If taking steroids would make you better at footbag...

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 14 Apr 2005 18:44

Whenever I hit a new combo, new move, or do anything generally cool in footbag, I get a rush for a couple reasons. Part of the rush comes directly from hitting the move. It just feels cool to hit mobius/whatever. But another part of my satisfaction comes from the fact that I was able to accomplish this goal through hard work.

Assuming there were steroids which would make you play better, would you take them? For now, let`s leave tournaments out of this. If there were a pill you could take which would make you play better, but your progress were due to the pill, but not yourself, would you take it? Let`s also assume there are no negative health risks or drawbacks to taking this pill. What would you do?

SlashC · Post by **SlashC** » 14 Apr 2005 19:17

I voted no to sterile-roids

I've always considered taking performance enhancing steroids for improvement to be a serious form of cheating (both to themselves and to others). It gives an unfair advantage to whoever can afford to use them and lessons the satisfaction of playing. Also I think that this "magic" pill with no side effects is a bit idealistic. I've never heard of a pill other than a placebo that doesn't have at least some kind of possible negative side effect.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 14 Apr 2005 19:28

I would definitely take it. I want smaller testicles anyway - and 'roid rage is fun.

No, seriously, I know every post i make i sound more and more morally bankrupt, but if there was a 'better at footbag pill' i'd take it.

There's already a 'more relaxed and creative' pill - it's called ganja. I don't think that art i create while high is any less 'authentic' - why should a performance enhancing drug be any different.

Steroids aren't a magic pill that make you stronger - they alter your body chemistry so that your body makes itself stronger. If i had a computer chip implanted in my brain that allowed me to turn off my myostatin (the protein that prevents muscle growth) would that be cheating? I'm not "adding" anything to my body, I'm turning off the balance that keeps my muscles in check.

I don't think this is as easy as "steroids are cheating" - as we progress biologically and chemically away from what is considered naturally human, we have to begin to incorporate radically altered physical states into our worldview.

jon · Post by **jon** » 14 Apr 2005 20:13

anabolic steroids = no i would not, they are bad for you
if there was a pill that had no negative effects then yes I would
I would also take such a pill to make me smarter, better looking, live longer, be healthier, ect
Maybe these magic pills wouldnt make me any happier and if they were there to be used everyone would probably use them so I wouldnt instantly be better than everyone else but I would like to be the best possible Jon I could be. So if that means hard work, determination, a magic pill, then I will do it.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 14 Apr 2005 20:42

"That which is achieved too easily is esteemed but lightly"

I think that what the ever sagacious C-Fan is getting at is not the good or bad of steroids or drugs, but rather "if being great at footbag were really easy, would it still feel cool to be great at footbag?"

I'd have to say that, leaving the steroids question aside for a moment, a big part of the thrill of the game would evaporate suddenly if you got better without having had to work hard for it. Like how its really not very fun to win a game against somebody who is clearly no match for you (hey, qphox, how did you feel about that game of scrabble?). I guess I probably wouldn't enjoy footbag if it were too easy. On the other hand, I'm getting quite sick of it now because its too hard. Damn this game!

And leaving aside the question of how satisfying footbag would be if it were too easy, I think I'd have to vote against taking an Awesome-At-Footbag pill. While I really liked Jared's analogy of his artistic aids (that was a good analogy, man. Just for that I'm now looking forward to meeting you in Rochester), I also like for people to recognize that my skills were the result of hard work. I'd hate for anybody to watch me and say "I could do that if I were simply to take the same pills that he took." I'd prefer to be able to say back to them "This is the result of years of hard work and dedication! Go back to watching your lame-ass t.v. shows, couch potato, go back to hanging out at the bar 'cause you don't have any of a number of the things that it takes to combine sport with art and do something interesting and unconventional." Oops, I didn't mean to start ranting.

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 14 Apr 2005 21:38

I would take anything that has no bad side effects and makes me play footbag better.

Why? Because playing great footbag is even more fun than playing good footbag.

I would take the pill for the same reasons I'm taking pills now to help heal my knee and multivitamins to give me extra nutrition. It's not cheating it's just using every resource available to you. It's great to live in this modern age where we actually think we know what to eat and what not to eat.(Even to the point of which drugs for which people.)

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 14 Apr 2005 22:12

This question is more of a thought experiment than anything else, as Jon noted. If my question were simply: "if steroids made you play footbag better, would you use them?", that would be complicated by lots of factors: illegality, side effects of steroids, etc.

The main question I was driving at, was: "if there was a way to get good at footbag, which removed the need to invest time and energy, would you take it?"

Personally, I wouldn`t do steroids for several reasons. Violent mood swings? Please, I already have trouble keeping my mental game sometimes as is. I also don`t like the possibility of death, or the nasty sexual side effects.

But beyond these practical reasons, there is the main moral dilemna I wanted to discuss: would I be able to enjoy any tricks I hit on steroids? Yeah, I may be able to hit nemesis... but only because of pills. If I put in the time to learn and hit nemesis without drugs, wouldn`t I feel better? But how much better?

Of course, there doesn`t exist a steroid which makes you better at footbag, and has no side-effects. But assuming that there were one, would you use it? If somebody hit nemesis swirl, but they had used steroids, would it not count? Would it count but be less legit? Being able to play fearless for 20+ contacts must be fun... would it be somehow less fun to do, just because you used steroids? I wonder... sort of like in some videogames, where you can use a God code. Yeah, its definitely more rewarding (and maybe more fun) to beat the game without cheating. But its still lots of fun to use the cheat codes and do things you normally couldn`t.

More thoughts, more discussion please.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 14 Apr 2005 22:19

Where are people getting this 'good at footbag' pill ? Is this some new Japanese technology ?

I'm wondering why someone would ask that question unless they had a reason to struggle with that delima.

Can we keep this a secret from new players, and how much is a months supply ?

I'm so excited, I'm going to be good at footbag !!!

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 14 Apr 2005 23:49

Damn.

I just wrote a lengthy post here, and after C-Fan pointed out that after
quoting Tsiangkun I wrote basically the same as him, I edited my original
post instead of making a new one, therefor erasing my original post.
Seems I'm really half-awake.

What I said was, if being good at footbag is something that you can
achieve without doing anything for it, you might lose interest faster.

Imagine hitting a hard tripless combo for the first time after years
of hard training. It's rewarding moments like this that we like footbag
so much.

Imagine you just take the pill and hit it - I guess the fun wouldn't be
half as great, because it wouldn't be that big of a deal anymore to hit
it.

I think long-term motivation stems from long-time dedication. Being
good in footbag is fun because you've invested much time and hard work
to get good. Cause and effect - work and reward.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 15 Apr 2005 00:51

ebo wrote:
Tsiangkun wrote:Yeah, its definitely more rewarding (and maybe more fun) to beat the game without cheating. But its still lots of fun to use the cheat codes and do things you normally couldn`t.
.

Omen · Post by **Omen** » 15 Apr 2005 01:38

I agree with Ken, I would want to get better and play knowing its through my own hard work.

And coming from me, my level of skill, thats a lot.

I would like to take the pills and get better fast, give me more energy and strength and what not. But in the end, I know it wouldn't have been me and if that was the case I don't think I would want to play at all there after, I believe the whole point of footbag is self advancment and the gradification you get, with steroids it wouldn't be there.

You might even end up like Timmy did, beating his girl friend and mom just to win the special olympics... all because of stoids.

Omen · Post by **Omen** » 15 Apr 2005 01:40

and I agree with Ebo!

peanutbuterboy · Post by **peanutbuterboy** » 15 Apr 2005 03:02

Drugs are bad Mkay......

I dont need them. Actually I dont need the pimples the crazy beast hair, the man boobs.....(they list goes on)

Its not worth it to me. Now the magic footbag pill with no side affects, sure why not. There are no side effects. With roids it is to dangerous..

Uranos · Post by **Uranos** » 15 Apr 2005 03:33

I voted NO to steroids.

Not only is it cheating, but say i hit...PS Whirl from taking steroids and i never evn hit a whirl before. How would i feel? I would probably say to myself "hey jeezs i didnt even have to school my whirls and i can hit this..."

But if i hit PS whirl whithout taking this, i would know that i hit it because of schooling my whirls, pdx whirls really hard, and i would have a greater sense of accomplishment.

To me, not just hitting difficult tricks and all is playing "great footbag" but to actually enjoy it and hit new tricks from schooling hard is what i like.

jon · Post by **jon** » 15 Apr 2005 05:42

Not sure if its 100% accurate, but I believe that taking small amounts of anabolic steroids and other such things can be done with little negative side affects. Hell steroids themselves serve many useful legitimate medical purposes. The problem with steroids is that they are over used and abused by most althletes looking for the largest possible edge. Under close medical supervision most people can benifit from from steroids with little ill effects.

More on topic here is another reason why I would take such a magic pill:
Take the guitar as an example.
I bought a guitar off my friend in the summer. I suck at guitar. I dont practice much at the moment because its not that much fun to play lame easier songs and not be able to play longer cooler songs. Sure if I practiced hard (this summer :p) and stuck with it I would eventually be able to play anything I wanted and it would feel great because I earned it. But if I could take a pill to make me instantly better, or at least start off at high level I think I might be playing more. Its more fun just to be able to sit down and play a sweet song then to sit down and play the typical beginner stuff. The added skill might also encourage me to practice more and therefore improve past what the magic pill allowed me to do.

back to footbag: I believe a lot of new players get intimated when they walk up to a circle and cant even do the most basic of tricks. We lose lots of players this way. If there was a pill a new player could take that would let them learn clippers/toe delays/single dexs in one day then I think they might start to see how cool freestyle is and stick with it longer instead of becoming discouraged.

hope that made sense

delakong · Post by **delakong** » 15 Apr 2005 05:57

I voted unsure.

It's easy to say you wouldn't right now, knowing this pill doesn't exist, but if I had some in my hand and asked if you wanted one and told you all the glorious things you'd be able to do, I'm sure most people would take one.

My Example:

When I first started "hacking" it took me months to learn how to stall. Remember, I (and I'm sure alot of you) was just kicking a knit bag filled with plastic beads around. After all that hard work to learn stalls with this big hack, I got the crazy idea to look up "hacky sack" and what did I find? Footbag.org. Now I read the forums and everybody's talking about these wonderful "sandbags" that are so easy to learn stalls with. Oh yeah, don't forget Lavers, the footbag player's shoe. What, you can modify this glorious shoe to help your game even more!?!?!?

I don't think I have to go on.

ebo · Post by **ebo** » 15 Apr 2005 06:33

jon wrote:More on topic here is another reason why I would take such a magic pill:
Take the guitar as an example.

But if I could take a pill to make me instantly better, or at least start off at high level I think I might be playing more. Its more fun just to be able to sit down and play a sweet song then to sit down and play the typical beginner stuff

I tend to disagree. With the guitar it's just the same as with footbag -
either you're really passionate towards it - and then you will school
your ass off during any free time you have - or you'll lose interest
in the long run . I play guitar myself, and next to footbag it's my
absolute passion. When I started out, I'd sit in front of the guitar
for 8 hours until my fingers would literally bleed. It was just the right
thing for me.

I think if your interest isn't sparked in the first place, you'll lose interest
sooner or later, whether with magic pill or without.

Sorry to go a bit offtopic here, but then again, it's a good example for
the topic.

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 15 Apr 2005 08:59

I think you guys are overestimating what this pill could do. Even as a hypothetical, it would still have to operate under logical premises. One could not hit ps whirl from a pill without doing whirl first, because they would not know where to put their foot, how to balance the landing, how to crank the foot to the ground at the end, etc. Maybe they could progress from whirl to ps whirl in the same day, but thats just testing the limits of the hypothetical and not necessary for the discussion. (maybe if it worked like learning in the Matrix...)

Secondly, I'd like to address that there is always someone who's going to say your cheating already. "I could do it if I had the shoes" "That hack catches itself, thats not hard" "You have to much free time, I could do it too if I PRACTICED, I just do it for fun" ("what the heck do you think I do it for..") I've heard all of these and more, so its really a personal thing rather than what others think. As for nemesis swirl...it seems very likely to me the Jere Linnenin (sp? sorry) could hit this faster than others cause his shoes are lighter than ours (most of us). Doesn't mean he's cheating, and it doesn't devalue the trick.

Now, my initial reaction to Ken's post was since my muscles are really having trouble adjusting to doing 20+ contact shuffle semi tripless runs every time, I'd take them for a week and play really hard during it and catch up to the level I play at in my head...some mix of Lon, Jorden, Penske, Pinkus, and Vasek...then I could work on the combos I feel are cool rather than just what I'm ready for (and it seems with a pill I could catch up really quick, even if it was just muscular help with no side affects).

But here's what I realized: There is always an abuser. Someone who is rich, with tons of free time and is going to overdo whatever they have thats good. With a few of these wanting to be Vasek, the whole sport will be pushed to a level where you can't be good without the pill, and that is not good at all. You didn't say the pills were free Ken (and I don't see how they could be) so that takes footbag into the hands of those who take the most. If the whole world was, I might do it, but I think it would devalue the sport from the outside point of view and people who don't play would no longer have any respect for us...and there goes the olympic idea.

Now, if these were my little secret...I think I would use them like energy drinks. I used to drink them every week before the session, but since studying the health aspects and reorienting my life to be as healthy as possible, I have limited them to roughly 1 a month before a speciic session where I know I'll need it, or for tournaments. I would just use it as a boost every once in a while to make sure I continue to progress, not as the source of my progress. I don't think they'd be good all the time.

Now, one last note to consider in this discussion: What if we found out that Ryan, Lon, Vasek, and Jorden had all been using something like this from the start? Some shamanistic formula Peter Irish and Rippin slowly developed throughout the 90's that improved them as they improved the sport that they gave a perfect form of to those with the greatest potential. Would we still respect our idols/friends? What if it was something that we all already had access to but overlooked, like Vitamin F, found only in (blank) food most people only eat sometimes, like Jello or something silly like that, or even something like Evan Lovely's Yerbe Mate? (a south american super tea he introduced to us at css6) Would we jump to take it, or would we say, pshhh, it was all fake, screw this sport...

Thanks for posting this Philosophical question Ken. Philosophy majors love to respond to those...plus its about footbag so woohoo!

Sorry I typed so much though.

Peace guys,
Bum

Sporatical_Distractions · Post by **Sporatical_Distractions** » 15 Apr 2005 10:34

I voted no. Which feels better? Hitting a challenging move first tr? or spending weeks and/or months trying to get a move and finally getting?I'll go with the latter. The main reason I play footbag is to challenge myself. Nothing feels better than accomplishing something that you have been working on for great lengths of time. If I could take a pill and suddenly do stepping pdx dlo>fusion>nemesis>rpt, I wouldn't do it.

edited for bad punctuation.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 15 Apr 2005 10:48

that was a good analogy, man

thanks!

and I think i'm going to take it a little farther since this was brought up:

When I started out, I'd sit in front of the guitar for 8 hours until my fingers would literally bleed.

Not everybody has this kind of dedication. I sure as shit don't. I play guitar and footbag too, but neither of them are all encompasing passions for me. I've been playing guitar for about four years now, and I'm only just starting to feel comfortable doing walkdowns/ups, riffing on blues scales and playing rock riffs/songs.

Same with footbag - I'm always the first one to leave the session, 'cause I like it, but not enough to push myself till i can't move my legs anymore, which is what you really need to do to improve dramatically. I could probably be a lot better than I am if I had the drive - but I don't.

If I could do a drug that in small doses improved the strength of my legs, and built my muscles faster, I would probably enjoy the sport more and get better at a much faster rate. I'd never be Vasek, even with the drugs, but I'd plateau at a higher, more fun to play level.

But, it's like what Bum said, there's always an abuser who wants to be the best and will do anything to get there. I can't really judge them, but I'm not sure I'd feel as comfortable with them being the top player in the sport. If they got there by abusing their health in a dangerous way - a way that other players didn't feel comfortable pursuing, there'd be some friction.

What about this: is it legal to use a sticky footbag in competition? Or Velcro sided shoes with a fuzzy footbag? I don't think there are any 'rules' against this, but instictively we'd all feel wierd about it.

some people on this forum don't think that barefoot tricks count, so how could they reconcile steroid use!

I'm just sorta thinking outloud on this one. thanks for starting a smart, interesting thread ken!

modified

If taking steroids would make you better at footbag...

...would you take them?

If taking steroids would make you better at footbag...