Should Shred30 be 30Moves or 30Seconds?

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 07 May 2005 22:14

For the full conversation thus far please read the following thread:
http://www.modified.ca/footbag/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

Footbag is a new developing sport, of course it changes year to year.

One thing shred30 does not allow for is style.
Lon has a slow style, ryan has a fast style.
Lon is forced to do his tricks faster in competition and is not able to do his ducks/spins which he is famous for.
Ryan is much quicker and does not delay his clippers as much, he is used to doing a lot of very quick moves, very quickly.

If shred30 where contacts instead of seconds it would allow for styles of any pace. Obviously this is a good change.

One of the major problems with sprinting and other sports like it is that body type has so much to do with performance in high level competition. Because of the nature of the sport all the runners run exactly the same and train similarly. This IMO is what sets footbag apart from other sports.

In footbag you can have your own style and you can be good no matter your body shape. Sure you cant iron out all the differences in individuals, but why not try to iron out as many as posible? You cant change your height, but height wouldent matter if it was 30 moves. You can change how strong and fit and fast and flexible you are though and the thing you can change the most is how good you are.

One purpose of competition is to encourage people to imrpove, 30seconds encourages people to try to be shorter and have a fast style, even if you like a slow style, sounds pretty silly to me. 30moves on the other hand encourages all the things we should strive for: speed, strength, fittness, flexability, fat/muscle ratio and most of all being the best using your own style.

The aim is to find the best player of any style, not the player with the fastest style.

This is afterall freestyle.

I vote 30 moves.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 07 May 2005 22:26

I vote with 30 seconds because I have a fast style and have a better chance of winning that way...

Actually I think different events are suited to different players - obviously the skill involved in each event is just your footbag skill but working out how you can best exploit that skill to give you the best result.

Some players have developed games that are much better for particular events - probably not on purpose. Other players have developed games that give them a disadvantage for some events. Lon Smith is a good example - you say that Ryan has an advantage over him - but who has the highest recorded score in a competition? Clearly Lon has worked out how to exploit his skills in such a manner that he can score a really big score in a shred 30 despite any "slow style" handicap.

Move selection is obviously important in a shred 30 - the mental aspect of shred 30 in many ways sets it apart from the other events. Yes you need to think for all the events - but I think shred 30 involves the most tactics and planning. If it became 30 moves I think a lot of that would be lost - you'd just work out the best way for you to hit 30 unique moves - I think this takes a lot out of competition.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 07 May 2005 22:35

Some good points

I think your opinion is fair enough.

Jeremy wrote:If it became 30 moves I think a lot of that would be lost - you'd just work out the best way for you to hit 30 unique moves - I think this takes a lot out of competition.

Is that not what happens anyway? Except obviously when you work out your 30 seconds worth of moves you neglect half the moves in footbag because they are too slow, basicly removing ducking and spinning from the game in this event...

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 07 May 2005 23:08

The only reason I have good scores is that I have my run planned out and I practiced it a lot.

Since the Spins and Ducks are too slow I can't "Freestyle" my way to 30 tricks in only 30 seconds. I've never done it.

Anyone over 5'10" has NO chance of hitting 30 tricks.

Anyone under 5'6" will definately hit 30 tricks or more.

If you hit 33 tricks and 2 drops, What 5 contacts don't count?

The Uniques? The drops? The tricks at the end?

What if you start a trick before time is called and then they call time while the bag is still in the air and then you land the trick? Does this count? Would it count if you dropped it? What if it bounced off your body and you still finish the trick?

All these unanswered questions are why I stopped competing for fun.
IT'S NOT FAIR.

IT'S NOT FUN

wHY NOT MAKE IT AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE SINCE IT'S ALSO EASIER TO JUDGE???

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 07 May 2005 23:57

ok so say it is 30 moves.

What happens if I drop, pick up the bag drop it on to a toe>clip>move

Presumably the drop counts as a move, what about the toe stall and clipper?

And what's to stop me pausing for 5 - 10 seconds on my drop to catch my breath.

I'd be happy to try out the change of rules and see how it goes but I think those two issues need to be dealt with too.

I'd say personally that the toe and clip shouldn't count. Regarding time taken after a drop - I can't really think of a solution - maybe set a time limit or something? But then what happens if the bag gets kicked off stage or something? Maybe a system where people can appeal if they think a player paused for too long and a panel of judges can rule on the outcome?

Otherwise players could start with trying to hit as many fearless as they can, when they drop it, pause and then hit what they'd normally hit at the start of the shred. - you'd probably get longer scores but it may well be more boring to watch - since the shred would be broken up into two different shreds.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 08 May 2005 00:07

Your right those issues would have to be delt with. I think that the current rules on dropping should apply, the discouragement in droping would be it breaks your uniques and counts as one of your 30 contacts, hence you lose 3-7 adds for every drop.

As for time taken to pick up the bag, I think the judges could determine if the player is wasting time in picking it up and if he obviously is then a penalty can be placed, could create some controversy though...

lasse · Post by **lasse** » 08 May 2005 00:46

I voted for 30 seconds!

How the hell player would know when he/she has hit those 30 tricks, if he/she haven't planned his shred?? What if he/she drops before last trick? Should he pick up the bag slowly and take a deep breathe (and after resting a few seconds) hit some big single move and earn more scores? It's also much easier to judges to take time than count each trick on competition..

And to tall guys; life isn't fair...

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 08 May 2005 07:59

The time limit gives to competition one, IMHO cool, thing. The pressure of the time. When you drop the bag you need to pick it up fast, or start playin' with another one. But you need to start it fast, and when you hurry you can do a stupid drop. The time limit call for a good mental condition. And a good shape too. Because a players is exhausted after 15-20 tricks, because doesn't have time to rest

Without time limit and contacts count... Everybody could just pick up bag slowly - to rest. Then lay it on toe, take few breaths - it would make next trick easier than with time limit, and all competition would be easier too.

SlashC · Post by **SlashC** » 08 May 2005 09:16

How about having 30 contacts AND a 33 second time limit.

EDIT: I did a little experiment to see how much time difference actually occurs between different heights the bag is set.

For my first run I set the bag to a height between 80cm and 90cm (about 3ft) for 30 contacts. On 3 different trials this resulted in an average time of about 29 seconds.

For my second run I set the bag to a height well over my head which amounts to a height around 160cm to 180cm. This run was to emulate a shred30 with 30 contacts of ducking tricks. On 3 different trials this resulted in an average time of about 36 seconds.

I don't feel like confirming those results with physics.

Now realistically I don't think anyone could hit 30 contacts of unique ducking tricks (except maybe Lon) so a time limit of around 33 to 35 seconds seems reasonable to allow a good amount of ducking and spinning and wouldn't really give much of an advantage to a shorter player who drops. It's already a pretty big disadvantage to drop at all in a shred30 anyways.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 09 May 2005 00:21

Interesting, there does not seem to be much favour for the 30 contact idea!

ted · Post by **ted** » 09 May 2005 09:23

Tsiangkun wrote:They don't shorten the track for the smaller stride athletes to have a 10000 step race.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 09 May 2005 09:46

I actually think they should be 30 contacts with a 35 second time constraint. However, it's slightly easier to judge on the 30 seconds.

There are certain people out there who have little fast styles by nature, Loren Baum, Vasek, Ryan, Jim P. etc. Then there are those with bigger flowier styles like Pete, Lon, Red.
In order to make up the difference in # of tricks, the bigger players have to make it up with more difficulty or change their style to make it faster. I don't think that it should be that way.

As for the whole shortening the length of the track thing... Shred 30 isn't a race and a race has no time limit.

grek · Post by **grek** » 09 May 2005 10:06

And what about Yves... he isn´t small... but very good shredder....

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 09 May 2005 10:39

Tsiangkun wrote:
They don't shorten the track for the smaller stride athletes to have a 10000 step race.

Good Point, You're right. Short people DON"T win this race, & Shred 30 is not intended to be a race. It was originally shred 45.

SOLUTIONS=
1) 35 Second Time Limit
2)Drops count as part of your 30 contacts
3)The tricks more than 30 at the end don't count, but drops at the end do.
(Since shorter people could rest at the end and then hit a big trick)

I'm almost 6 feet tall. When I go dropless with my fastest style I only hit 29 contacts in 30 seconds. 35 Seconds would allow me time in incorporate spins and ducks a little more but I'd still have to try to go fast(which is good).

HOW DOES THAT SOUND.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 09 May 2005 11:05

I'd prefer shred30 time vs contacts anyday. Like said before, the time limit applies pressure to the comp. I haven't ever hit a good shred30 or won a shred30 comp, but I think it's fair and fun. Maybe my best is 100 (4 months ago

) and it's cool because of the difficulty involved with recovering after a drop.

But if it comes to a shred45 or shred35, that would be sick! I would vote for that in a spliz.

EDIT: plus, the difficulty in creating a system of a shred30 contacts would be great to make it "fair". Time between drops/moves would have to be regulated, as other quirks would have to be worked out.

Anyone have a solid plan or proposal as to how these would be ran? That would be interesting to compare pros cons and how exactly each would work

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 09 May 2005 19:28

While I understand where Lon is coming from, I also think he is wrong

here's why:

I guarantee that Lon could hit 30 shuffle contacts in 30 seconds!!!! Just watch Just Shred 2- he does it on that green shred surface.

Secondly, when Lon throws in a duckng move and gets, lets say 4 adds, he KNOWS he is losing slight amounts of time, yet he still chooses to hit this move because he is more comfortable with it tha with performing fast shuffle. his Shred 30 score suffers because he chooses to perform certain tricks that take longer. Now, imaging that for every ducking trick Lon performs, he spins first, thus making every ducking clipper or diving clipper, every ducking or diving butterfly, a spinning ducking butterfly. he would lose no moe time than he already loses but he would be justly rewarded by earning more adds. I believe that this would compensate for the lost time.

My pont is that Lon is only being "hurt" by the current system because of the tricks he chooses to perform. Now, if he upped the difficulty of those ducking tricks he likes by adding spins to already high sets, then the negatives would be counter-balanced by the positives and the system would not need to be changed.

Shred 30 is not and was never meant to reflect style! It is a measure of the most heinous (hardcore) shred, hence the name. When Lon ducks and dives, he simply chooses to fofeit an advantage to other competitors, which he does not need to do but knowingly does.

Splint · Post by **Splint** » 09 May 2005 20:12

While I understand where Jeremy is coming from, I also think he's wrong

Let's alleviate style from my earlier argument and just talk about shred.

It takes longer to do a Tomahawk (Ducking Pdx Whirl right?) than a Blurry Whirl just by nature of the height of the set taking more time to come down. They are scored equally, only one of them costs you more in time. When it comes to Shred 30, one trick is not better than the other except for the time factor. Some might argue that Tomahawk is actually much phatter in shred than a Blurry Whirl. So Shred 30 becomes no longer becomes about busting phat shred, it becomes a matter of hitting tricks that cut down on your time. This means you lose something in the actual value of the shred.

If someone like Lon, whose style is quite versatile, chooses to hit the moves that add value to the Shred but take more time, then he is not being true to the Shred. Whether he can or can't hit 30+ shuffle tricks in 30 seconds is irrelevant.
Telling Lon that he has to up the add level of his 4's to 5's because he takes the time risk is going against everything shred encompasses. IT's not just about small and quick, it's about big and phat. If big and phat means hitting Tomahawk over Blurry Whirl, just the quality of Tomahawk should not be a penalty.

I guess the real question becomes whether you are judging the Shred or the Shred based on time.

If you judge one person on 29 contacts and the next person on 32, then it is not a fair competition. Not for true shred anyway.

BalinorNZ · Post by **BalinorNZ** » 09 May 2005 21:33

Splint wrote:If you judge one person on 29 contacts and the next person on 32, then it is not a fair competition. Not for true shred anyway.

I think this sums up the whole argument.

ptaku · Post by **ptaku** » 09 May 2005 22:52

Maybe the best solution is to give it a try on some event? I'm talking about this contacts limit... This is the only way to see if it works. So everyone who likes the contacts limit better should try to convince some director/holder of the event. But you know that the scorring formula should be changed too? Contacts count would'nt be a variable anymore.

ShredOnLawn · Post by **ShredOnLawn** » 09 May 2005 23:28

I can do 30 shuffle tricks in 30 seconds. & lose the shred because I can't do it tripless.

I can hit 30 Tripless with mobius both sides and paradox torque both sides & lose because I took 35 seconds to do it.

QUOTE "Lon is losing choosing to do ducking moves and losing time for it"
True but that's not the point.
The point is if Vasek chooses to do ducking moves he loses less time for it.

I think the rules I described in my post above are clear enough. I've helped judge shreds before and never once has been done correctly out of the 2 or 3 times I've helped.
It's very difficult to agree on how to count moves, drops and tricks attempted during the last second.
It's also difficult to agree on slop when the bag touches another part of the body during a trick.
It's also difficult to judge "THE" dexterities and incompleted tricks.

The difference in judging techniques and height unfairness are why I've stopped enjoying shred 30 competition. In Seattle last fall I didn't even receive a score.(Which sucks cause it was my personal record).