Tolerance goes 360

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 09:07

OK,

So I may have gone overboard slamming on people in the philosophy thread. Richard I am sorry for PMing you with hate speech. And I apologize to anyone else offended by my rant.

That said, I will promise to be more tolerant to those with whom I have a strong opposite opinion or confliction. I usually try to curb my emotions, but the recent philosophy thread hit a little too close to home recently.

If you don't know I lost my niece recently and am still very upset by this. I would like to think that she is now in God's care, and I may have gotten too heated on the subject of God so close to my loss.

For that I apologize.

About the gay thing. I am straight, and have no qualms with those of the homo lifestyle. I just ask that you respect the fact that straight people are the majority of people in the world and that although discrimination should be avoided in all cases, I find it a bit overbearing to have words like "homophobic" thrown around so loosly. Keep in mind that being straight and disliking sodomy is a legitimate and not at all discriminatory behavior. It is actually accepted as normal and sodomy is illegal in some states across America.

While I realize that this forum spans around the world, this does not make it valid to accuse someone straight of being "homophobic" simply because they have issues with sodomy or the recent gay marriage debate.

Being straight is as normal as being alive. Please don't downgrade the idea that being straight is not ok, or that straight people should tolerate crimes against nature like sodomy.

I will tolerate your personal preferences, just please don't make them an issue in footbag. This is a footbag forum, it's suppose to be fun.

I'll keep it fun, if we can all play together nicely without bringing up personal sexual preferences.

~Sincerely

mc · Post by mc » 25 Apr 2005 10:20

---man oh man...

"About the gay thing. I am straight, and have no qualms with those of the homo lifestyle. I just ask that you respect the fact that straight people are the majority of people in the world and that although discrimination should be avoided in all cases, I find it a bit overbearing to have words like "homophobic" thrown around so loosly. Keep in mind that being straight and disliking sodomy is a legitimate and not at all discriminatory behavior. It is actually accepted as normal and sodomy is illegal in some states across America."

---I doubt you've been accused of being straight and disliking something. It's probably more along the lines of you taking that internal state of being and making it external for the rest of us to deal with. Not all of us accept "accepted" as our standard of being, and not all of us (including you, D) accept our American system of laws as the basis for our own feelings, preferences, and actions.

---If we accept those kind of reasons as valid, it leaves your actions way too excused for my comfort, and leaves them way too open to repetition. "I just got a little flustered, but what I said was valid"...

buuuuuuuuuuull....

I saw a shirt at the goodwill the other day that said, "I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay in public"... I think the point of that shirt is applicable here...

"Being straight is as normal as being alive. Please don't downgrade the idea that being straight is not ok [double negative?], or that straight people should tolerate crimes against nature like sodomy."

---I really don't feel that it's my, or anyone else's responsibility to live up to your perception of normal, especially when you slip little definitions like "crimes against nature" into your rulebook. whatever your dogma is, that's your deal. I also don't feel it's my responsibility to limit my conversation to what lies within "comfortable" for your dogma.

"I will tolerate your personal preferences, just please don't make them an issue in footbag. This is a footbag forum, it's suppose to be fun.

I'll keep it fun, if we can all play together nicely without bringing up personal sexual preferences. "

---Sorry homes. Discussion forum. We've got our opinions, and just like we have to deal with yours, you have to deal with ours. "if you guys talk about topic X, I'm liable to flip out, so please just don't talk about it."

once again, buuuuuuull.

your impositional opinion is more of a crime against nature than sodomy.

("crime against nature"...

)

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 10:52

How many people have been locked away for sodomy? How many people are currently on trial for sodomy?

I don't have to accept sodomy. Nor tolerate it thrust in my face.

Women do not have to tolerate rape. Why should I have to tolerate sodomy?

I don't.

That is no bull. That is the law.

Not all of us accept "accepted" as our standard of being, and not all of us (including you, D) accept our American system of laws as the basis for our own feelings, preferences, and actions.

You are correct, I indeed look to God for answers concerning sodomy. Lucky for me the US government has labeled it a crime. Maybe you can write your councilman a letter requesting sodomy laws be changed to allow a legal pasttime for gays.

Until then, don't violate my rights by thrusting a lifestyle choice on footbag. If it becomes a predominant gay sport, then I'll leave it be and focus on volleyball.

Until then, respect the fact that I am here, I am not queer, GET USE TO IT!!!

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 25 Apr 2005 11:04

I saw a shirt at the goodwill the other day that said, "I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay in public"...

HOOOOOLLYYYYYYY CRAAAAAPPP MATT!!!!! You have to go back and get that shirt! I will pay you SOOO much for that shirt when i come to grass!!!

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 25 Apr 2005 11:19

FlexThis wrote: About the gay thing. I am straight, and have no qualms with those of the homo lifestyle. I just ask that you respect the fact that straight people are the majority of people in the world and that although discrimination should be avoided in all cases, I find it a bit overbearing to have words like "homophobic" thrown around so loosly. Keep in mind that being straight and disliking sodomy is a legitimate and not at all discriminatory behavior. It is actually accepted as normal and sodomy is illegal in some states across America.

Okay, you don’t like the word “homophobic,” it’s an ugly word, that’s understandable. How about:

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. (dictionary.com)

Don’t like the way that sounds? It’s an ugly word too, isn’t it? It’s an ugly way to be as a human being.

FlexThis wrote:Please don't downgrade the idea that being straight is not ok, or that straight people should tolerate crimes against nature like sodomy.

FlexThis wrote: That said, I will promise to be more tolerant to those with whom I have a strong opposite opinion or confliction.

Being "tolerant" of someone's life and beliefs is all well and good, but does it really make a difference if you're still saying that THEY are a crime against nature?

Matt Cross wrote:
FlexThis wrote: Being straight is as normal as being alive. Please don't downgrade the idea that being straight is not ok, or that straight people should tolerate crimes against nature like sodomy.

---your impositional opinion is more of a crime against nature than sodomy.

I think that was more inflammatory than was necessary, but other than that statement, I agree with what Matt said, and am glad that it was said.

It’s good that you made an effort to step back and let the situation go, and apologize to the people who you owed apologies. But I’m curious, if you would be willing to just step back and look at the thread and all of the comments that were made, and every time you see “gay” (and all of the derogatory versions of it) just insert “black” (and all of the derogatory versions of it.) Would that seem okay to you? I’m not asking you to respond, but trying to explain to you why people are getting so upset, and are even still upset with what you said in this post here.

FlexThis wrote: If you don't know I lost my niece recently and am still very upset by this. I would like to think that she is now in God's care, and I may have gotten too heated on the subject of God so close to my loss.

I don’t think anyone on this forum knows exactly what you’re going through. People have different experiences and losses in their lives. And I'm sure everyone feels very bad for your loss, and wishes well for your family in these difficult times. But using your loss to attack gay people and atheists is not okay. If I don’t believe in God, that doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist. That just means I don’t believe He exists. And, saying someone who believes in God is an idiot for it is as wrong as saying that someone who doesn’t believe in God is an idiot for it. But it's offensive and unreasonable to do either way.

Edit: typo.
_______________
Emily Kulczyk

“I am going to concentrate on what's important in life. I'm going to strive everyday to be a kind and generous and loving person. I'm going to keep death right here, so that anytime I even think about getting angry at you or anybody else, I'll see death and I'll remember.” --Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 25 Apr 2005 11:19

Damon, you my friend, are an idiot. I happen to have a bible beside my bed, and let me quote you a couple things from it.

Now, I didn't get involved in the philosophy debate because I felt it was below me (way way way below me, once you started flipping your lid). But I've read the bible - probably a hell of a lot more than you have, not because I'm religious (i'm definitely not) but because it's a powerful cultural artifact that influences many peoples worldviews.

Unfortnately, it doesn't seem to have influenced yours.

I indeed look to God for answers concerning sodomy.

Apparently what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home (or bath house, or park - whatever) is equivalent to you to a man forcing himself on a woman. That's some morality you've got there.

Anyway, I'm sidetracking - here a couple of the 513 commandments you're probably going to hell for:

Have you written the ten commandments on your door lately? (deuteronomy 8:16) Didn't think so. Hellfire for you biatch!

Have you worn garments of diverse sorts? Such as wools and linens together? That's Deuteronomy 22:11. You're going to hell!

Have you given burnt offerings of the flesh and blood at the alter of the lord lately? that's deuteronomy 12:28, but i'm sure you knew that, because you don't want to go to hell.

Oh wait, Damon - You don't masturbate do you? Cause that's a BIG no-no.

Care to guess how many times they mention masturbation in the bible compared to faggotry? You don't want to know - it'll probably make you go blind (or your palms hairy - I can't remember...)

Anyway, all I'm saying is WWJD, right? I think the answer is "love thy neighbour as thyself". But maybe it was "hate fags". I haven't read that far yet...

mc · Post by mc » 25 Apr 2005 11:24

"Until then, don't violate my rights by thrusting a lifestyle choice on footbag."

same to you, my brother.

Footbag isn't a gay or straight sport. It's a sport for people.

"I don't have to accept sodomy. Nor tolerate it thrust in my face."

aaaaaaactually, you do. it seems your only recourse so far his been to flip out and get everyone saying "what's that guy's problem".

Again.

"Women do not have to tolerate rape. Why should I have to tolerate sodomy?"

remember that statement about, "I don't mind straight people, as long as they act gay in public"? that's called reducto ad absurdum, when you take the logic of a situation and apply it to a different situation to show how flawed or absurd it is. here's another one of those...

"Women do not have to tolerate rape. Why should I have to tolerate people eating pizza?"

It's none of your damn business whether I eat pizza or not, and it's ridiculous to suggest that because your dogma says I can't pizza, that you should be able to make some kind of connection between a violent, non-consensual, thoughtless imposition of yourself and your being upon another, and a consensual act that doesn't harm anyone uninvolved just because they're both illegal *for entirely different reasons*.

The law does not validate your dogma or opinions. And don't hide behind more bullshit like that, man. you don't give a damn about the reality of the law, or how it fits into your life. You're just grabbing the most convenient reasoning for your opinion that you can find.

You don't have to do shit, man. Keep acting like you've been, go ahead. You're painting a picture of yourself for the rest of us to see, that's all.

edit: Emily... rrrrrrrrrrg.....

the key word there is IMPOSITIONAL, not opinion. I don't care that he's got an opinion. I care that he thinks his opinion has the right to step on the toes of mine because of his accepted dogma / bureaucracy.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 25 Apr 2005 11:36

Alright. This topic is now in the discussion section because that's where it really should be. My opinions aside on the matter, I'm giving you all fair warning not to let this degrade into personal assaults on intelligence, persuasion, etc.... While this is in the Discussion section which has lower standards for moderation I will not allow you all to turn Modified into a personal flamefest. I have already lost 2 members over the weekend due to that sort of posting and I don't want to lose more because of people's inability to argue the actual point without insulting the hell out of someone.

Stick to the topic without killing eachother please.

mc · Post by mc » 25 Apr 2005 11:44

[quote="Matt Cross"]"Until then, don't violate my rights by thrusting a lifestyle choice on footbag."

same to you, my brother.

Footbag isn't a gay or straight sport. It's a sport for people.

"I don't have to accept sodomy. Nor tolerate it thrust in my face."

aaaaaaactually, you do. it seems your only recourse so far his been to flip out and get everyone saying "what's that guy's problem".

Again.

"Women do not have to tolerate rape. Why should I have to tolerate sodomy?"

remember that statement about, "I don't mind straight people, as long as they act gay in public"? that's called reducto ad absurdum, when you take the logic of a situation and apply it to a different situation to show how flawed or absurd it is. here's another one of those...

"Women do not have to tolerate rape. Why should I have to tolerate people eating pizza?"

It's none of your damn business whether I eat pizza or not, and it's ridiculous to suggest that because your dogma says I can't eat a pizza, that you should be able to make some kind of connection between a violent, non-consensual, thoughtless imposition of yourself and your being upon another, and a consensual act that doesn't harm anyone uninvolved just because they're both illegal *for entirely different reasons*.

The law does not validate your dogma or opinions. And don't hide behind more bullshit like that, man. you don't give a damn about the reality of the law, or how it fits into your life. You're just grabbing the most convenient reasoning for your opinion that you can find.

You don't have to do shit, man. Keep acting like you've been, go ahead. You're painting a picture of yourself for the rest of us to see, that's all.

edit: Emily... rrrrrrrrrrg.....

the key word there is IMPOSITIONAL, not opinion. I don't care that he's got an opinion. I care that he thinks his opinion has the right to step on the toes of mine because of his accepted dogma / bureaucracy.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 12:15

Being Gay and being Black have nothing to do with each other.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Secondly, blacks have done nothing to warrant my attacks. That connection was unwarranted.

And Matt, eatting pizza and fucking someone up the ass, also have no connection.

And for the Bible beaters - I NEVER SAID I WAS DIE-HARD CHRISTIAN.

So please stop quoting the bible.

I may indeed be on a path to hell, but it won't be for sodomy.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 25 Apr 2005 12:43

Being Gay and being Black have nothing to do with each other.

Obviously you didn't get the point emily was trying to make: Both gays and blacks were born being gay/black. Thus you are hating them (gays I mean, I don't know how you feel about black people) for something that they didn't choose, but for something that they are.

I NEVER SAID I WAS DIE-HARD CHRISTIAN.

So please stop quoting the bible.

Actually, you made it very clear in the philosophy thread that your issue with homosexuality was that it 'went against god', or some such nonsense. If i'm not allowed to use a religious argument about why you should tolerate homosexuality, you aren't allowed to use why for why you shouldn't.

Which pretty much shuts down this argument right here, I think (although I've been wrong about these things before).

In any case, if you're not a die hard christian, then your anti-gay stance must be simply one of personal revulsion. That's okay, I understand that. I hate fat people - it's just how i feel. I find them repulsive, and I don't think that they should be able to wave all that fat in my face all the time. they should just keep that stuff in the bedroom where it belongs.

delakong · Post by **delakong** » 25 Apr 2005 12:45

Blow jobs are illegal in NC and so is any other position ather than the missionary...you should know that Damon, you're from here. I bet you've commited more than your share of crimes against nature while you grew up here (you did grow up here, right?). I'm reporting you to the SBI (edited out inflammatory insult)!!! You're goin down!

On a side note...it is NOT illegal for women to walk around topless in NC because indecent exposure only involves sexual organs. It is also quite legal to walk around in assless chaps if you feel. Mooning is not illegal either. Sooooo, come on by all you lovely females!!!

(I'm just playin around, please don't rip my head off)

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 13:10

Dekalong is correct. I indeed grew up in back ass NC. But some of the impressions I left with were for good reason.

I'll stop throwing God around like Candy Corn and get right to the matter.

I am a man, I like girls. This is how my brain functions. Testosterone and other male hormones course through my lyph system. They stimulate my neural regions making woman attractive to me. As I'm sure estrogen and progestrogen (sp?) make men attractive to women.

This is a scientific (like that, I can flip right into Agnostic views as well) fact.

Given that abnormalities can occur during pregnancy, over time, or by exposure to chemicals [lead paint for instance] among other things, I would not say that you are 100% accurate about your "Gays are born that way" comment.

I am not homophobic. In fact I have expressed my views face to face with many homosexuals. I get nearly the same response from them as I do here. That doesn't change my view on the subject, just as it didn't change my vote for Bush.

One gay friend of mine "Robby", hid his lifestyle from me, cause he knew my beliefs on the subject. When he finally admitted who he really was, I was shocked - he had 2 kids and a wife. But in NC as Dekalong said, being gay is not readily accepted. He turned gay after years of an internal struggle. I feel his chemical balance affected his wellness. He might have been better off had he been born a woman. Not saying all gays are really women. Just my friend Robby.

Another lesbian friend of mine turned gay around the age of 28 after struggling with being molested at a young age. She even said she would go straight if the right man came along.

Explain that one to me.

Another friend of mine was born a boy, with all the internal feelings of a woman. More like a trans gender type person. He couldn't raise the money to get an operation, but dressed like a woman anyways.

So you see, it's not like I woke up from a Klan meeting one day and said, "Hey we hate jews[my wife is a jew], blacks and spicks, why not add gays to the mix???"

Never happened that way. I just plain don't understand the ability to be a man and look at another man in rear and say I love you.

That would have to be one pretty sweet rear.

delakong · Post by **delakong** » 25 Apr 2005 13:19

delakong wrote:Blow jobs are illegal in NC and so is any other position ather than the missionary...you should know that Damon, you're from here. I bet you've commited more than your share of crimes against nature while you grew up here (you did grow up here, right?). I'm reporting you to the SBI (edited out inflammatory insult)!!! You're goin down!

Aw, come on!!! You really didn't need to edit that. It was joking around and I'm sure everybody did/would take it that way. That wasn't an "inflammatory insult" it was friendly kidding. Now everybody's gonna think that it was alot worse than MF. I know what was there and I think it was really bad. What seems worse (edited out inflammatory insult) or M.F. spelled out?

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 13:22

OK I realise that no matter how I try to defend my position, someone has a quick and witty remark:

Can't use God = That would make me a hypocrit
Can't use Science = Already choose God
Can't be a man = That's discriminatory
Can't shoot em = That would be illegal and REALLY WRONG
Can't join em = Already picked Hetero
Can't change em = They be who they be

So how then can I make my position known without any of those listed above. HMMM ... I know, I'm an artist so I'll use artist speak.

"I simply don't like the asthetics of it all!"

Whewww... Dodged a bullet there.

Can we all agree that Damon simply doesn't like the asthetics of it all, so we can get back to important matters like the OC and which footbag stalls better?

~Threw taking a beating

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 25 Apr 2005 13:29

delakong wrote:Aw, come on!!! You really didn't need to edit that. It was joking around and I'm sure everybody did/would take it that way. That wasn't an "inflammatory insult" it was friendly kidding. Now everybody's gonna think that it was alot worse than MF. I know what was there and I think it was really bad. What seems worse (edited out inflammatory insult) or M.F. spelled out?

I know it and you know and I'm sure a lot of people know it. However, today I have received too many PM's and too many e-mails about too much stupid shit. I've been totally lax on moderating and so have all of the moderators. In general it's worked out fine, but I have spent the last 2+ hours on this shit when I should be doing the last 3 weeks worth of homework that I need to do.

I'm pissed off at the way things have gone over the last several days and I am filled to the brim with Zero Tolerance.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 25 Apr 2005 13:32

FlexThis wrote:And for the Bible beaters - I NEVER SAID I WAS DIE-HARD CHRISTIAN.

So please stop quoting the bible.

Ummm... you've come close enough to call it guilt by association.

FlexThis wrote:No thanks! I only need book, I think you know which one.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 13:41

That was in response to Cameron's library list of Atheist novels.

Not to be confused with associative guilt. I just didn't want to read them all

.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 25 Apr 2005 13:55

"I simply don't like the asthetics of it all!"

See, if you'd just said that at the beginning all of this could have been avoided. We're all entitled to our opinions, but calling people fags and saying that sodomy is a "crime against nature" is going over the top.

Obviously I still have some issues with the hilarious things you say

Given that abnormalities can occur during pregnancy, over time, or by exposure to chemicals [lead paint for instance]

being just one example, but at this point it's simply not worth arguing about.

I just plain don't understand the ability to be a man and look at another man in rear and say I love you.

That's the thing, nobody is asking you too. Nobody is waving their thing in your face, nobody is telling you that you have to come to their gay marriage. I just don't understand why somebody else being gay affects you so much. Obviously it means a hell of a lot to you or you wouldn't get so worked up about it.

This seriously isn't meant as flame-bait, I'm just fairly confused as to why somebody elses personal life causes you so much grief?

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 25 Apr 2005 14:07

You're right!

And it only took me 4 days to realize how I truly felt about it. I guess I wanted some authoritative backing to justify my feelings. But it all amounts to bub kiss as you all have so snidely pointed out.

I have been hit on many many many times. I wasn't always an over-the-hill over-weight freestyler. I use to be lean and mean.

But regardless, I shouldn't let my past experiences affect my relationships on this forum.

Sometimes I just need to reason things out. And sometimes they are more vocal than they need to be.

I'll try harder to keep it to myself.