On Religion

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 25 Apr 2005 17:43

This thread is intended to discuss several major religions and unearth the beliefs of people on this forum who consider themselves part of those religions. I am Jewish. While I do not practice Judaism on a weekly basis, I consider myself Jewish and I am proud of it.

One of the things I like MOST about Judaism is that Jews are free to interpret the teachings of the Old Testament as they wish- there is no "right" or "wrong" way to interpret the words of the Torah (Old testy). Additionally, the Jewish religion does not impose the belief that the Jewish religion should be imposed upon others- the active "conversion" process of people from other religions is non-existant in Judaism. I respect this immensely.

Lastly, I am saddened when I hear people believe that others are inferior to them because they have different religiious beliefs. For example, it pains me when a Christian prays for my soul because I am jewish. It pains me to hear some people say I will go to hell because I believe in the wrong thing. It pains me to hear that there is only one correct way to approach G-d and live a righteous life. personally, I believe that a person may lead a righteous life and be completely areligious (without religion).

Please respons on topic.
Please respond with how you feel about "conversion."
Please respond with how you feel about interpreting the Bible.
Please respond with how you feel about people who practice other religions.
Please respond if you know that your religion is the "right" one and that others are "wrong."

Please DO NOT RESPOND if you believe that what you will write will be offensive to forum readers, will be personally offensive to me, or will personally attack anyone here.

Jeremy Mirken . . . searching for answers

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 25 Apr 2005 22:46

Maybe this isn`t the best way to kick off a serious discussion but...

Senor Grommet wrote: the words of the Torah (Old testy).

Oh man... that was the greatest. I`m crying here. He called the Torah `old teste.` Shit, I`m still laughing

carl winslow · Post by **carl winslow** » 25 Apr 2005 23:07

Why did you write out God, G-d? is it a Jewish thing? I think one of my profesors who was Jewish used to write God like that. Im thinking its because in Hebrew they used to write and leave the vowels out? (which i heard is why some parts of the bible have shakey translations) is that correct?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 26 Apr 2005 00:52

Hmm, I like your philosophy on religion. Actually I love it when people try and convert me to their religion but I hate the history of Christianity in particular with it's assimilation of many cultures around the world. I have read much of the bible and think it has a lot of good messages in it. However personally I believe that it's pretty obvious that most of the events didn't physically happen. Too many of the stories are too good as analogies to have really happened and of course fairly unbelievable. I think other religions have just as many (if not more) good points to them as Christianity. In particular I think if I was religious, I'd be a Muslim - I find much in that religion easy to identify with. Obviously Islam is given a very bad rep - but go and study it yourself, rather than reading the lies that you hear all the time. “Islam” literally means “peace” – and my interpretation of it would be much more in those lines than against them. Violent Muslims are a very small proportion of all Muslims and the ones I have met are some of the nicest people I know.

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 26 Apr 2005 01:50

my favorite thing about being jewish is that i can look at the bible and see it different than my preacher cousin does. and the fact that he will come to me to see my opinion and talk about it with me and ask me stuff. and the fact that sometimes i can look at it and not find g-d there and tell my friends that its a book that teachs how not to be a putz just like that. me personally can function as a human without g-d. does that mean im a aethiest no just that i can see how others can do it, and christians likewise. my g/f is a baptist and we talk about differences in our religions and its great cause she can believe whatever she wants shes a good person and im a good person "id like to think" and life good for us. i personally dont belive in heaven or hell i think lifes a great gift and its all i need. my meaning of life is a easy one "live" its in the dictionary life is living breathing experencing. i dont want a afterlife either way it would go g-d gave me a great present a good family, friends ect... sry to be jumping around but its 5:00 and im tired.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 26 Apr 2005 07:23

One of the things I like MOST about Judaism is that Jews are free to interpret the teachings of the Old Testament as they wish- there is no "right" or "wrong" way to interpret the words of the Torah (Old testy).

Technically Christianity doesn't either. But to say this sort of thing has never happened in Judaism is completely false. Otherwise there wouldn't have been the Pharisee's and Saducee's amongst many many other Jewish sub-groups. But yea I guess it is more common in modern day Christianity, just because it is the bigger religion.

"We both read the Bible day and night, but he readst back where I readst white."

Just like any major human document (IE Constitution), it will be interpreted different ways by different people. The Bible is no exception, and actually the leading example.

Additionally, the Jewish religion does not impose the belief that the Jewish religion should be imposed upon others- the active "conversion" process of people from other religions is non-existant in Judaism. I respect this immensely.

Also in reality their is very little talk about conversion in the New Testament. Jesus never said you had to be a Christian to get into Heavan, but only "Love God, and love your neighbor like he was yourself."

sen · Post by **sen** » 26 Apr 2005 09:40

Anyone know anything about Jehovahs Wittnesses?

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 26 Apr 2005 10:36

yeah jeremy, it pains the shit out of me to hear from my own grandma that I will probably go to hell because I don't believe a man by the name of Jesus paid for all of mankind's sins through his death, and dont accept him as my Lord. I never met the guy, and things change.

It pains me more to hear a christian tell me that I'm wrong for not believing the the bible. I have asked several christians the same question: If I live a good life, if I make myself as best as I can be, and do as much good as possible, but don't believe in Jesus and God, do I deserve to go to hell? All have answered yes!?!?!

How can a person say that to another human being? These questions have seriously disorted my perception of religion, mainly chritianity. What kind of person can say "your a good person James, but you belong with murderers and child rapists" Am I missing something here? Why is it all-in or hell?

And another question, why do people naturally seem to turn to religion after tramatic experiences? My grandma is an example. She was never religious her whole life, as I know. My grandpa got cancer and died 2 years ago. Ever since then she is now all-in christian, taking theology at college, when before she expressed no interest in religion. I see it similar to people turning to drugs after tramatic experiences, other than obvious negative effects of drugs. Looking for that escape from reality

Real question: Is turning to any "God" after tramatic experiences mentally healthy, when before you had no interest in religion? Your mind is in a state of pain anguish and almost anything sounds good to keep your mind off, even drugs. Is it right to change your beliefs to deal with stress? Should you look for help in something that "doesnt" "exist" (interpet however you want, no offence ever intented)

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 26 Apr 2005 10:38

habitat wrote:yeah jeremy, it pains the shit out of me to hear from my own grandma that I will probably go to hell because I don't believe a man by the name of Jesus paid for all of mankind's sins through his death, and dont accept him as my Lord. I never met the guy, and things change.

It pains me more to hear a christian tell me that I'm wrong for not believing the the bible. I have asked several christians the same question: If I live a good life, if I make myself as best as I can be, and do as much good as possible, but don't believe in Jesus and God, do I deserve to go to hell? All have answered yes!?!?!

How can a person say that to another human being? These questions have seriously disorted my perception of religion, mainly chritianity. What kind of person can say "your a good person James, but you belong with murderers and child rapists" Am I missing something here? Why is it all-in or hell?

And another question, why do people naturally seem to turn to religion after tramatic experiences? My grandma is an example. She was never religious her whole life, as I know. My grandpa got cancer and died 2 years ago. Ever since then she is now all-in christian, taking theology at college, when before she expressed no interest in religion. I see it similar to people turning to drugs after tramatic experiences, other than obvious negative effects of drugs. Looking for that escape from reality

Real question: Is turning to any "God" after tramatic experiences mentally healthy, when before you had no interest in religion? Your mind is in a state of pain anguish and almost anything sounds good to keep your mind off, even drugs. Is it right to change your beliefs to deal with stress? Should you look for help in something that "doesnt" "exist" (interpet however you want, no offence ever intented)

sorry if this is offish-topical

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 26 Apr 2005 11:21

habitat wrote:if I live a good life, if I make myself as best as I can be, and do as much good as possible, but don't believe in Jesus and God, do I deserve to go to hell? All have answered yes!?!?!

This is one of the biggest turn offs to organized religion, IMHO. If $DIETY gave us these @RELIGOUS_TEXTS as instruction manuals to a virtuous life, because we are too stupid to figure them out on our own, and someone figures all the lessons out independently and lives the perfect life, as described by $RELIGOUS_TEXT, there will still be a $RELIGOUS_NUTCASE who will say that person is going to hell and deserves it.

I often ponder , Why is it that $RELIGOUS_TEXT emphasizes the action man must take to avoid condemnation to hell, and yet $DIETY isn't pleased with the actions unless they come from someone who gets the lessons from a human claiming to have a connection to $DIETY according to $BELIEF_SYSTEM ?

I think the @ORGANIZED_RELIGIONS places $DIETY'S choice of condemnation into the hands of man and his actions, but doesn't give man the ability to excape condemnation through his actions. It's a system that perpetuates man's need of the church, and places a permanent block between man and the $DIETY he claims to serve. All interaction with $DIETY is brokered by middle men, who just happen to pass around a $CASH_RECEPTICLE every meeting.

My $DIETY is like a radio, with the volume low. You can't hear it when surrounded by pastors who babble on and on, nor over the noise of a singing choir. Much like it doesn't make sense to have a conversation with a radio broadcast, it makes little sense to me to talk to my $DIETY. $DIETY is already broadcasting, and if man so chooses he can sit down, and listen, the answers are already streaming and have been since the beginning of time. I don't believe my $DIETY is changeable, conscious, or subject to influence from prayer or other activities of man.

carl winslow · Post by **carl winslow** » 26 Apr 2005 12:33

when Gutenberg invented the printing press he thought it would be used to print the bible and spread his specific version of his religion, what happened was the complete opposite, now that people could read the bible on their own without hearing it at church people started to interpret it differently.
I think its good to be able to interpret things in your own way to a certain extent, but the danger is that people spin things in any text- (the bible the koran- torah) to back up racism and other terrible things.

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 26 Apr 2005 13:05

Tsiangkun wrote:
habitat wrote:if I live a good life, if I make myself as best as I can be, and do as much good as possible, but don't believe in Jesus and God, do I deserve to go to hell? All have answered yes!?!?!
This is one of the biggest turn offs to organized religion, IMHO. If $DIETY gave us these @RELIGOUS_TEXTS as instruction manuals to a virtuous life, because we are too stupid to figure them out on our own, and someone figures all the lessons out independently and lives the perfect life, as described by $RELIGOUS_TEXT, there will still be a $RELIGOUS_NUTCASE who will say that person is going to hell and deserves it.

I often ponder , Why is it that $RELIGOUS_TEXT emphasizes the action man must take to avoid condemnation to hell, and yet $DIETY isn't pleased with the actions unless they come from someone who gets the lessons from a human claiming to have a connection to $DIETY according to $BELIEF_SYSTEM ?

I think the @ORGANIZED_RELIGIONS places $DIETY'S choice of condemnation into the hands of man and his actions, but doesn't give man the ability to excape condemnation through his actions. It's a system that perpetuates man's need of the church, and places a permanent block between man and the $DIETY he claims to serve. All interaction with $DIETY is brokered by middle men, who just happen to pass around a $CASH_RECEPTICLE every meeting.

My $DIETY is like a radio, with the volume low. You can't hear it when surrounded by pastors who babble on and on, nor over the noise of a singing choir. Much like it doesn't make sense to have a conversation with a radio broadcast, it makes little sense to me to talk to my $DIETY. $DIETY is already broadcasting, and if man so chooses he can sit down, and listen, the answers are already streaming and have been since the beginning of time. I don't believe my $DIETY is changeable, conscious, or subject to influence from prayer or other activities of man.

i appreciate the ambiguity, cameron

well. there is a lot of historical evidence for the events that are related in the bible. there was a man named Jesus, and i realize the debate lies within the miracles and such that supposedly occured, which there is no collaborating evidence for, to my knowledge. but i think it makes sense that the events/miracles are good as analogies...its part of the reason that Jesus performed the miracles. he could have gone around healing everyone in the known world, but mostly the best people to heal were the ones that could be used to prove a point. and of course Jesus didnt go around healing everyone...he said himself that it wasnt yet his time to be known. the people he did heal he often told them not to tell anyone what happened. but, i think im off-topic, or being too specific in my discussion.

i do believe in conversions...if thats the question. i think its a positive experience, and not necessarily caused by a traumatic event. that is often the case, but not always. people dont always turn to drugs after a traumatic event...sometimes they turn to positive things, such as counseling, compassion for people who have gone through the same thing, or religion.

interepreting the bible is one of the most contraversial topics even within denominations of a single religion. many different denominations call themselves 'christians,' but, interestingly, may disagree on extremely important components of their religion. lots of christians dont agree with each other on which parts of the bible are intended as rules for the era of Jesus, and which are intended to apply to todays world, especially with between the old testament and the new testament. some of it honestly isnt key to 'salvation,' in my opinion. the necessary components are belief in God, belief in what Jesus did, in the second coming, and the importance of works (especially evangelism) hand-in-hand with faith. specific rules other than that, involving masturbation, for example, are less important, and may have only applied to a different era, where these rules were actually intended to encourage cleanliness, not the purity of your soul.

thats enough for now.

carl winslow · Post by **carl winslow** » 26 Apr 2005 13:16

i heard somewhere that people who quit drug addictions and turn to religion become addicted to religion. im not sure if i believe it -but look at George w bush.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 26 Apr 2005 13:47

I like this thread - I also like how peaceful it is - no flame wars!

Okay, I think a lot of the stuff that's been said that is worth responding too, but I'll have to keep it sorta short...

Firstly, it's pretty clear that I'm jewish (my username would be pretty fucked up if i wasn't!!!) but i'm very athiest. I believe in the singularity at the beginning of time, and have existentialist leanings when it comes to 'the meaning of life'.

That being said, I think religion is fascinating, sometimes enlightening, often delusional. The problem I find is not with religion, but with how people address religion.

Religions should provide a deep spiritual well in which to discover fundamental truths about yourself and about human nature. Instead people use it as an easy certainty - "the good books says this, so that's the only answer, and that's how I'll live".

But the point of the new testament (less so the old) is not to seperate the right from the wrong, it's to show us how to find and eliminate the wrong within ourselves. Find the log in your own eye and all that, right? Judge not lest ye be judged? He who is innocent cast the first stone?

Unfortunately when push comes to shove, it's an eye for an eye and smiting the sinners.

Also I can't stand proselytizing. Trying to convert people, or worse, forcibly converting people makes me feel sick. Much like Jeremy Mirken, one of the things I love about judeaism is that you have to REALLY want to be jewish to convert. you have to learn to read hebrew, you have to study the torah and to convert you have to prove to a Rabbi that you know enough about judeaism to be jewish.

Why did you write out God, G-d? is it a Jewish thing?

I don't think anybody answered this - the name of god is sacred, and so it's written out in full only where it is sure to be undamaged (like in a torah). If it were to be written on a page, and then coffee was spilled on it, it would be... i don't know the word - sacreligious maybe? It'd be like somebody spitting on a cross.

Which reminds me, does anybody else get confused by crucifixes? Could a christian explain to me how crucifixes don't break the commandments that no images of god be created by man?[/quote]

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 26 Apr 2005 14:17

On a related note to that question, How does worshiping an image of Jesus that Looks suspiciously like Cesare Borgia, relate to the worship of false idols ?

Cesare Borgia (1476-1507)

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 26 Apr 2005 14:33

suprisingly, i agree with a lot of what you said, jared.

Junkyardjew wrote:But the point of the new testament (less so the old) is not to seperate the right from the wrong, it's to show us how to find and eliminate the wrong within ourselves. Find the log in your own eye and all that, right? Judge not lest ye be judged? He who is innocent cast the first stone?

i do agree with this, and its something i am often guilty of, as in, judging others. though, while the bible does say not to judge one another, within the christian community (sorry if my buzz-wording is confusing/pissing people) God encourages Christians to hold each other accountable in a loving, helpful way, but not a judging way. a catch phrase of Christianity is, in fact, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' its an admirable sentiment.

Junkyaddude wrote:Also I can't stand proselytizing. Trying to convert people, or worse, forcibly converting people makes me feel sick.

i agree completely. if you try to force someone to believe/convert to your religion, it isnt even legit. its not right. you arent a christian/jew/hindu/anything just because your parents/friends are, and it is not biblical whatsoever to ATTEMPT to force anyone to become a christian, and im sure there are similar ideas in other religions. good point jared.

regarding crucifixes. Catholics, i believe, place too much emphasis on the "power of the crucifix,' which i personally believe does not exist. you will, however, see many christians such as myself (i mean, christians like me, i dont personally have one) have a cross necklace or chain. there is actually a difference. the crucifix has the figure of jesus still on the cross, while many cross necklaces do not. properly used, cross necklaces are intended to remind christians that christ was not defeated by the cross, or death, and that he rose from the dead. the cross is not considered sacred, its merely a reminder of jesus' power, not that of the cross itself.

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 26 Apr 2005 14:53

Jeremy wrote:“Islam” literally means “peace”

as far as I've researched for myself, "Islam" means (etymological) "subjugate"

I've read the koran 2 (and a half) times and I for sure can say, that it's (for me) not easy to identify with.
it's patriarchy and selective fascism transformed into a kind of pseudo-philosphy (that's an interpretion of mine, if someone really feels offended, hey should PM or email (sicrevolution [at] gmx.de) me) or to summarize it :

It reflects the Zeitgeist of the age in which it has been written (is "Zeitgeist" right ? It's a german word, but afaik it's like kindergarten "inserted" into the english language).

If I'd have to choose a religion, I'd be a Taoist/Daoist.
(btw. : Taoism has got all the pros you stated out in the other religions and I can't think of anything more interpretion-based than Taoism)

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 26 Apr 2005 15:03

Taoism has got all the pros you stated out in the other religions and I can't think of anything more interpretion-based than Taoism

That's very true. i like daoism a lot, but there are still some issues. It's a very mystical philosophy. while it has a lot of great teachings (in the same way the bible does) some of the stuff is just wierd, especially the sex stuff (much like the bible actually).

Have seen the painting of the vinegar tasters? I think that's daoist... actually, it might be confuscian, I'm not sure. Anyway, there are lots of interesting allegories and allegorical art related to daoism, and it's worth investigating and reading about.

thanks for the praise peter, you're right that

it is not biblical whatsoever to ATTEMPT to force anyone to become a christian

I mean, that was the issue with christ in the first place - israel was under the rule of the romans, and all the religious oppresion that went along with that. christ's teachings are an open-ended appeal for an inclusive, community based approach to god.

or maybe i just hang out with too many quakers...

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 26 Apr 2005 15:05

junkyardjew wrote:
Taoism has got all the pros you stated out in the other religions and I can't think of anything more interpretion-based than Taoism
That's very true. i like daoism a lot, but there are still some issues. It's a very mystical philosophy. while it has a lot of great teachings (in the same way the bible does) some of the stuff is just wierd, especially the sex stuff (much like the bible actually).

Have seen the painting of the vinegar tasters? I think that's daoist... actually, it might be confuscian, I'm not sure. Anyway, there are lots of interesting allegories and allegorical art related to daoism, and it's worth investigating and reading about.

thanks for the praise peter, you're right that

it is not biblical whatsoever to ATTEMPT to force anyone to become a christian

I mean, that was the issue with christ in the first place - israel was under the rule of the romans, and all the religious oppresion that went along with that. christ's teachings are an open-ended appeal for an inclusive, community based approach to god.

or maybe i just hang out with too many quakers...

edit: oh yeah, about that borgia/christ thing - I keep waiting and waiting for a picture of christ to show him as the semite that he was. when do we get a dark skinned jesus? there weren't a whole lot of white people in judea under roman occupation!

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 26 Apr 2005 15:09

comastalker wrote:Taoism

Many of my favorite texts were inspired by taoism, or written by taoists. I find this particular brand of "religion" most appealing because it doesn't force any beliefs or values upon me. Taoism slides in nicely to pretty much anyone's philosophy, weather they be a christian fundamentalist or atheists. The texts describe a minimalists religion that has everything you need, without all the pomp and circumstancial fluff.

I don't have any interest in the formal taoist religion though, as the religion seems to focus heavilly on the immortals and magic, which I feel has strayed from the path.

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