Right to Life

[Colin]

Smooth move Colin.

Bleh. The second one has a minor edit in it.

[C-Fan]

I can be whatever I want to be. Still doesn't dispute the fact that you are ok with a human starving to death.

1. I am not OK with a human starving to death. I have never said that. In none of my posts do I state my position on the issue of Euthanasia. So far, my posts have dealt with:

a. The constitutional repercussions of the President and Congress passing laws over the authority of State courts.

b. The fact that PVS isn`t diagnosable via video (although Senator Frist apparently thinks he can), and that the fact she is in PVS isn`t debatable.

c. Your laziness and irresponsibility in not checking up on the `facts` you present as core elements of your argument. Your post on what constitutes PVS shows you didn`t do your homework, and then there`s the whole Nobel-doctor thing. To recap:

Damon: "A Nobel-prize winning doctor says Schiavo isn`t in PVS"
Me: "Really? What`s his name?"
Damon: "Actually, he was nominated for a Nobel prize, but didn`t win it. "
Me: "I just googled his name (not very hard). He never was nominated for a Nobel, and in fact was disciplined by the Florida Medical Board."
Damon: " Whoops! I`m sorry, I should have researched my claims before posting them. Sorry for my sloppy academic approach."

Oh wait, that last exchange never happened.

Murderer

I called you a hypocrite because you told me to "look deeper" when making my arguments, yet you can`t be bothered to even google the basic facts in the arguments you present. Not only that, you don`t bother to acknowledge that key elements of your argument have been disproven. If you ask any High School English class to read this thread, and identify who is a hypocrite based on the arguments presented, they would identify you. Did I insult you by calling you a hypocrite? Yes. Is it justified by what you`ve written here? Yes.

You calling me a `murderer` isn`t justifiable by any means. You`re just bitter that I was able to disprove so many of your core arguments by performing simple google searches in under 30 seconds. Grow up Damon.

Justify that Ken

Like I said, I`ve never advocated the position you claim I advocate. I don`t have to justify anything to you. That`s like me asking you to justify child pornography.

How old are you Damon? Show some respect and maturity. Calling me names, presenting half-assed and untrue arguments, and accusing me of beliefs which I don`t hold are all really childish behaviors.

I`m waiting on your apology, be it here or by PM.

[FlexThis]

Yeah, sorry I should have researched the qwack. Let's see:

1. I am not OK with a human starving to death. I have never said that. In none of my posts do I state my position on the issue of Euthanasia. So far, my posts have dealt with:

a. The constitutional repercussions of the President and Congress passing laws over the authority of State courts.

And I agree with that 100%

b. The fact that PVS isn`t diagnosable via video (although Senator Frist apparently thinks he can), and that the fact she is in PVS isn`t debatable.

OK - Frist is an idiot, I agree with that as well.

c. Your laziness and irresponsibility in not checking up on the `facts` you present as core elements of your argument. Your post on what constitutes PVS shows you didn`t do your homework, and then there`s the whole Nobel-doctor thing. To recap:

Yeah sorry about that . I can't control a liar. But it doesn't change my core position regardless if the cited Dr. is a qwack. They thought Socrates was a qwack too. My acceptance of Cransford's testimony based on the balloon video wasn't very high. I am not blind to what I am seeing, yet I like Frist cannot make a judgement based on video alone. Guess I would need years of educxation to boot.

EDIT: INSERT KENS CONVERSATION
Damon: "A Nobel-prize winning doctor says Schiavo isn`t in PVS"
Me: "Really? What`s his name?"
Damon: "Actually, he was nominated for a Nobel prize, but didn`t win it. "
Me: "I just googled his name (not very hard). He never was nominated for a Nobel, and in fact was disciplined by the Florida Medical Board."
Damon: " Whoops! Embarassed I`m sorry, I should have researched my claims before posting them. Sorry for my sloppy academic approach."

I called you a hypocrite because you told me to "look deeper" when making my arguments, yet you can`t be bothered to even google the basic facts in the arguments you present. Not only that, you don`t bother to acknowledge that key elements of your argument have been disproven. If you ask any High School English class to read this thread, and identify who is a hypocrite based on the arguments presented, they would identify you. Did I insult you by calling you a hypocrite? Yes. Is it justified by what you`ve written here? Yes.

You calling me a `murderer` isn`t justifiable by any means. You`re just bitter that I was able to disprove so many of your core arguments by performing simple google searches in under 30 seconds. Grow up Damon.

I would have, but I had to make a website for work real quick. Gotta love work . But you're right, and next time I'll research and practice what I preach.

Like I said, I`ve never advocated the position you claim I advocate. I don`t have to justify anything to you. That`s like me asking you to justify child pornography.

How old are you Damon? Show some respect and maturity. Calling me names, presenting half-assed and untrue arguments, and accusing me of beliefs which I don`t hold are all really childish behaviors.

I soooowwwwwwoooyyyyyyy Ken.

[Tsiangkun]

I didn't say to starve her to death, but I think the family should be able to put her down so to speak, nice and easy.

It's gone on long enough for this dude to cash in, and isn't that the Americn Dream ? To become wealthy overnight without having to work that hard for it ?

Why is it so hard to understand that he is just doing the american thing by capitalising on the situation and making lemonade from the lemons that life gave him.

and

would

you

please


think of the children. It's rediculous to think that children born today are being sentence to a lifetime on this planet. We need to be more considerate of others and provide a kinder gentler way out than starvation that is sure to come from our own consumption of large supplies of pretty much everything as if there will be no consequences.

So I think it's safe to compare this to the Mc Donald's coffee suit. Everyone hates the case, but you wish you were rich over night for being a dumbass. Lets just be proud of this man for finally accomplishing what is so very difficult for all of us, getting wealthy and not having to work that hard.

Seriously, I think we are all on the same side here. The lady should be put down in a kindler gentler way than starvation, and it sucks they are starving her. Unfortunately there are people starving all over the world, and when we look back at our expenditures on military aggression, and compare that to the number of people we could have saved from starvation by providing clean drinking water and edible food to the world, it becomes clear that congress is doing this because the baseball scandal was really more than they thought they signed up for, and needed a break before caving in for yet another bullshit proposak to save something from someone.

edit: no comment.

DoH !

[idain]

Not to sound cruel and heartless on my first post here, but doesn't cruelty imply that the subject of said cruelty would actually feel it? If there's no brain activity, schiavo wouldn't feel a thing . . .

[FlexThis]

After researching a few other doctors opinions on the subject per Ken's request I have come to the conclusion that Terri's brain is in seriously bad shape. It seems she lacks a cerebral cortex. Which Cameron has been saying all along.

Good job Cameron

The responces that appear in the video amount to a biochemical reaction of her brain stem and are basic reflexes and nothing more.

This changes things quite a bit for me at least.

I still believe that there should be a better means for putting down humans other than starvation. Yet believe it or not, this is the accepted means in the medical community for dying patients a good 80% of the time. I guess I can see that, just seems like with all our technology we could find a quicker and less strenuous way to go.

No more debate from me.

[Tsiangkun]

It seems unfortunately cruel, both for the patient being starved, and the workers who have to watch people die of starvation.

[HighDemonslayer]

A truly sad case indeed. That are many aspects to this case, but starving someone is a terrible act. And not just starving, no water is allowed either.

At least if you had water, your cells could lubricate themselves and your eyes wouldn't dry out.

Even if it were proper to kill her........

The judge, and the husband are fucking cowards for not ordering an injection of poison or powerful opiates.

"Oh No, I don't want to be held responsible for her death and end it quick, so we'll just let her waste away, that way it's not my fault."

What a load af crap. Most Americans would not condone treating a dog like this. Even if the dog wanted it.
------------------------------------------------------------

Of course I dont think she should be killed, but I wanted this to be a short post. I have plenty more red meat to make us uncomfortable .

-n

[FlexThis]

By all means dish away. I'd personally like to hear what you think on the subject as I have read many many many responces now to this tragic case.

[HighDemonslayer]

I'll save the dangers of Euthanasia for a later post.....


This issue should be seen as a huge victory for men, and their dominance over women's lives.

Men disposing of inconvenient or un-attractive women is just human nature, common in many cultures.


An estranged husband doesn't even need a document to kill his wife. His word ALONE can decide her fate. Even if everyone else in her family says he's full of shit, he can snuff her out.

Women had better be on their best behavior now. Because their over-bearing husbands can:


1. Beat, or drug, or poison them into a coma, or other helpless state (hypothetically).

1b. Dictate treatment terms in order to cover up the crime.


2. Have a mistress and kids on the side while she languishes.


3. Exploit her condition in court to extract a large monetary settlement.

4. Then spit on her religious beliefs by starving her to death.

5. Then further hide his crimes by cremating the body.


Clearly, Terri deserves all this, because of the undue burden she has placed on her husband, and the taxpayers.

(That money could be spent feeding hungry Islamic fundamentalists around the globe , making them not hate us. Tsiankun)

Regardless of other issues, as one can see on T.V., she is a truly pathetic site.

(Although more pathetic on CNN, then on Fox news,. You can tell if the network wants to kill her by the type of footage they show of her. If they show her smiling ,watching the balloon, then they want her to live. If they just show the tube sticking out of her belly, they want to put her down.)


In our enlightened, diverse nation, we should celebrate this as an Honor, or mercy killing.


Her pathetic condition brings shame to Michael's new family, so snuffing her life would be the proper thing to do.


After all, Michael's opinion, Michael's desire, and Michael's life, are far more important than Terri's.

-n

[FlexThis]

Rather than start a new thread on a subject so similar, I'd like to present my case below and look forward to any and all responses on the subject.


QUALITY OF LIFE

While I have been a huge proponent of Terri Shiavo's Right to Live, plenty of people (majority actually of like 65%) have questioned her quality of life as a PVS person.

At first this did not really trigger any kind of emotion from me. I guess it is often too easy for me to dismiss the issue as discrimination against the disabled, more than seeing any kind of personal quality of life issue.

If you have read any of my blog you already know how desparately my niece has been fighting a lung illness that has Dr.s baffled. Her immune system attacked and literally destroyed her own lungs. She has sustained a month long medically induced coma, 2 lung biopsies (sp?), multiple ventilator and oscillator treatments, a tracheotomy, staff infection removed from her back, and now a potentially terminal setback.

Since being non-diagnosed with a mystery lung illness, my niece (13 years old) was told that her lungs could not be repaired and that the tissue had stiffened as if she was a 40 year old smoker. They have never seen this before EVER. She was told that in order to lead any kind of healthy life she would need to build up her strength, lower her CO2 levels, and receive a lung transplant.

The lung transplant would not even cure the problem, but actually extend her life so they could run more tests and see if her body chooses to attack the new lungs.

All of this is experimental at this point, and they know with a 10% accuracy what the theory behind all of this is. But since they have never seen a system attack itself like this before, she is more or less a lab rat for the Dr.s to run their tests.

Eventually she was strong enough to be transported back to her home, still on a ventilator so she could build up her strength. She became irriated with the idea of having a tube in her throat and even removed it herself but replaced it after 8 seconds without air. So you can see that her quality of life was already pretty shitty.

While at home tragedy struck. My niece has whats known as a "bled" on her lung. We all have these. They are like air sacs that can hold a tremendous amount of air. From time to time and in patients that have lung problems, often these sacs fill with air and pressure needs to be released. The procedure requires a chest tube to remove the air from the bled. If the bled becomes too large it can rupture causing severe lung damage.

My niece was complaining about her breathing and even with the ventilator was having trouble getting air. My sister called an ambulance which took its sweet ass time getting to her and even got stuck in traffic on the way to the hospital. The EMT are not trained to deal with her specific case and were only doing their job, but would not take her to the hospital she needed, but rather took her to the nearest hospital. My sister did not agree with this action at all and requested that the proper hopital send air support to get my niece. The copter arrived and air lifted her to the hospital with specialists standing by to admit her.

2 minutes before the helicopter arrived, my nieces bled exploded and her lung collapsed. Minutes later so too did the other lung as did her heart. My niece arrived at the hospital DOA.

Dr.s spent 25 minutes "Playing God" as my sister put it and brought her back from the dead. She immediate threw up and went into a coma.

And there she lays. Dr.s no longer concerned with her lungs at this point. Their biggest and most real concern is that my niece has brain damage.

Frightening enough, her brain stem has kicked in and she is looking around and responding to sounds with no consciousness AT ALL. VERY VERY VERY much like Terri Shiavo. Dr.s say their is no way to test her brain for damage and all the EKGs, CAT scans, and MRIs in the world cannot reveal the extent of oxygen depleted brain damage.

So basically my sister now has a choice to make. My niece watched the Terri Shiavo case everyday and expressed her thoughts about how wrong it was to starve her and that she should be allowed to live even with PVS.

Little did she know she was making her own life vs. death plea. Indeed my niece specifically said she wishes to live in that case.

This has left us all very sad and emotionally torn to bits. Even if my niece were to have partial use of her brain, see still has a debilitating lung condition that can never be repaired without a transplant and even then they don't know if that will even cure her immune system from attacking the new set.

There is quite the twist to my story versus Terri's. In my nieces case she has expressed her wish to live. Although sadly living in her case would mean multiple lung surgeries to cure an ailment of a brain damaged 13 year old child.

My sister is beside herself with grief and deep down wishes they had let her die rather than damaging her brain to bring her back.

Knowing all the facts - What would you do in this situation?

Thanks,

[delakong]

Your niece wants to live. She is still just a child and might not understand the complexity that her life will have to go through (expecially if there's brain damage), but she has her right to a choice. She made a choice, respect her choice.

Best wishes to her.

[FlexThis]

That would be the easy answer, but unfortunately the medical bills for the lung thing alone have sky rocketed. My sister works at a Wendy's restaraunt and really can't afford the care she is receiving now. Honestly I don't know how she has paid for anything up until this point. The whole family has given her money to help raise her other 2 kids.

At some point the insurance runs out.

Let me also point out that my niece has a debilitating lung condition. Her only means for breathing is a machine. A machine that is slowly killer her anyway. She was only suppose to be on the machine for 4 months. It is going on a year now. She is severely under weight and her CO2 levels are dangerously high. If the lung issue were the only one, she would still be in a world of hurt and potentially die due to CO2 poisoning.

The brain damage issue only compounds her illness that much more. She is a helpless deteriorating mess of tubes at this point. My father says she looks around as if she is awake, but sadly it is only reflexes and it kills them to see her in this condition, so helpless.

This goes beyond a mere feeding tube to keep her alive. She would need a lung transplant just to be a healthy Vegetable. And without the means to better herself, gain weight, build up her immunities, a lung transplant is out of the question.

We fear that she is sick and dying and no matter how much she wants to live, he poor little body simply cannot support itself.

A cold would kill my niece. She can't even cough you know??? She has this trach in her throat.

I respect her wishes, but damn how much more of this can my sister take???

[delakong]

Damn man........my condolences to you and your family, exspecially your sister. That's an extremely hard decision that nobody should have to go through. My heart goes out to y'all.

[FlexThis]

Thanks,

I just found out about the brain damage on Tuesday night. I am still in shock.

It's like watching TV and then having the TV become your life. So surreal and at the same time total reality.

My sister has been sitting in that room with her ever since this started a little under a year ago. For a month straight she was in a coma to help her breath. Her own brain (how ironic) was interfering with the ventilator and making her CO2 levels go way up to beyond unhealthy levels. While awake my niece looked like a beet (all red in the face from the CO2 poisoning her). There were even points were she had to be hooked to a blood purifying machine to help rid her blood of CO2. This only made her bleed internally.

Everything they have tried has worsened her condition. Almost a year later they still don't know what is wrong with her.

The illness came, saw, and is now taking away without any explanation.

It truly sucks not to know. At least Terri's husband knew she had an eatting disorder, we have no clue what is wrong with my niece.

Thanks again for the support. It helps to talk about things like this, kinda like therapy.

[FlexThis]

Correction

Timbre is BRAIN DEAD!!!!

My niece died 2 days ago according to the Doctors. My sister called me with the news and I am devastated. Pulling the plug is no longer a question it is a given.

My sister wanted to know for sure before she made up her mind. So they ran an EKG once again and it came up flat. Doctors have told her that her lungs are shot, her brain is gone, and her kidneys have failed. Basically they say they are supporting a heart and that's it. Even her heart has problems due to all the drugs and stress and will not be salvagable for another child.

Please pray for my family during this difficult time.

~peace

[FlexThis]

Timbre will be laid to rest tomorrow afternoon in Salisbury, NC. My sister, her husband, and their oldest son (Timbre's brother age 15) watched as the nurse turned off all the machines and removed all the tubes attached to my niece.

She died a peaceful death taking her last breath less than a minute after being removed from all life support.

The decision to terminate life support was ultimately made by my sister with the advice of Dr.s treating Timbre.

Her wish did not go fulfilled unfortunately. Given her delicate state, even with life support, she would have still passed away, as her kidneys and liver had already begun to fail and her eyes began to seep blood.

All of which is normal in the death process.

I'm writing all of this to help those who felt compelled by the recent Terri Shiavo case. And maybe help shed some light on the dying process.

~peace

[FlexThis]

Timbre has been laid to rest and the funeral services have concluded. Take away from this story what you will.

No more long faces - It's time to move forward, put the past behind, and live for another day.

Thank you to all those who supported me and my family during this difficult time.

That said - let's get back to shred!!!

Thanks again,