Turkey to EU?

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 02 May 2005 14:03

I was thinking of tossing another thread up about the EU lately, but this one had a post yesterday.

It's not looking to great for the EU now.

France might say "Non" to that constitution. Don't they need everybody to "sign on" to keep the Union from collapsing?

If only one or two, big ,mainland countries refuse to go along, will the others shackle themselves with the unwieldy document that is hundreds of pages long?

Will they entangle their nations with a "treaty" that demands hundreds or thousands of new regulations and mandates?

I know, I know..... I should concern myself with REAL important topics, like Jacko, and the Runaway Bride, and of course, Social Screwyouity.

-n

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 03 May 2005 01:28

To be in the EU, turkey has to work on their (entire) history, which also includes the holocaust-like massacre on the kurds(sp?). Even today a lot of people are imprisoned and de facto tortured because of only mentioning that topic (I know a few...or did know). Am not against any race since we are all african...evolutionary... but against the turkey governments which still doesn't stand to it's mistakes and still kills a lot of kurds... That's the main problem.

But there are two really bigger problems coming :
1. Software patents (afaik they just became legal)
2. FestderVölker in Germany,Jena (party of the folks). Several thousands right-wing extremists, mostly "national socialists", so called neo-nazis do the biggest party next to our carnival in Jena.

Bijan · Post by **Bijan** » 04 May 2005 20:17

which also includes the holocaust-like massacre on the kurds(sp?).

Did you mean the Armenian Massacre?

I'm actually curious as to the popular Turkish opinion on the Armenian Massacre. The government denies it, at least as a genocidal act.
Can anybody shed some light on that?

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 05 May 2005 01:42

it's still forbidden to talk about the armenian "issue" in turkey

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 05 May 2005 01:43

oh, I didn't meant that, but well, that also ain't that unimportant.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 05 May 2005 12:40

Turkey should not be allowed in anytime soon.

Who knows how many nations might not pass the Constitution as it is now.

The whole thing could crumble, adding Turkey right now is to controversial. The general public must be made to believe that Turkey will be denied.

Let the stupid masses vote on the Constitution first, then shove Turkey down their throats later.

-n

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 05 May 2005 12:54

I am actually recommending that they deny Turkey from the angle of it being in the best interest of the EU.

I ,personally, would prefer that the Union be dissolved. The Union would represent a massive economic competitor to the U.S.

And we don't need to be strangled by China and Europe at the same time.

I just thought ,for some reason, I needed to make my position opposing the Union(not certain members) clear.

-n

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 05 May 2005 12:59

funny.

sorin · Post by **sorin** » 08 May 2005 05:12

Boh... this topic is so weird, i had to write something, first of all i come from a country which had really bad conflicts with Turks, 500 years of wars with them, so you can imagine we don't like them that much. But we don't hate em, and we understand what they are going trough. They may have a history of violating human rights, but the loudest people on this forum opposing turkey's entry to EU come from US, and AUS, the countries least affected by turks, you should remember 2 million dead civilians in vietnam, only god knows how many in laos and cambodia, remember millions of dead in africa from US sponsored wars for natural resources, thousands killed by dictators in south america supported by US, bombing serbia for nothing, guantanamo bay prisoners, treated worse than shit, most of them probably innocentant, and yes Irak dead count is around 100000, now tell me who has a human rights problem! You dont hear about stuff like this in US schools and TV, do you? and EU will survive, and frankly nobody cares if you are gettin suffocated by EU and china

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 08 May 2005 10:30

the US think they are more human because they don't really hide their massacres. But in that point they are right. The biggest problem for the EU congess ain't now, but what happened in the past, since turkey ain't willing to at least accept that past as true.
I don't say they are worse than the rest of the world an regarding human rights, they are maybe the arabic land with the biggest progress (division of state and religion etc.). But failures exist to learn from them, but without accepting them, you won't learn anything. I am german, if anyone explicitly has the right to say that, it's the german folk

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 08 May 2005 10:48

Feel better ,after your rant?

I have to agree that Serbia (traditional ally of the Christian, Western World) was bombed for absolutely nothing.

Thanks Bill Clinton.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im from the U.S., and I could give a hoot about Europe's problems with Turkey's "human rights" violations.

Besides, Europeans have always found a way to ignore human rights, and genocide, if it interferes with their business or national interests.

Will admitting Turkey bring any benefits to the EU?

Will admitting Turkey bring cause any problems for the EU?

I don't know all the numbers, but it sure seems like a big gamble.

sorin said:
----------------------------
and EU will survive, and frankly nobody cares if you are gettin suffocated by EU and china
----------------------------

OK, if you are so confident in the EU, bring Turkey on in.

I'm sure that you have thought out all the ramifications and consequences, and are willing to accept them.

-n

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 08 May 2005 12:40

HighDemonslayer wrote:Feel better ,after your rant?

huh ?

HighDemonslayer wrote: I have to agree that Serbia (traditional ally of the Christian, Western World) was bombed for absolutely nothing.

Thanks Bill Clinton.

bombing anyone is always wrong

HighDemonslayer wrote: Besides, Europeans have always found a way to ignore human rights, and genocide, if it interferes with their business or national interests.

Every state always finds a way to ignore human rights

HighDemonslayer wrote: Will admitting Turkey bring any benefits to the EU?

economic ones, yes.

HighDemonslayer wrote: Will admitting Turkey bring cause any problems for the EU?

econonmic ones, yes.

Well, you see your questions won't help a bit regarding ethic questions.
You maybe forget europeans tend not to think utilitaristic.

HighDemonslayer wrote: I'm sure that you have thought out all the ramifications and consequences, and are willing to accept them.

well, just like I said :
europeans are a lot more idealistic than utilitaristic.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 09 May 2005 07:19

Sorry comastalker, I meant sorin's rant about U.S. culpability for every death, on every continent, since the beginning of communism.

I composed my post before your previous post was "posted".

Yeah, I guess every nation can ignore human rights, sometimes all at the same time. (including the U.S.)

comastalker wrote:
---------------------------------------
Well, you see your questions won't help a bit regarding ethic questions
-----------------------------------------

When I asked about negatives I was meaning ethnic strife, in addition to economics.

I can only go so far as to predict strife, not specify exactly how it will occur.

-n

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 09 May 2005 07:41

well, then I got that wrong, sorry.

The problem of "ethnic strife" wouldn't increase by adding them to the EU, since all changes that follow are economic ones and will mostly result in economic effects. It's more a problem of the Unions image if you know what I mean. The EU sees itself as a new Euroe without wars, torture and mass murder. Turkey in many aspects does not fit that image and that's the reason why people tend not to want them. Regarding economics and social/structural problems, Poland was a much heavier candidate (additionally the majority of the polish people didn't want to be part of the EU as this causes the economy of a state to base more on industrial and service sectors than agriculture which has been the most important one and without the subventions(?) the polish ppl would have problems).

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 May 2005 07:58

sorin wrote:They may have a history of violating human rights, but the loudest people on this forum opposing turkey's entry to EU come from US, and AUS, the countries least affected by turks, you should remember 2 million dead civilians in vietnam, only god knows how many in laos and cambodia, remember millions of dead in africa from US sponsored wars for natural resources, thousands killed by dictators in south america supported by US, bombing serbia for nothing, guantanamo bay prisoners, treated worse than shit, most of them probably innocentant, and yes Irak dead count is around 100000, now tell me who has a human rights problem!

My god, I'm actually going to defend the US - who'd have thought that was possible.

The fact is that while you are probably correct about all that - it really doesn't seem relevant to the topic. Does coming from a country like Australia or the US stop us from being allowed to comment on human rights abuses? I make every effort to mention Australia's human rights abuses when I get a chance - especially the current ones going on - ie. our illegal refugee policy and our involvement in the war in Iraq.

I am opposed to human rights abuses everywhere. That includes the abuses going on in Turkey right now. There are different levels of human rights abuses. But most importantly there are laws on what human rights abuses are - ie. The Geneva Convention and the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. Many things that are in my opinion an abuse of human rights is not legally one or is debatable. For example Australia's involvement in Vietnam may not have been an abuse of human rights under the legal definition - but I have no doubt it was a morally wrong thing to do and had an enourmas negative effect on Vietnam and Cambodia. The reason this is relevant is because the abuses going on in Turkey are clearly illegal and show blatent disregard not just for human rights but for international law. You could easily compare this to the current asylum seeker policies going on in Australia but those abuses are not nearly as horrible.

Yes it's horrible to lock somebody up for 5 years without charge and without them being found guilty of any crime, but in my humble opinion it's a lot worse to use chemical weapons on a person in jail - chemical weapons that leave the person horribly disfigured for life or dead. I have no doubt that if you go to www.amnesty.org you'll find that Turkey has a horrible human rights record. It's not an issue what other countries human rights records are.

sorin · Post by **sorin** » 11 May 2005 10:11

OK, sorry if i offended anyone, but was really pissed off by a group of Americans, not long ago while visiting slovenia. There was five or six of 'em, all looking really greasy and disgusting, they were in a bar, drunken stiff after a couple of beers, so they started touching women, making dirty proposals, shouting about how cool america is, they were warned to shut up, or else! But no, they picked on a guy, that was a bit darker looking, and started to yell get out you raghead, and things which i rather not repeat. Turns out he's turkish, really nice guy, and half of the people in the bar are his friends...
Result:
americans-2 broken jaws, 1 arm, multiple bruisings, end of europe trip
locals-sore fists, even worse oppinion of americans
Please stop people like this from traveling abroad!

I don't defend anyone's genocidal actions, if that's how it sounded in my previous post, we read a lot about history in school, and one topic was on armenians in turkey under Ataturk, and i know a lot about kurds, still being treated like shit. Maybe if they get into the EU things may change, who knows?

I know how it is when people look at you and say he's a foreigner, kick him out, he' s taking our jobs, that is what the problem about turkey is all about, and the fact that the majority of turks who came to germany, holland, or whereever were common workers, and didn't want to integrate into the community, so they got isolated.
Today, turkey is a modern country, lots of educated people,i can say it is more democratic than USA, and it is secular, contrary to common belief, since 1920s (something like that)
I think when turkey joined EU it would be the same as with the 2004 entrees, very few people left the country to search for jobs elsewhere

This was my subjective, unprofessional, straight up oppinion, and if you don't like it... tough
gone to sleep

comastalker · Post by **comastalker** » 11 May 2005 15:24

sorin wrote:OK, sorry if i offended anyone, but was really pissed off by a group of Americans, not long ago while visiting slovenia. There was five or six of 'em, all looking really greasy and disgusting, they were in a bar, drunken stiff after a couple of beers, so they started touching women, making dirty proposals, shouting about how cool america is, they were warned to shut up, or else! But no, they picked on a guy, that was a bit darker looking, and started to yell get out you raghead, and things which i rather not repeat. Turns out he's turkish, really nice guy, and half of the people in the bar are his friends...
Result:
americans-2 broken jaws, 1 arm, multiple bruisings, end of europe trip
locals-sore fists, even worse oppinion of americans
Please stop people like this from traveling abroad!

That's one kind of stories I personally don't want to be part of a discussion like that; not because it they ain't interesting, but because they're completely pointless. I've seen the same shit done by (a lot of) germans, turks, marrocans(sp?), russians etc. (remember satpal ram) but that's not relative to the nation. I just doesn't matter at all.
(no offense)

sorin wrote: ...and one topic was on armenians in turkey under Ataturk, and i know a lot about kurds, still being treated like shit. Maybe if they get into the EU things may change, who knows?

Do you really think that's possible (attention, question may be rhetorical) ? Do you think the turkish government spontaneously changes its opinion and doesn't deny its massacres anymore because it now is part of the EU ?

sorin wrote: I know how it is when people look at you and say he's a foreigner, kick him out, he' s taking our jobs, that is what the problem about turkey is all about

Well, I don't think so. Maybe big parts of the folk thinks so, but not the majority (even in germany) and they aren't asked at all. The govenments decide if turkey may join and the problem they have are problems with turkeys history.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 20 Oct 2005 11:12

Many support honour killings

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News ... 86,00.html

---------------------------------------------------------------
note:

I included the whole story below , because SINCE yesterday (the first time I saw a link about the survey) the BBC.uk story has gone down, or BEEN TAKEN down.

Today, it took me 10 or so minutes with search engines to even find a reference to the survey.

The story itself could be untrue, but I suspect the story has been buried ON PURPOSE, because it might hurt Turkey's "poll numbers", relating to entry into the EU.

OR...............
the Brit who put the story on BBC.uk has been arrested and will be charged with hate crimes.

extra note:

The survey apparently was taken in the SouthEast region. And we know that people from the South are in-bred, hayseeds.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Many support honour killings
19/10/2005 13:15 - (SA)

Ankara - A majority of people in Turkey's largely feudal and mainly Kurdish southeast believe "impure" women should be killed to cleanse the family reputation, according to a survey published on Wednesday in Turkish newspapers.

The opinion poll was conducted by Dicle University in Diyarbakir, the region's biggest city, among 335 men and 95 women to determine how locals view the centuries-old custom of honour killings.

Under the infamous practice, relatives convene a so-called family council and task a clan member to murder a woman relative considered to have stained their honour, usually by engaging in an extra-marital affair.

The practice, confined mainly to southeastern Turkey, has seen women killed even for talking to strange men or requesting a song on the radio.

According to the survey, 37.4% of the interviewees said a woman who has an extra-marital affair should be killed, while only 16% said she should not be punished.

Twenty-five percent said the woman should be divorced, while 21.6% said she should be harshly punished by having her head shaved or her nose or ears cut off.

Dozens of honour killings occur each year in Turkey, which is under pressure from the European Union it is seeking to join to improve women's rights and take measures against the practice.

In a major overhaul of its penal code last year, Turkey toughened penalties for perpetrators of honour killings, which are now punishable by a life term.

Recently, an Istanbul court imposed life sentences on two brothers convicted of shooting their sister dead for having borne a child out of wedlock.
---------------------------------------------

n

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 21 Oct 2005 10:10

Good source.....

To truely discuss this issue we need someone from turkey to suplement our knowledge of the nation. Perspective is everything. At this point everyone debating this issue from North America or Aus is only an outsider looking in.
What we know about this issue is fed to us by major news outlets, which sadly enough are companies which report on things that will get readership and MONEY for the company. This is not to say that the news is lies.....it is just only one side of the story.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 29 Oct 2005 09:58

Yeah, it is just one side. I am skeptical of most "surveys" anyhow. Maybe I posted it because it challenged the idea of Turkey being some "secular utopia".

So if you want EU to have many more honor killings, admit Turkey.

Just because people come to your country as guests, doesn't mean they follow your rules. Don't we wish. lol

-n