet slap the believer in god who has the lord on his side and waves his flag of being right and moral has been tearing away at people calling then morons and assholes and idiots just for not belive he is right. your a christian dude forgiveness and understanding right. comon the aeithist who you say have no morlas other than drinking and getting high and having wild crazy sex with everything and not taking care of there lives have been respectful to you. plus they probably dont feel tiny and insignificant and need god. in your faith you need god to feel alive and all that but remember that even tho there not christians there still people and if you wanna convert them treating them like shit isnt the way to go. and in your religion if you dont save someone that you should save your at fault. this is the discussion forum not the flame house. you can disagree all you want and tell people how you disagree but damn have some respect. plus i was a jew my hole life and all my friends since day one were christians of all asortment and my cosin is a preacher so ive heard it all. my look on it is live a good life treat people right and dont be a "bad person" and you can live a happy life. i dont belive in a afterlife i belive that we were "granted" life and this is a present to treasure not try to go off and dig for more "gold"/"heaven". like if god gave us life to test to see if were good enough to be with him seems like a shitty way to do it and the way tsaing wrote of the gate keeper thing was a realing nice way to put it. and another thing jews were given a hole bible to follow by then one day god said oh fuck it now the jews are doomed to hell. thats kidnda shiting on the first born eh.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 17 Mar 2005 11:23

im almost pleased to read that post, dustin. but, i dont think i have been doing a very good job of actually flaming people (not since i called james a fucking idiot awhile back), so some of those compliments are undeserved.

wait... WHAT?!?! those werent compliments?? oh, ok. lemme change my tune then. dude, im not flaming anyone any more than im getting flamed myself, and im sorry if i hurt anyone's feelings (oh wait, no im not) but i honestly feel like i have been more mature in my arguing since calling james an idiot, which i regret to a point. i dont think i have personally attacking anyone in awhile, and i have been doing my gosh-darndest to keep my arguments logical and semi-respectful. i never said any atheist has no morals, and i didnt say that any of them only do stuff like that. reread what i have posted and tell me exactly where i said that.
also, i said i was the one that felt tiny and insignificant. i dont mean to be disrespectful (ok, in this case i kind of do...) but try actually reading and comprehending what i write, and perhaps what im saying wont seem to rude. and i dont hate any of the people that im arguing with just because they arent christians. most of them (maybe all of them? i would have to think about that one...) seem like really good guys. besides...every post i have made contains at least one valid argument...no single post i have made only insults the character of anyone that im debating with. go ahead...check. even the post where i disrespected james had a lot of content that pertained directly to the topic at hand.
long story short, i SHOULD be more respectful, i shouldnt swear, i shouldnt insult people like i do (by the way, i DO NOT insult non-christians any more than i do christians, in this debate or any other time). if you know so much about christians, you should know they arent perfect people, and i struggle with stuff more than most christians, i think. and especially when im talking to people about God and stuff, i should be more respectful. but, long story short, i will flame people as much as i feel they are flaming me...or actually, probably moreso.
anyway. like i said earlier, try actually reading my posts, and perhaps i wont seem so bad. or maybe i will, but at least you will be able to reply to what i have said in a way that makes some sense...like you wont blatantly misquote me...
have a nice day!

(by the way...'slap the believer'... haha...its catchy)

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 17 Mar 2005 13:48

slapdash21 wrote:i realize its an easier way to say in my opinion, and maybe im irrational for being irritated by the excessiveness, but its also that it seems like a way to pander...like you dont want to take a firm stand and call me a dumbass. in a way its kind of nice, but hey, dont expect me to use it

Yeah, maybe I should have worded it somewhat like

"your opinion is worthless to me, you are a stupid human being for not believing everything that I believe, please kill yourself for not agreeing with my following statements, and go F yourself!"

Would that have really been better? I thought I was doing the right thing to do when you debate, no personal attacks, and don't force opinons on people, eh, I never took debate in highschool

slapdash21 wrote:if you believed in God, then you would realize the importance of being dependant on him, so obviously you dont even have the basic belief in his existance.

My opinion is (take that

) that if it hasn't affected my life not believing in a "god", or similar figure, I would be as bold to say it won't in the future. Sure, believing in Santa Clause is important to little kids, like I said, the fantasy of being part of something magical or mysterious makes a person feel special and needed. As you do in your belief in God.

slapdash21 wrote:but, i do seriously question how you could POSSIBLY think that religion will lead to the destruction of mankind. especially since religion in some form has existed just as long as mankind...which has been pretty much flourishing, as the world population continues to rise.

I'm not clear on your understanding of the history of all regions, such as christianity, judism, and islam. These people have been killing each other, IN THE NAME OF GOD, for thousands of years. The crusades are a prime example, I mean fuck, the catholics sent thousands of children to be slaughtered in Jeruselam in the belief that God would not let them be harmed! Only recent technology can enable these hate wars to affect everybody on a global scale, such as nuclear and biological weapons (I hate the acronym WMD) The hate only seems to esculate as time goes on. So yes, I stand by my statement.

It's also funny that the bible (sorry, I haven't read, so don't hold my everyword, just what religion class has told me) depicts the end of the world, floods, war and what not. I used to believe it to be false prophetry, but when your trying to cause an apocalypse according to how it happens in your religious scriptures, I will, in turn, blame religion for the end of the world. in our time, quite possible. From what I have learned, religion is very decitful. It has cause millions of deaths, and they just keep piling up.

slapdash21 wrote:i think you should really just be thinking that you are pretty damn lucky to have somehow come to be on a planet that can support life. or are you so self-dependant that you believe you can control the weather, and keep the planet spinning. i guess you do believe a lot in LUCK. well, i hope that works out for you.

Eh, I don't believe I can control the weather or keep the planet spinning. But I think gravity and the arrangment of the planets have something to do with that, I'm not a professor so I won't claim to know that. As to being self-dependant, yes, I believe that I can control myself, but not things such as the planets rotation. Why are you trying to quickly judge it as "god's doing" for those things? When you rule out every other possible scientific situation for those things creations, I will believe in a "god" that controls weather and rotation. You know full well I cannot do those things, as of now

slapdash21 wrote:i think denying God's existance is a way for people to make themselves feel less tiny and unimportant...did it work? has your ego been properly stroked and petted?

Actually I think its a more logical and humanlike perspective of life and it enables dealing with problems that actually can be dealth with, instead of argueing who's god is right, better, most loved, etc or am I pleasing this imaginary figure? Am I angering it? What can I do to make myself look better?. Unicorns and god hold the same validity, and thats a fact, what do you believe?

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 17 Mar 2005 14:15

The neverending argument over who's right.

This argument is useless and futile. To believe that living for a god is the logical approach to how to live your life you must believe in a god. If you don't believe in a god then you're not bound by that way of thinking thus being in a totally different mindset. This separation is bad and only distances us from each other, but unfortunately it is a reality and until we can abolish one way of thinking or the other we must merely accept the other side as being in a totally different world as us and not try to bring them into our own way of thinking.

Believe in my god so that you can accept the consequences faced by people who do not believe in my god.

Don't believe in a god so that you don't have to accept the beliefs that have been associated with that certain god.

Religion is just another excuse to pit people against each other.

But if you believe, you believe.

This world would be much more peaceful if everyone believed without question one religion.

But this world would also be a much more peaceful place if nobody believed in god thus abolishing religion and a major topic of conflict.

Seath · Post by **Seath** » 17 Mar 2005 14:20

I use 'thus' to sound logical. did it work?

crazydwarf · Post by **crazydwarf** » 17 Mar 2005 15:06

I use 'thus' to sound logical. did it work?

That's the coolest reason to use thus ever

ok kinda off topic and kinda not has anyone noticed that all the doomed to a living hell

This reminds me of an interesting argument brought up in a book. If we are dead before we go to hell then we have no bodies correct? But if we have no bodies then we have no nerves, and therefore no sense of pain, so how does fire and all that hurt us. Of course this only works for like a litteral interpretation of hell, but I think it's pretty funny.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 18 Mar 2005 12:10

Seath wrote:The neverending argument over who's right.

This argument is useless and futile. To believe that living for a god is the logical approach to how to live your life you must believe in a god. If you don't believe in a god then you're not bound by that way of thinking thus being in a totally different mindset. This separation is bad and only distances us from each other, but unfortunately it is a reality and until we can abolish one way of thinking or the other we must merely accept the other side as being in a totally different world as us and not try to bring them into our own way of thinking.

Believe in my god so that you can accept the consequences faced by people who do not believe in my god.

Don't believe in a god so that you don't have to accept the beliefs that have been associated with that certain god.

Religion is just another excuse to pit people against each other.

But if you believe, you believe.

This world would be much more peaceful if everyone believed without question one religion.

But this world would also be a much more peaceful place if nobody believed in god thus abolishing religion and a major topic of conflict.

mhmdmfmdgffuckit. you're right seath. im done man.

HG · Post by HG » 19 Mar 2005 14:16

james · Post by **james** » 19 Mar 2005 18:47

Woah there Henry, don't be hatin' on the thread, the concept is an absolute must to ponder and pander about. It's the posts that suck, like yours for instance.

HG · Post by HG » 19 Mar 2005 18:50

i know i was just cracking up over those pictures on ebaumsworld. I had to use them, and this was the first thread i saw. I of course realize that this IS and important debate, if it was possible to persuade someone one way or the other. Essentially, if you are debating in this thread, you are just throwing your opinion out there for people to read. There is no way anyone on either side of this argument is going to change their mind.

james · Post by **james** » 19 Mar 2005 19:01

exactimundo, which is why I now regret having started this thread.

Ok everyone I have an announcement to make, stop posting in this thread so it can move down to the bottom with the rest of the catfish.

qphox · Post by **qphox** » 19 Mar 2005 23:44

An earth-shaking event happened today that changed my life forever.

I am now a faithful follower of Jesus Christ.